As I review boats in the price bracket I note that there are a few that have been built for inshore racing that have no anchor locker on the foredeck. do these get reasonably retrofitted or is it simply another criteria where you just "move on" to the next?

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JonE said..
As I review boats in the price bracket I note that there are a few that have been built for inshore racing that have no anchor locker on the foredeck. do these get reasonably retrofitted or is it simply another criteria where you just "move on" to the next?

It's more of a personal preference and has nothing to do with seaworthiness except maybe having a chain locker further astern and low down beats an anchor locker right at the bow. Then some people fit oversize anchors and carry extra chain right forward in lockers that really effect performance. Also depends on where the boat was built. Different places have different preferences. My SS34 is fairly seaworthy and was assembled in South Australia so carries the anchor on a separate roller on the starboard side.

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JonE said..
As I review boats in the price bracket I note that there are a few that have been built for inshore racing that have no anchor locker on the foredeck. do these get reasonably retrofitted or is it simply another criteria where you just "move on" to the next?

Personal choice, depends on size of boat and how much you anchor.
I took the anchor locker out of Defiance as one installed after launch was very poorly down and caused about $5k worth of repair work as drain was through stem and not sealed so part of the stem has to be repaired.

On a small boat I hate the weight of the anchor and chain in the very end of the boat as sailing in waves it is awful, but that is me.

I just use either as large PVC bag (usually a Burke blue bag) or a flexi bucket to stow the anchor gear where weight is better.

If retro fitting , usually easy to do it a forward bulkhead.

but try to fit one further aft near front of mast if possible to get the weight back with windlass further back as well.

Yes, i know a bit purist but i like the boats to sail at their best as they are not designed to have say 50kg in the end of the bow of a 30 footer.

but as i said just me.

Unfortunately there is no easy answer to ideal anchor locker arrangements.
The simple answer to the original question is yes it is might be relatively easy to glass in a bulkhead behind the stem on most boats to define an anchor or chain locker (or anchor +chain locker) although if the front v-birth is part of a nice internal liner this might have to be cut and might interfere. The locker has to be drained so that too must be considered although might be a simple as a hole out the topsides at half height or above the waterline if the compartment is too have a floor (my trailer sailer -which is pretty much a sports boat - has no floor in the locker but a hole out the upside down prism shaped bottom which is below the waterline).

A proper anchor set up involves chain that weighs more than the anchor and chain cannot be stored above deck whereas an anchor can be.
If the boat does not come with an anchor locker it should be possible to store the chain in a locker that is fabricated with an access panel on the inside from the V-berth and a shrouded hole in the deck for the chain to drop down into. This means no need to cut out a large ugly triangle from the deck big enough to pass the anchor. This cut out should also be sealed and I have never seen this done well and usually an ugly cut out with a jig saw line and poorly matching gel coat that is obviously home made. I would avoid having to do this deck cut out at any cost but I would be happy to have an aftermarket chain only locker with the anchor stored on a bow roller or removed to another locker further aft when no use is anticipated.

I look at an anchor as a very important safety item even when anchoring is not planned and the ability to drop it an at a moments notice if an engine fails near a lee shore with the sails down could be priceless. Not really an issue when day sailing in my home harbour but a must have when cruising unfamiliar areas. Yes it is detrimental to have all that weight hanging over the bow but removal of the anchor aft when in home waters goes some way towards mittigating that problem. Serious sacrifices in headroom would probably have to be made to remove an anchor locker back nearer the mast and indeed compromises to the front v-birth in many other cases.

I really like Lydia's points. As an ex racer, I love the feeling of a boat moving with the seaway, but not hobbyhorsing. Putting a single person forward on a 30-32 footer makes a HUGE difference to how the boat sails to windward. So for me, getting the chain back, making sure you have an easy way or removing the anchor and reducing weight in the ends as much as possible pays massive dividends in motion.

I cringe at the Youtubes who wax lyrical about building heavy stuff at the ends of the boat. I wouldn't want to sail those boats uphill in waves.

Hi Jon.
Interesting topic.
If you get a boat with out an anchor well you will have to store the anchor (if you choose to have one ) somewhere.
Lydia has suggested "I just use either as large PVC bag (usually a Burke blue bag) or a flexi bucket to stow the anchor gear where weight is better."

That might be ok for the chain and rode but you will still have the anchor to store.
A fisherman or fortress will break down and be stored under a bunk. Or I should say under junk in the bunk and it will be a real pain the set up and deploy. I know because I have done this.
The newer modern anchors like a Mantis etc are really odd shapes and take up a lot of space. That is why people (like Ramona) store them (ready to deploy ) o the bow.

You might be in a place where you don't see yourself anchoring often.
However, if you are motoring home on a windless afternoon in a well used channel and the engine cough! cough! Oh no! stops, you want an anchor to hold you off a shore or in place till help comes or you get the clogged filter changed and the fuel lines bled.
I know because I have done this.

Gary

Sorry should have explained my self better.
Chain locker is forward of mast in the bilge of the boat with hawse pipe from deck above. (Not under deck)
Weight is then low on the boat and back closer to point of gyration.
Had this arrangement of a previous boat that cruised a lot four over 100kg of chain on a 40 footer.
Long passages I would disconnect chain from anchor and waterproof hawse pipe and stow anchor.
Best compromise for me in a performance cruiser racer

Manson supreme because of shape was really easy to stow on the pushpit

Deployment time was never a real issue.


Or think of it this way, number of days your anchor has sat on the bow and how many times you have actually deployed it.
next, when was the last time you looked at the bitter end of your chain.

It's not difficult to fit a chain locker, I've recently completed building one there's some pics on the what did you do thread. Be aware of how much vertical space you have to work with as the chain piles up and will need to be knocked down occasionally, that being said I know an old bloke who has a reasonable shallow chain locker on/in the deck and he just uses a capstan and as he is handling the chain it is an easy job to flake it properly and it stows compact. I looked at the long pipe but in my case it wasn't going to work

My Martzcraft 35 has an anchor locker at the bow with the corresponding weight. There is a backup anchor of similar weight in the lazarette so I presume the boat is balanced bow to stern weight wise at least.
Is the consensus that the boat would sail better if I shifted all that weight down below maybe?

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Trek said..
My Martzcraft 35 has an anchor locker at the bow with the corresponding weight. There is a backup anchor of similar weight in the lazarette so I presume the boat is balanced bow to stern weight wise at least.
Is the consensus that the boat would sail better if I shifted all that weight down below maybe?

Weight in each end increases pitching moment
think of it like a see-saw which it is

to sail best move weight centre and as low as possible

Why you also reduce weight aloft

Thanks all - great thread.

I like the idea of the flexible "burke bag" to stop all the **** from the chain getting into the bilge.

Also the idea that the anchor fairlead could be an easy fitting for quick and safe deployment whilst not necessarily needing to keep the chain in a locker.

And finally the reminder that it's a performance bonus to have the chain down low.

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Trek said..
Is the consensus that the boat would sail better if I shifted all that weight down below maybe?

Yes. Imagine a see-saw with a fat bloke at each end, and the force you'd need to apply to accelerate it up or down, even though it's balanced. Now imagine they are both sitting right next to the fulcrum - less force will be required to attain the same acceleration.
Centring the weights lowers the polar moment of inertia, for those who like to talk dirty.

Cheers, Graeme

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wongaga said..

Trek said..
Is the consensus that the boat would sail better if I shifted all that weight down below maybe?

Yes. Imagine a see-saw with a fat bloke at each end, and the force you'd need to apply to accelerate it up or down, even though it's balanced. Now imagine they are both sitting right next to the fulcrum - less force will be required to attain the same acceleration.
Centring the weights lowers the polar moment of inertia, for those who like to talk dirty.

Cheers, Graeme

This is one reason in the Merlin Rocket (UK sailing dinghy, 14 foot) the newer boats kill the old ones. The boats all have to weigh 90KG and the newer ones have 20 KG lead at the centreboard casing and super-light bow and stern.

Essentially if you're going over a wave, instead of the bow coming up, the bow goes through. If that chain weights 20KG then that's going to displace 20KG of water every wave you hit. Part of that 20KG will be resistance to forward motion.

A comprise is an alloy anchor with minimum chain on the bow roller ready for emergency use. You can buy them in a triangular cloth bag ready to go, lashed to the foredeck (Manson Racer). Keeping your main anchor ready to go down below to maximise weight centralisation.

I anchor out almost every Saturday night on the SNSW coast and can't be bothered with changing my anchors over ( I tell myself the boat was designed for the weight on the bow -an Arends). I keep the Excel Supreme on the bow roller, alloy anchor in lazarette for a kedge. I think the risk of coming in and out over a river bar with high current and debris (crab pots etc) easily fouling the prop is higher than the weight on the bow.
I'm guessing but I think Ramona's anchor set up is like it is as it's a SA boat where they use traditional anchors hung on the side for anchoring in ribbon weed.

Many years ago we had a liveaboard here on a Triton 24. He had the usual oversized anchor and full anchor road of chain in the anchor well. My mate gave him a hand to sail back up to Sydney. He said it was unpleasant to sail while the weather was nice. Just short of Port Hacking a Southerly caught them up and he thought he was going to die!

And that brings about the question what will the vessel be used for ? And what is the operating area ? Ie cruisers aren't generally going to be beating to windward but will be anchored regularly......

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wongaga said..

Trek said..
Is the consensus that the boat would sail better if I shifted all that weight down below maybe?

Yes. Imagine a see-saw with a fat bloke at each end, and the force you'd need to apply to accelerate it up or down, even though it's balanced. Now imagine they are both sitting right next to the fulcrum - less force will be required to attain the same acceleration.
Centring the weights lowers the polar moment of inertia, for those who like to talk dirty.

Cheers, Graeme

Talk dirty baby, it will help people understand the limitations of their boat and importantly themselves.
it is all about the science at the end of the day.

I am going to offend a heap of people now, but anyway they deserve it.

If you don't sail upwind you never end up on a windward shore.
If you only sail downwind you only ever end up on a leeward shore.

Think about it a bit!

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lydia said..
I am going to offend a heap of people now, but anyway they deserve it.

If you don't sail upwind you never end up on a windward shore.
If you only sail downwind you only ever end up on a leeward shore.

Think about it a bit!

sounds like a flat earth theory to me

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cammd said..

lydia said..
I am going to offend a heap of people now, but anyway they deserve it.

If you don't sail upwind you never end up on a windward shore.
If you only sail downwind you only ever end up on a leeward shore.

Think about it a bit!

sounds like a flat earth theory to me

Sounds more like a quote from Zen Bhuddism to me.

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lydia said..
I am going to offend a heap of people now, but anyway they deserve it.

If you don't sail upwind you never end up on a windward shore.
If you only sail downwind you only ever end up on a leeward shore.

Think about it a bit!

We can tell you aren't a big cat sailor :-).

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Ramona said..
Many years ago we had a liveaboard here on a Triton 24. He had the usual oversized anchor and full anchor road of chain in the anchor well. My mate gave him a hand to sail back up to Sydney. He said it was unpleasant to sail while the weather was nice. Just short of Port Hacking a Southerly caught them up and he thought he was going to die!

Bet you it had a water tank under the front v-berths as well which is just as bad and doubles the problem. Spent yesterday putting 55 litre bladders under each of the cabin berths in my Clubman so I never have to use the 110l under the v-berth. Refused to use it last time in favour of two ten litre Woolies waters and washing up over the open transom.

When I'm in unfamiliar cruising waters like the Whitsundays however I think I'll keep the 11 kilogram Rocna hanging off the front on the removable Y-frame roller support bolted to my toe rails. Seemed to sail all right last time with this and empty water bladder. Lot finer in the bow than a Triton tho. Wonder what Bill Hatfield did when he circumnavigated his back in the day. I guess when you're in the middle of an ocean it's no big deal to remove the anchor amidships but you would want a decent one.

I'm debating whether to get more than the 11 meters of chain I took last time as I've heard horror stories about wind or tide changes causing coral to cut through the nylon during the night.

Anyone care to comment on the advisability of extending the chain by shackling it to another length (after all that's how the nylon is attached to the chain)? I've got 8 mm chain which is probably excessive for the boat but six millimeter looks so pissy. I like to sleep soundly.

Thanks all for the info. I get the hobby horsing concept. I just need to find a place below to put them if possible.

A quick story for everyone's amusement about why anchor deployment can be needed fast - by surprise. In December I anchored knowingly off a lee shore, but a sandy one so my gf could easily get to the beach in the dinghy. ie. close as possible. 10kt breeze and half meter swell breaking on the beach. The anchor I have is %&* heavy but holds great in sand. No problems. Then a cruiser comes and anchors between me and the lee shore. 20m directly downwind of us between us and the sandy beach. The guy had no idea. Now a worry. When it was time to go I got motor going and pulled up anchor (huff puff need an electric one) and quickly stowed it. Immediately we start drifting onto the cruiser as expected. Still no problem I can gun the engine now. As I gun the engine there's a tinkling sound and a linkage fell off the throttle Morse cable. No throttle at all now and 10m away from cruiser and drifting down towards it fast. At super speed I had to get the anchor outboard again. I didnt even notice how heavy it was Lucky it was shallow and short warp grabbed. Fixed morse cable and off we went when the cruiser had left. The moral is some times you can need the anchor fast.

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julesmoto said..

lydia said..
I am going to offend a heap of people now, but anyway they deserve it.

If you don't sail upwind you never end up on a windward shore.
If you only sail downwind you only ever end up on a leeward shore.

Think about it a bit!

We can tell you aren't a big cat sailor :-).

Not right actually just there a lot of crap multis around.
Good ones go upwind just fine
Although tris are best

Of course the best way around this conundrum is to have a cat. My cat has an anchor on the bow roller (an old fashioned bow roller so you can grab the anchor and take it off if needed) and then a 4 metre length where the chain is pulled back to the middle of the boat about 1 metre in front of the mast. The anchor locker is back here with the weight of the chain and windlass too along with spare anchor and chain, where it contributes far less to rotational inertia. But monos and tris have hassles using a nice piece of interior for stowing anchor stuff so they usually place the whole shebang far forward. But my cat sails really nicely to windward, like really well and considering that great racers like Ian MacDiarmid used to even mouse wire halyards with thin line (to reduce pitching moment on long windward races) I think that it is worth while remembering why race boats feel so nice going to windward and to try and do some of the same IF you want to be able to sail sweetly to windward. The attached photo has probably been shown before but we are starting a nice 45 mile sail to windward for the day after hundreds of miles of windward sailing to get to Percy from Lizard. The racer in me kept the solar arch low and light, the dinghy light, the water tanks in the middle, no cockpit dodger, the anchor stuff in the middle and more, so she sails really nicely to windward and we have a great day.

BUt when I raced a nice 14 metre cruiser/racer cat, a really experienced multi sailor/builder/surveyor and I asked the owner if we could take the anchor off the roller and stow it aft in the locker. He said no, he wanted it available, even in a race. I tend to leave mine on the roller too and only take it off when doing serious upwind sailing or crossing Bass Strait.

If I was building a tri or mono I would seriously think of having a system where the anchor chain goes to somewhere aft of the vee berth, a locker to one side, balanced by water tanks or something else, into a nice tall locker with a pump under a slotted floor and venting out the deck. If you think this is making a big deal out of nothing, get a fat friend or two to sit on the pulpit and stay there next time you are offshore. The boat can become a bronco. If it doesn't then you don't have to worry.

Not hard to do, my boat came like this, an anchor locker in the typical place when coastal cruising. When doing blue water passages, pull the chain through the secondary hause pipe at the top of the chain locker with an S bend water trap. The 80m of chain is pulled back to the base of the main bulkhead underneath the V berth. Takes 20mins and the chain mass is pulled back a long way and your choice if you leave the anchor up front or not.

Just out of co-incidence there is a bloke on Marketplace selling " Super strong high quality carry bags" which would make good chain bags even if to stow your extra chain for the second anchor.

No affiliation with him.

+ RTM have right size waterproof/tough duffle bags that are ideal - have anchor/chain/warp in one + has long/short carry straps - better than fishbox !

I cruised all around Bass Strait on Currawong without an anchor locker. Had 40' of chain in a bag that was stored down low. Bit of effort to drag it up to the bow each time, but was manageable. Having said that, the first thing the new owner did was put in a windlass !

A bow roller is critical, its quite hard to bring up the chain in poor conditions without one.

If you go down this path, its also important that your crew buy into the no windlass/anchor locker business.

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Andrew68 said..

If you go down this path, its also important that your crew buy into the no windlass/anchor locker business.

or give them the opportunity to "Buy into" the windlass business, literally