Cut and Paste from Facebook

Sunday and Mondays salvage. After receiving a late call about a 45ft Beneteau sunk in 14m of water 2.5 km off Mandurah we headed to our factory unit to reconfigure the salvage boat. After a very early start we were able to locate the vessel without resorting to a grid search. A diver inspection found the keel loose and barely attached. Initial attempts to raise her were unsuccessful with the loose keel making her very unstable. We decided to get her to the surface and very gently tow her at less than 1 knot to calm water in the Comet bay mooring area. We were running out of daylight so she was secured on a mooring and re-sunk onto sand bottom. After some overnight considerations we again had an early start and elected to bring the hull and keel in separately, lots of airbags were attached to try and give the keel less hull some stability and she was very carefully towed to the lifter. We then went out and recovered the keel getting stuck twice in the channel and having to attach more bags to get the keel shallow enough. Big thanks to the Mandurah boat lifter for doing a double emergency lift.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02erzqqtpNMnKBc7dvRaN2c2G78Zo7nGpS9duxDi9pUaV2NquaaA57zAxwmYuARHjxl&id=100075885885061

Yep another Benateau First.
You couldn't give me one. Life is too precious.
At least with other French fall apart boats like Lagoons you are unlikely to actually die.
It amazes me how word doesn't get around. Plenty of Beneteau Firsts and Lagoons for sale for top dollar at the moment.
You would think if nothing else that surveyors would give purchasers a bit of a heads up.

That's an impressive salvage. Kudos to the salvage crew. That Boat hat have been grounded hard to fracture the keel matrix to such an extent. WTH?

Does anyone know the story behind the sinking?

Reading the post, it seems the keel was hanging off from the front like a stubborn tooth that's hanging on by a bit of gum...

Hit something hard in reverse?

Bolt on keels on mass-produced cruising yachts...

Select to expand quote

JonE said..
Reading the post, it seems the keel was hanging off from the front like a stubborn tooth that's hanging on by a bit of gum...

Hit something hard in reverse?

I recently heard (from the repairer, i.e. first hand) of a local example where the keel support grid came unstuck from the hull just through wave action, no grounding involved.

I've seen it before in my life as a surveyor. Keel bolts intact with small washers backing the nuts and 6-8mm glass under the washer. I know this because we recovered the keel. This particular vessel was an older benny First that simply broke free from its mooring and washed up on a sandy beach in a strong nor easter Inshore). Witnesses said the yacht fell over after the second bump on the bottom.

That is why they are called Bendytoys!!!

I have long thought that washers under the nuts of keel bolts are generally way too small. I have also spent considerable time thinking about the condition of keel bolts. This is all irrelevant however when the bolts are secured to a piss weak hull.

The bolts here weren't the weak link as once again (compared to the gigantic bulb and hence weight) the root of the keel is quite small and only sports 8 bolts as compared for example to my Northshore 38 with a considerably lighter keel that sports 12. The loads on the hull at the front and the rear of the root where the hull first begins to tear away are enormous.
The keel simply ripped the bottom of the boat out due apparently to relatively mild banging on sand.

The pictures are interesting and there seem to be plenty of transverse floors. The floors however a look quite thin and it is not clear whether they were tabbed down or simply glued down to the hull. We all know what happens to French glue so if glued it is not surprising that they added bugger all strength to the bottom of the boat when it mattered and allowed the bottom of the boat to be ripped out by the keel bolts.
Even if they were tabbed one has to wonder about the quality control at Beneteau and whether perhaps they were tabbed down well after the resin in the hull had cured and without any roughing up or sanding.
I guess my worry is what do you do when you are buying a second hand boat. Yes you look at the floors and see if they are tabbed down. Or if there is some kind of matrix how that is affixed to the hull and whether if steel it has deteriorated.
What however is the quality of the tabbing firstly by way of how many layers and secondly by way of whether it has a good bond to the hull? Next I guess how thick is the hull through which the bolts pass? It's highly unlikely that you are going to be allowed to drill holes to find out during a survey.

Fortunately there are likely to be many other clues in the construction of the boat which are a bit more visible including the overall weight. I was for example horrified when lifting the floorboards of recent offerings by Jeanneau at a show.

Also fortunately most here are looking at older boats before tabbing gave way to gluing and French production boats don't seem to be that popular on here. Tabbing however gave way to gluing before 2010 so even relatively older boats need a careful route now. At least with older boats bad reputations and incidents have had time to filter onto the internet so that the cautious can avoid suspect models and makes.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
I have long thought that washers under the nuts of keel bolts are generally way too small. I have also spent considerable time thinking about the condition of keel bolts. This is all irrelevant however when the bolts are secured to a piss weak hull.

The bolts here weren't the weak link as once again (compared to the gigantic bulb and hence weight) the root of the keel is quite small and only sports 8 bolts as compared for example to my Northshore 38 with a considerably lighter keel that sports 12. The loads on the hull at the front and the rear of the root where the hull first begins to tear away are enormous.
The keel simply ripped the bottom of the boat out due apparently to relatively mild banging on sand.

The pictures are interesting and there seem to be plenty of transverse floors. The floors however a look quite thin and it is not clear whether they were tabbed down or simply glued down to the hull. We all know what happens to French glue so if glued it is not surprising that they added bugger all strength to the bottom of the boat when it mattered and allowed the bottom of the boat to be ripped out by the keel bolts.
Even if they were tabbed one has to wonder about the quality control at Beneteau and whether perhaps they were tabbed down well after the resin in the hull had cured and without any roughing up or sanding.
I guess my worry is what do you do when you are buying a second hand boat. Yes you look at the floors and see if they are tabbed down. Or if there is some kind of matrix how that is affixed to the hull and whether if steel it has deteriorated.
What however is the quality of the tabbing firstly by way of how many layers and secondly by way of whether it has a good bond to the hull? Next I guess how thick is the hull through which the bolts pass? It's highly unlikely that you are going to be allowed to drill holes to find out during a survey.

Fortunately there are likely to be many other clues in the construction of the boat which are a bit more visible including the overall weight. I was for example horrified when lifting the floorboards of recent offerings by Jeanneau at a show.

Also fortunately most here are looking at older boats before tabbing gave way to gluing and French production boats don't seem to be that popular on here. Tabbing however gave way to gluing before 2010 so even relatively older boats need a careful route now. At least with older boats bad reputations and incidents have had time to filter onto the internet so that the cautious can avoid suspect models and makes.

Tabbing or gluing the method is irrelevant if not done correctly however I prefer tabbing. I too have faith in my NS38 hull to keel attachment and the use of clear flowcoat in the bilge so you can any issues if they develop. Not many builders did that. 70's and 80's Australian built yachts are mostly okay.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
I guess my worry is what do you do when you are buying a second hand boat.

.....if it's the Benny a mate sailed on, when you buy it you get it slipped and the yard calls and says "your keel wobbles". Then you spend $80k to stick it back together. Dunno what happened to the surveyor.

Here you go.
Lake Macquarie too - funny place to keep a 2.4 meter draft boat.

Certainly doesn't seem to be any discount for quick release keel.

And what's your point? This person is trying to sell their yacht and here you are with pointless scare mongering.

Was that keel bulb modified / increased?

Select to expand quote

Toph said..
And what's your point? This person is trying to sell their yacht and here you are with pointless scare mongering.

Let me just weigh that up.

A vendor getting his money back vs a few dead crew like say the young doctor and his partner who recently asked on here what type of boat he should buy and specifically mentioned Beneteau.

Yeah let's keep it a secret.

True I don't know which models are affected but this one is the right vintage and has the right style of keel and would seem to be closely related to the 40.7 and 45s which clearly have problems.

Anyway I wouldn't want any relative or friend of mine buying it without a damn thorough investigation and probably a hell of a lot of money spent on reinforcement like the Evans of YouTube fame have had to do. Call it scare mongering but it scares me. Would you jump on it and go to Vanuatu - or round the harbour for that matter? I certainly wouldn't but many newbies don't know this and the price certainly doesn't leave any room for a major reinforcement project after removal of the internal liner like the Evans did.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..

Let me just weigh that up.

A vendor getting his money back vs a few dead crew like say the young doctor and his partner who recently asked on here what type of boat he should buy and specifically mentioned Beneteau.

Yeah let's keep it a secret.

Nuff said really.

All boats can sink and there are more Beneteau models other than the First. Not that I believe the First is inherently flawed.
Why is Beneteau seemingly over represented in these unfortunate situations? Probably because there are so many of them. You only hear of the few that have issues, you never hear of the 10's of thousands that don't.

Select to expand quote

Toph said..
And what's your point? This person is trying to sell their yacht and here you are with pointless scare mongering.

Pretty reasonable and relevant post in light of the the thread.

I assume that the best people to calculate risk are actuaries.

Not only are they smart, they know about all the boats, everywhere, and they know about almost every incident, especially the bad ones.

So if a particular brand of yacht were inherently more prone to catastrophic failure would one not expect to pay a significantly greater insurance premium for that brand? In the way that one pays a premium for a mooring?

Is anyone aware of an insurance premium for any particular brands?

Why, when our mate from Norway drove his boat up a rock wall in the middle of the night did we not have a post called "Another Contessa keel failure"?

I assume that the best people to calculate risk are actuaries.

Yep. They have a tried and true formula.
One boat in one area has a problem = Raise the premiums for all boats in all areas.

RE; cyclone risk up north.

Works every time.

Select to expand quote

JonE said..


Is anyone aware of an insurance premium for any particular brands?

No, but I have heard of keel issues with a particular brand and bulkhead issues with another brand ........ or are they the same brand?

This topic seems one of those that never leads anywhere and always follows the same pattern:

Those who don't like bolted keel designs will praise fully encapsulated, long keels or whatever their preference is.

Those who don't like a particular brand will state that brand is crap despite examples of that brand taking part on whatever the last ocean race was (S2H, Fastnet, China Sea, etc).

We will read the actuarial argument (valid in my opinion btw).

And the list goes on.

IMHO those accidents tend to highlight one thing: Should modern boats, so dependent on bolting have tamper proof indication of damage to structurally significant components? I think they should, reality is: they won't unless it is legislated / forced by insurers.

What is very risky is the combination of materials of somewhat still fluid degradation / fatigue properties (GRP), an ageing fleet, non mandatory reporting, subjectivity of what level of inspection is needed following a grounding incident.

How you manage the risk is up to each own. Those with money and looking to buy a new yach will either accept the risk and end up with a flashy new French /whatever build or buy something like an Island Packet, Rustler or, even beter, a 42RS or 42CC from Bluewater Cruising Yachts (and support the local industry).

Those who are ok with older boats or cannot afford a new one will have to give up speed or live with the residual risk.

In the end, each on its own. Rather than fear mongering, buyers would be better serviced by less opinion and a bit more concrete suggestions.

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..

Toph said..
And what's your point? This person is trying to sell their yacht and here you are with pointless scare mongering.

Pretty reasonable and relevant post in light of the the thread.

With all due respect MB, I disagree. Debate all you want on the merits/failures of specific designs and models, thats what we are all here for.

But what if there was a post on the failings of the S&S and someone posted a listing of Morning Bird when you were trying to sell her? You'd rightfully be ropable.

Toph, that is an argument based on self interest but not on principle. Someone trying to sell a boat will not want any bad words said against their boat type. It is not in their own self interest for anyone to raise doubts. But it definitely is in the self interest of the buyer to know all about potential issues. In a perfect world a fully informed buyer would buy from a fully informed and seller who fully divulges all known good and bad points about their boat. But to stack the odds for one side or the other is not principled, just looking after ones friends who are selling (on Seabreeze). I find this issue to be similar to one on Facebook where someone is trying to sell some boat gear for close to new price. If an experienced person knows that there is similar brand new gear for sale at a similar price is it not bad manners to keep quiet whilst someone tries to flog their gear at inflated prices? I certainly tell my friends when something is overly inflated or a boat is bad news. When things become public then interests become murky.

And just for clarity we are not talking about all Beneteaus although they are not my favorite boat. We are talking about Beneteau "Firsts" of a certain vintage which is a small percentage of their build. These of course are their performance versions with deeper and/or heavier keels of higher aspect ratio and hence smaller roots.

Select to expand quote

JonE said..
Why, when our mate from Norway drove his boat up a rock wall in the middle of the night did we not have a post called "Another Contessa keel failure"?

Because the keel didn't fall off. It staid connected to the boat remarkably well. The fact it was lead helped absorb the impact. If it was steel or iron, the damage might have been worse.

Anyway, I'm not a Bene-hater. There is a good point made about the thousands that have been made and seem to keep their keels on. It would be nice to see the stats on failures per thousand. There is another good point about getting good surveys.

The question about choosing between a Beneteau and a Contessa is academic for me, as I'm not about to buy either. However, if I was to get into proper blue water cruising and sails-like-its-on-rails, it would be the Contessa. If I were to be larking about in the tropics with company it would be the Bene with the larger accommodation. Or, spend the extra and get something that does both well - maybe the BWCY 42ft (but I am biased). Pipe dreams.

The police approve Beneteau.

From an engineering point of view, the washers under the keel bolts look all wrong. Square ends, no taper, and short. Hull fail line aligns with the end of the washers. Basic engineering design 101.