These new AC boats look fantastic!
www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11946082
Ballasted foils, what a great idea!

Well, I think it's the worst of all worlds combined - all the bad points of a mono combined with the problems of a cat, the flaws of a canter, and the drawbacks of a foiler. And it's also contrary to the history of the AC, which has traditionally been NOT been about leading edge design - that's just PR hype, as any true analysis of the development of sailing technology shows.

The sport has been shrinking quite badly ever since it embraced the "speed is the future" concept about 20 years ago, and started following windsurfing down that rathole to oblivion. Making the sport and its image more expensive and less accessible is the key to killing it.

The funny thing is that from what I hear, the kitefoilers were about as fast as the foiling cats and could be as fast as this beast, or faster. So for all the spinning around, we're still in the same situation that we were decades ago when Hobies could sometimes pace or beat 12 Metres.

I think its is better than the cats....at least it brings back the concept of match racing , which I thought was what the cup was about

I liked the tacking duels, where it was more about the skills and tactics of the crew, combined with boat speed that determines the result.

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Chris 249 said..
Well, I think it's the worst of all worlds combined - all the bad points of a mono combined with the problems of a cat, the flaws of a canter, and the drawbacks of a foiler. And it's also contrary to the history of the AC, which has traditionally been NOT been about leading edge design - that's just PR hype, as any true analysis of the development of sailing technology shows.

The sport has been shrinking quite badly ever since it embraced the "speed is the future" concept about 20 years ago, and started following windsurfing down that rathole to oblivion. Making the sport and its image more expensive and less accessible is the key to killing it.

The funny thing is that from what I hear, the kitefoilers were about as fast as the foiling cats and could be as fast as this beast, or faster. So for all the spinning around, we're still in the same situation that we were decades ago when Hobies could sometimes pace or beat 12 Metres.

i find what you say about Americas cup not being about leading edge design bizarre, as the j boats were and still are one of the most expensive and leading edge design boats in the world and they occurred at the inception of the challenge . These boats to me look like they have combined much better maneuverability and seakeeping ability in a purebred race class though i still believe cruising at sea on foils would be mighty scary and doubt their claims of trickle down to cruising boats.
would love a ride on one though

Sorry BOTY, that's not true according to history. The Js did not occur at the inception of the challenge - they came along in 1930, almost 80 years after the Cup was created. The first Cup boats were seaworthy offshore racer/cruisers.

Secondly, the Js were actually conservative in many ways. They were created under the Universal Rule rating system, which was created by Nat Herreshoff to kill off the radical scow-like fin keelers that had developed under the L x SA rules. The Js had to be built heavily following Lloyds rules, and after one challenge they were changed again so they had to carry full accommodation and have heavier masts. So compared to the preceding classes, the Js were very heavily restricted and in some ways old fashioned.

The J class owners and designers noted that they actually followed the smaller boats in development, rather than leading it. For example, Starling Burgess and Vanderbilt took ideas from the smaller M Class and applied them to Js. Uffa Fox and others noted that the smaller boats like 6 Metres led the way in the change from triple headsails to one genoa; Uffa specifically noted that the smaller boats would always lead the way because experiments were less risky and cheaper.

The same thing happens all the time with the AC. Cats were racing in the 1880s, but didn't make it into the Cup for 100 years. There were bermudan rigs in the 1890s, but they only made it to the Cup around 1930. The 12s were heavy boats made of alloy when ocean racing maxis like Condor II were lightweight foam-sandwich structures. Mylar sails were used in Stars, Solos and other boats years before they were used in the AC. Planing hulls were used in small boats a century before they made it to the AC (if they ever really did) and in offshore maxis 20 years before they were used in the AC. Modern spinnakers arrived in the AC years after they were used in small boats. Same with wing masts, assymetrics, bendy spars, wingsails, etc etc etc.

Some people point to Australia II as an advance, but before she was even thought of the French were racing the Atlantic on giant foiling trimarans with wingmasts. They were not only vastly faster than the heavy tin 12 Metres, but vastly more modern. The IOR boats of the same time were light displacement Farrs and the like, much more modern than A2. The AC has almost never led the way.

Edit - here's another example of a boat that was far in advance of the AC - Outlook from around 1900. She was about 50ft long and so light that she had cloth decking in some areas, all kept together with a girder running along the deck. She was far lighter and more radical than the Js of four decades later.





Or finally, compare 1965's radical ocean racer (Infidel/Ragtime) compared to the 1966 America's Cup winner. The fin-keel offshore maxi (top) was much more radical and the same length, but only 1/3 as heavy.

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Chris 249 said..
Sorry BOTY, that's not true according to history. The Js did not occur at the inception of the challenge - they came along in 1930, almost 80 years after the Cup was created. The first Cup boats were seaworthy offshore racer/cruisers.

Secondly, the Js were actually conservative in many ways. They were created under the Universal Rule rating system, which was created by Nat Herreshoff to kill off the radical scow-like fin keelers that had developed under the L x SA rules. The Js had to be built heavily following Lloyds rules, and after one challenge they were changed again so they had to carry full accommodation and have heavier masts. So compared to the preceding classes, the Js were very heavily restricted and in some ways old fashioned.

The J class owners and designers noted that they actually followed the smaller boats in development, rather than leading it. For example, Starling Burgess and Vanderbilt took ideas from the smaller M Class and applied them to Js. Uffa Fox and others noted that the smaller boats like 6 Metres led the way in the change from triple headsails to one genoa; Uffa specifically noted that the smaller boats would always lead the way because experiments were less risky and cheaper.

The same thing happens all the time with the AC. Cats were racing in the 1880s, but didn't make it into the Cup for 100 years. There were bermudan rigs in the 1890s, but they only made it to the Cup around 1930. The 12s were heavy boats made of alloy when ocean racing maxis like Condor II were lightweight foam-sandwich structures. Mylar sails were used in Stars, Solos and other boats years before they were used in the AC. Planing hulls were used in small boats a century before they made it to the AC (if they ever really did) and in offshore maxis 20 years before they were used in the AC. Modern spinnakers arrived in the AC years after they were used in small boats. Same with wing masts, assymetrics, bendy spars, wingsails, etc etc etc.

Some people point to Australia II as an advance, but before she was even thought of the French were racing the Atlantic on giant foiling trimarans with wingmasts. They were not only vastly faster than the heavy tin 12 Metres, but vastly more modern. The IOR boats of the same time were light displacement Farrs and the like, much more modern than A2. The AC has almost never led the way.

Edit - here's another example of a boat that was far in advance of the AC - Outlook from around 1900. She was about 50ft long and so light that she had cloth decking in some areas, all kept together with a girder running along the deck. She was far lighter and more radical than the Js of four decades later.





Or finally, compare 1965's radical ocean racer (Infidel/Ragtime) compared to the 1966 America's Cup winner. The fin-keel offshore maxi (top) was much more radical and the same length, but only 1/3 as heavy.

i agree with most of your statement but to say the j s weren't cutting edge would be a gross understatement with most of them only lasting a few seasons due to dissimilar metals to achive the strength also when engineering massive structures like that you will need to take step back because the loads become ridiculous leading to a step back in how you support the rig
and sure the 12s could have been faster but the emphasis was more on sailing one design boats in a match race than skiffs on the harbour though within these one design rules we saw much innovation lionharts ultra bendy mast to steal free sail area australia2 with the flat stern winged keel and far superior spinnaker design the kiwis fiberglass structures that still fitted inside the loyds regs
remember its easy to build a fast boat but hard to build a fast boat within a set of rules and that is what ac is all about and i think these new boats will be very interesting racing even though i can see a regression in my opinion to stored power to lift ballasted boards and once out of the water their greater beam than the ac 50s will allow higher righting moments therefore higher speeds

I hate this new design a lot less than the cats, but I still hate it.

To my mind, a yacht turns into a hydrofoil when its hull leaves the water, and I don't think sailing the Americas Cup in a hydrofoil is beffiting of the trophy.

I wish they had had the balls to hit the reset button and go back to ballasted sail driven keeled monohulls, perhaps a 21st century J. Something big, beautiful and something that requires a large crew of slaves to manage those giant sails.

I really hope the NYYC can win the back the Auld Mug in 2021 and take it back to where it belongs and return it into it's unwinnable self again.

Sure BOTY, there's always been some innovation in the AC, but not really any more than in lots of other classes. Many of the 12 Metre "innovations" just followed old ideas or were related to class rules, like Lionheart's mast or the Kiwi 12s (after all, ocean racers had been made of foam/glass sandwich since the late 1960s).

Incidentally, three out of the four British Js still exist, as do all but one of the four 23 Metres that were converted to race as Js (Cambria, Candida and Astra; White Heather II was scrapped and her keel used in the J Velsheda). The boats that suffered the major electrolysis were the L x SA or Seawanhaka class boats that preceded them. The fact that Herreshoff created the Universal Rule (the rule the Js raced under) to prevent such radical construction is just one more illustration of the fact that the America's Cup has normally been sailed in boats that were behind the leading edge.

I reckon you're right about it being a regression to go to stored power again.

Chris 249: A little off topic but just wanted to let you know how much I love reading your blogs and articles. Really excellent stuff.
i wish the powers that be would take some notice of it and take a more informed look at where the sport is going.
You should do a speaking tour of clubs to enlighten them too.
Cheers!

Well I'm looking forward to seeing these boats on the water I think the ballasted twin foils is an awesome innovation.
Correct me if I'm wrong but having the ballast out of the water will increase it's effective weight right?
Add that to the righting moment of the foil and the leverage of the windward ballast and you end up with a super efficient package.
Chris I've got a sneaky suspicion you are going to love watching these boats battling each other at 40 to 50 knots.

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WA125er said..
Chris 249: A little off topic but just wanted to let you know how much I love reading your blogs and articles. Really excellent stuff.
i wish the powers that be would take some notice of it and take a more informed look at where the sport is going.
You should do a speaking tour of clubs to enlighten them too.
Cheers!

+1. I am also really looking forward to your upcoming articles on IOR boats.

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Agent nods said..
I think its is better than the cats....at least it brings back the concept of match racing , which I thought was what the cup was about

I liked the tacking duels, where it was more about the skills and tactics of the crew, combined with boat speed that determines the result.

As a new class of boat using totally new concepts, there will be massive speed differences between the first generation boats. There will be little in the way of close racing or match racing
That will have to wait till 2024.

It is fantastic that monos are back foils or not and that the number of crew goes from 6 to 12 however I am disappointed the rules were not tightened up in a few areas.
1. Only 3 crew need be nationals . Why not all and make it a true representation of a country's sailing ability.
2. Designers ,builders etc are not required to be nationals. So countries will team up ? Was USA an American or NZ design in the last couple of Cups?
3. Luna Rossa and the New Sponser "Prada" are controlled by the one CEO who also seems to have a big say over what happens . Conflict of interest and potential legal challenges?
Oh well what was old is new again

The crew nationality rules are actually pretty good because the international crew have residential requirements that mean they really have to commit to the country. I don't have the details with me now but I listened to a podcast with Grant Dalton which explained the thinking behind it. I will find it and share it
edit
it's the 4 October sailing anarchy podcast I can't seem to copy the link on my phone but it's worth a listen

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Bananabender said..
It is fantastic that monos are back foils or not and that the number of crew goes from 6 to 12 however I am disappointed the rules were not tightened up in a few areas.
1. Only 3 crew need be nationals . Why not all and make it a true representation of a country's sailing ability.
2. Designers ,builders etc are not required to be nationals. So countries will team up ? Was USA an American or NZ design in the last couple of Cups?
3. Luna Rossa and the New Sponser "Prada" are controlled by the one CEO who also seems to have a big say over what happens . Conflict of interest and potential legal challenges?
Oh well what was old is new again

What period was your point #2. effective? As I seem to recall one of the fastest 12 metre boats built was a French boat designed by Britton Chance Jr. for Marcel Bich and when the froggy boat was launched it was slow and kept getting beaten by the training boat. The way the rules were at the time they couldn't use the training boat as the contender as it had not been designed by a Frenchman.

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LooseChange

What period was your point #2. effective? As I seem to recall one of the fastest 12 metre boats built was a French boat designed by Britton Chance Jr. for Marcel Bich and when the froggy boat was launched it was slow and kept getting beaten by the training boat. The way the rules were at the time they couldn't use the training boat as the contender as it had not been designed by a Frenchman.

Current Period and at least last two challenges.
Here is an extract from NY Times article in June this year when NZ was 6/1
"There is, of course, much more to an America's Cup team than sailors. There are designers, builders, shore crew and more. Team New Zealand has plenty of non-Kiwis in those roles, including key design-team figures like Dan Bernasconi, who is British, and Guillaume Verdier, who is French."
I understand the only restriction is that the Hull has to be laminated in the Country of challenge under the new rules.

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Bananabender said..
Current Period and at least last two challenges.
Here is an extract from NY Times article in June this year when NZ was 6/1
"There is, of course, much more to an America's Cup team than sailors. There are designers, builders, shore crew and more. Team New Zealand has plenty of non-Kiwis in those roles, including key design-team figures like Dan Bernasconi, who is British, and Guillaume Verdier, who is French."
I understand the only restriction is that the Hull has to be laminated in the Country of challenge under the new rules.

Thanks for that, I haven't been an ardent follower of the AC since the new boats and formats came into being.

Thanks WA and EC, er, much appreciated!

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Bananabender said..

LooseChange

What period was your point #2. effective? As I seem to recall one of the fastest 12 metre boats built was a French boat designed by Britton Chance Jr. for Marcel Bich and when the froggy boat was launched it was slow and kept getting beaten by the training boat. The way the rules were at the time they couldn't use the training boat as the contender as it had not been designed by a Frenchman.

Current Period and at least last two challenges.
Here is an extract from NY Times article in June this year when NZ was 6/1
"There is, of course, much more to an America's Cup team than sailors. There are designers, builders, shore crew and more. Team New Zealand has plenty of non-Kiwis in those roles, including key design-team figures like Dan Bernasconi, who is British, and Guillaume Verdier, who is French."
I understand the only restriction is that the Hull has to be laminated in the Country of challenge under the new rules.

I think it was Oz that started the erosion of the rules requiring boats to be designed in the challenging country. Johan Valentijn was made an Oz citizen, I think, so he could work alongside Ben LExcen when designing Australia (1). He later became an American and designed Liberty etc. Once people started swapping nationalities, the designer rules sort of fell apart.

The designer rule was actually only an interpretation by the NYYC of the Deed of Gift, which required boats to be "constructed" in the challenging country. Way back when the Deed was written, "constructed" also often referred to design, because in that era boats were still often built by the designer, who worked from a hand-carved model. There wasn't the distinction between a designer at a computer and a builder with resin on his hands like there is today.