Hi All - I'd be interested to hear people's views on the idea below.
I've been sailing a sloop rigged Nimble 30 on Port Phillip Bay fairly often for three years, but some recent back problems make me want to make the boat as easy to handle as possible. I almost always sail solo, and as I don't race, speed is not a big concern.
Last week I tacked into the wind from Williamstown to Portarlington (about 20nm) with a fairly stead 15knots all the way. I found that two reefs in the main and about 60% of the furling headsail were about right and I was cruising at about 4.5 to 5.5 knots.
The next day, with winds more like 7 knots, I lazily used the main with the same two reefs matched with a 100% headsail. In both cases, the boat felt remarkable balanced.
This got me thinking that to make trips as un-strenuous as possible, I might put on a shorter boom and a dedicated smaller main sail to make setting and dropping the main as easy as possible. I could also build a strong traveller bar behind the companionway hatch and sheet from the cabin roof instead of the bridge deck. (On this boat the downward pressure of the main sheet compensates for having no vang.)
The second reason to do this is to make more space for a bimini or other shade arrangements in the cockpit for when I just want to anchor off Point Gelibrand and catch flathead (which I've done a few times).
The two images below show the current set-up and the proposed set-up (the latter showing the size of a two-reef main).
So my question is, am I the laziest sailor ever or have others tried this kind of thing?
Thanks in advance...

Hi Bluewater.
I can't really see an advantage of making the mainsail permanently small.
For now, you can leave it reefed for as long as you want, then when you have a crew aboard or if you are faced with very light winds you can unreef.
I would stick to the flexibility that you have now
And save a few bob,

gary

Have a look at the Columbia 27 mainsheet traveller setup.

It's your boat so you can do whatever you like.

You say that the boat handles nicely with a reefed main so I'm wondering whether you have a weather helm problem which could perhaps be solved by shortening the forestay a bit and canting the mast forward.

The bimini would definitely be an advantage. unobtainable without shortening the boom.


Apart from the large bimini I tend to agree however that running reefed most of the time might be a better idea as then when you are faced with light winds you have an alternative. Raising and pulling down the main is much easier when you leave reefs in when you leave the boat and you should be able to make the spare reefed sail area quite neat.

That said I'm thinking of a smaller sail for my overpowered trailer sailer specifically for the Whitsundays where it blew like hell last winter. I have already dumped the backstay to accommodate a bimini (my swept back spreaders keep the rug up).
Mine is however a light easily driven boat with a very tall powerful fractional rig whereas yours is masthead and looks heavy with perhaps full length keel. Reducing the main on a masthead rig should have less effect on performance than on a fractional.

Maybe get a second hand smaller main sail first to see if you like it before you go to the trouble of buying and rigging a new short boom. You can always use a velcro strop to hold the clew down if needed

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garymalmgren said..
Hi Bluewater.
I can't really see an advantage of making the mainsail permanently small.
For now, you can leave it reefed for as long as you want, then when you have a crew aboard or if you are faced with very light winds you can unreef.
I would stick to the flexibility that you have now
And save a few bob,

gary

thank Gary - I guess as we go along we discover our preferences. A boat such as the Arends 33, which already has a cabin-top traveller and more cockpit space for shade etc would fit the bill. I guess playing around with what I have is cheaper than moving up to one of those

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Bananabender said..
Have a look at the Columbia 27 mainsheet traveller setup.

Thanks Bananabender. That set-up leaves more space to make the cockpit into an 'outdoor room' for cruising or just better protection from the sun. Port Phillip Bay is vicious sun-wise - I believe it's because we're under the ozone hole. When I was cruising Hervey Bay a few years back I found myself getting less burned that I do down south

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julesmoto said..
It's your boat so you can do whatever you like.

You say that the boat handles nicely with a reefed main so I'm wondering whether you have a weather helm problem which could perhaps be solved by shortening the forestay a bit and canting the mast forward.

The bimini would definitely be an advantage. unobtainable without shortening the boom.


Apart from the large bimini I tend to agree however that running reefed most of the time might be a better idea as then when you are faced with light winds you have an alternative. Raising and pulling down the main is much easier when you leave reefs in when you leave the boat and you should be able to make the spare reefed sail area quite neat.

That said I'm thinking of a smaller sail for my overpowered trailer sailer specifically for the Whitsundays where it blew like hell last winter. I have already dumped the backstay to accommodate a bimini (my swept back spreaders keep the rug up).
Mine is however a light easily driven boat with a very tall powerful fractional rig whereas yours is masthead and looks heavy with perhaps full length keel. Reducing the main on a masthead rig should have less effect on performance than on a fractional.

Maybe get a second hand smaller main sail first to see if you like it before you go to the trouble of buying and rigging a new short boom. You can always use a velcro strop to hold the clew down if needed

That's good advice Julesmoto. One of my old friends in Williamstown sails a Clansman several times a week with headsail only. What I'm suggesting is just one step up from that. If I source a secondhand sail first, and if I'm happy with it after a few months, I could get a smaller lighter boom later on. As for the strop, the foot of the existing sail has slugs in a track, so I guess I could fit slugs to any new sail and it would be fine just to add an extension to the tensioner and leave as is.
I have the boat for sale right now and there is a fair bit of interest, so I might end up back with a trailer sailer anyway. I sailed an RL24 for a few years and I used to sail it with main-only when I was feeling lazy. That's a fractional rig, so it is the opposite situation. And by the way, when I say 'lazy' I'm just pointing out that as a solo sailer I sometimes just run out of puff and just want to sit back and enjoy the sail

Hi Bluewater;
It might be worth considering what shape your sails are in and whether they are up for a bit of TLC or replacement. Baggy old sails will cause greatly increased weather helm. When I replaced my old foresail I was amazed at the reduction in weather helm. The old tub (Compass 28) felt like a different boat, with the trim being so much easier to balance.

But I am aligned with you in being a non-racing solo PPB sailor who reefs very early to maintain better trim and reduce heel with little if any speed penalty. I de-rigged the the first reef and have lines rigged for 2 and 3.

Cheers, Graeme

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wongaga said..
Hi Bluewater;
It might be worth considering what shape your sails are in and whether they are up for a bit of TLC or replacement. Baggy old sails will cause greatly increased weather helm. When I replaced my old foresail I was amazed at the reduction in weather helm. The old tub (Compass 28) felt like a different boat, with the trim being so much easier to balance.

But I am aligned with you in being a non-racing solo PPB sailor who reefs very early to maintain better trim and reduce heel with little if any speed penalty. I de-rigged the the first reef and have lines rigged for 2 and 3.

Cheers, Graeme

Hi Graeme
I don't think I've ever used my third reef - I don't have lines in for it at present, and I don't remember having them in before. So far I have managed to de-power using reef 2 and a bit of spilling the wind by slackening the main sheet. I have had a few hairy experiences though, and one old sailor told me he got hit with 40knts and sailed back to Williamstown under bar poles. So perhaps I will think about that third reef. cheers, Rob

In your circumstance sounds like you just need a mainsail with 2 reefs a bit deeper than normal to cover the same total area as 3 reefs.That way you could have both reefing lines pre set and ready to use? You can leave the first reef in most times if you dont want full sail and a nice "just get me home" second reef.
Don't worry about the slugs along foot, most sails now are loose footed and no problems.

I like, understand the shorter boom advantages.
How about doing that and getting your main cut to suit while still running to top of mask.
Keep 2 or 3 reef points.

Ps Im a fan and will have on next boat a boom furrling main

Sailboat data shows it as a yawl. I would leave the rig as is, and just move the sheeting to end boom with the traveller onto transom or back of cockpit. Then you can add a good bimini. Maybe also a vang.
Good, famous US designer.

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wongaga said..


But I am aligned with you in being a non-racing solo PPB sailor who reefs very early to maintain better trim and reduce heel with little if any speed penalty.

Yes, the PPB sea breeze of 16-22 kts seems a bit too strong for most masthead headsail driven cruisers. I solved the difficulty on my TopHat by removing the baggy old No1 heady for a new flattish No.2 which I designed myself. Then a single reef in the main (sets v. well) and we are good for 18 gusting to 25 kts as the breeze fills in. No loss of speed at all. I use double line reefing from the cockpit - takes less than 2 mins. Always solo.

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MuttonBird said..

wongaga said..


But I am aligned with you in being a non-racing solo PPB sailor who reefs very early to maintain better trim and reduce heel with little if any speed penalty.

Yes, the PPB sea breeze of 16-22 kts seems a bit too strong for most masthead headsail driven cruisers. I solved the difficulty on my TopHat by removing the baggy old No1 heady for a new flattish No.2 which I designed myself. Then a single reef in the main (sets v. well) and we are good for 18 gusting to 25 kts as the breeze fills in. No loss of speed at all. I use double line reefing from the cockpit - takes less than 2 mins. Always solo.

Yet more great ideas. I'm very glad I went ahead and posted my fairly dumb question - it has elicited some very smart answers!

There are a couple of Tophats on moorings close to mine and I think looking at their shortish booms gave me the inspiration to start pondering this question. Sail shape is important, so I guess I'm thinking 'small and efficient' beats 'large and misshapen' especially as, like you, I don't see a decrease in speed with a reefed main - with less heel the boat's faster.

I set up my two reefs (there are three on the sail but I don't use the third) with double-line reefing which works well. I have one on each cabin-top winch. I start with the luff and then winch in the leech.

I'm very interested in one comment above - that modern sails tend not to use slugs along the foot of the sail. So another cost-free experiment for me will be to take the slugs out of the track they're in. They jam at present and make the outhaul tensioning too hard.

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Yara said..
Sailboat data shows it as a yawl. I would leave the rig as is, and just move the sheeting to end boom with the traveller onto transom or back of cockpit. Then you can add a good bimini. Maybe also a vang.
Good, famous US designer.

I really wished I had the mizzen that some of the boats came with. In recent months I've been in touch with Ted Brewer's widow Betty who made this comment: "As far as I know, Jerry Koch didn't change anything to make the sloop, he just removed the Mizzen attachment. Ted was not happy about him doing it that way! The boat balances beautifully with jib & jigger. We often sailed that way."

Problem is, if I add the mizzen I'll have to do the work myself - a local rigger gave me a ballpark estimate of $20k to put a mizzen mast, boom and rigging in place. Argh! But if I did have the yawl, I'm pretty sure I'd rarely bother with a main.

These are the things one can only learn by trial and error. For cruising I think a ketch would be good, but smaller ketches such as the H28s seem very cramped in the cockpit ... so a 36' ketch perhaps (a bit beyond my budget).

Much of Robin Knox Johnston's famous Golden Globe race was, I believe, done under jib and jigger ... so not a bad model to follow

I would leave the sail plan exactly how it is. New mainsail and furling No2. Stackpack with lazyjacks and a boom strut. Keep the low profile mainsail. That boom would be designed that length if the boat design was originally a yawl.
The new mainsail would be much flatter and be loose foot. The only choice to make is whether full battens or soft sail. A No2 is more than adequate for a headsail. New sails will transform the boat and make it a real pleasure to sail.

Might be a bit reluctant to shorten the boom (and mainsail foot) if the boat was designed as a yawl originally, it would be moving the centre of effort a long way forward from original. Albeit this genre of boats are notoriously sail configuration friendly.Perhaps a smaller headsail is the way to go as suggested? Particularly if the existing mainsail is in good nick? Much more user friendly when tacking, hauling in etc.
I am a sailmaker of 45+ years down in Geelong so know the waters you sail in well.

Bluewater, did you mention reefing from the cockpit? If not, it is a must-have for old-man easy sailing.

Cheers, Graeme

Make a mizzen yourself! A second-hand trailer-sailer, or even dinghy, mast and rig would do the trick. Loadings are relatively small, so no fancy attachments would be required. Easy to do yourself. Check out places like gumtree and Facebook market place, and I am sure something will come up.
For the bimini, you could make simple attachments on the cabin top to get the main sheet out of the way. If you are not using the main much, the lack of efficiency would not be critical.

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wongaga said..
Bluewater, did you mention reefing from the cockpit? If not, it is a must-have for old-man easy sailing.

Cheers, Graeme

Yes - be assured I don't have move from the tiller! I used the twin-line system, so I have four lines in all to accomlish two reefs. I have also tended to be an 'unreefer' by which I mean I start out with two in, then let one out to see how she performs and then let the second out if conditions permit. First sign of trouble and I'm reefing again

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Yara said..
Make a mizzen yourself! A second-hand trailer-sailer, or even dinghy, mast and rig would do the trick. Loadings are relatively small, so no fancy attachments would be required. Easy to do yourself. Check out places like gumtree and Facebook market place, and I am sure something will come up.
For the bimini, you could make simple attachments on the cabin top to get the main sheet out of the way. If you are not using the main much, the lack of efficiency would not be critical.

Good thinking, and in fact I've had that in mind for next time she's on the hard. I have a good condition Hartley TS mast, boom and main so it would cost very little to put that up. The main bit of work would be (a) glassing in a suitable base or sub-deck compression post (there's a kind of cavity there at present) and getting the chainplates right. I love the yawl idea as the drive and balancing force to windward are so far back that all lee helm would be removed with even a small sail (I'm guessing)

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BluewaterBound said..

wongaga said..
Bluewater, did you mention reefing from the cockpit? If not, it is a must-have for old-man easy sailing.

Cheers, Graeme

Yes - be assured I don't have move from the tiller! I used the twin-line system, so I have four lines in all to accomlish two reefs. I have also tended to be an 'unreefer' by which I mean I start out with two in, then let one out to see how she performs and then let the second out if conditions permit. First sign of trouble and I'm reefing again

And a tiller pilot of course...........

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BluewaterBound said..

Yara said..
Make a mizzen yourself! A second-hand trailer-sailer, or even dinghy, mast and rig would do the trick. Loadings are relatively small, so no fancy attachments would be required. Easy to do yourself. Check out places like gumtree and Facebook market place, and I am sure something will come up.
For the bimini, you could make simple attachments on the cabin top to get the main sheet out of the way. If you are not using the main much, the lack of efficiency would not be critical.

Good thinking, and in fact I've had that in mind for next time she's on the hard. I have a good condition Hartley TS mast, boom and main so it would cost very little to put that up. The main bit of work would be (a) glassing in a suitable base or sub-deck compression post (there's a kind of cavity there at present) and getting the chainplates right. I love the yawl idea as the drive and balancing force to windward are so far back that all lee helm would be removed with even a small sail (I'm guessing)

Sublime yacht. Assume you are aware of this group - seems like still active as a June 2023 post on it. Numerous good photos of the yawl rig are on it as mentioned above.
www.facebook.com/p/Nimble-30-100081769392674/
As per Yara see here -
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nimble-30/
You would have seen the below
harbormoor.com/boats/boat-models/nimble-30
The mizzen mainsail looks a tad smaller than a TS16 main especially the foot - you can scale off the sail plan.
Compression post and chain plates (eg chainplates flat bar 316 stainless with A4-80 grade stainless bolts to the topsides - or the gunwale moulding could take it with eyebolts?) would be reasonably easy for such a small sail. The mizzen mast is stayed by fore and aft stays from the gunwale width to around 3/4 mizzen mast height as per here;
www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=128380181091310&set=ms.c.eJwzNLIwtjAwMDE0sDQ0NjLRMwTzDQ3BfENzGN8CwjcAAOBsCVc~-.bps.a.128380027757992
If you want post photos if you are going down the yawl route and we can suggest compression post and chainplate designs.

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r13 said..

BluewaterBound said..

Yara said..
Make a mizzen yourself! A second-hand trailer-sailer, or even dinghy, mast and rig would do the trick. Loadings are relatively small, so no fancy attachments would be required. Easy to do yourself. Check out places like gumtree and Facebook market place, and I am sure something will come up.
For the bimini, you could make simple attachments on the cabin top to get the main sheet out of the way. If you are not using the main much, the lack of efficiency would not be critical.

Good thinking, and in fact I've had that in mind for next time she's on the hard. I have a good condition Hartley TS mast, boom and main so it would cost very little to put that up. The main bit of work would be (a) glassing in a suitable base or sub-deck compression post (there's a kind of cavity there at present) and getting the chainplates right. I love the yawl idea as the drive and balancing force to windward are so far back that all lee helm would be removed with even a small sail (I'm guessing)

Sublime yacht. Assume you are aware of this group - seems like still active as a June 2023 post on it. Numerous good photos of the yawl rig are on it as mentioned above.
www.facebook.com/p/Nimble-30-100081769392674/
As per Yara see here -
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nimble-30/
You would have seen the below
harbormoor.com/boats/boat-models/nimble-30
The mizzen mainsail looks a tad smaller than a TS16 main especially the foot - you can scale off the sail plan.
Compression post and chain plates (eg chainplates flat bar 316 stainless with A4-80 grade stainless bolts to the topsides - or the gunwale moulding could take it with eyebolts?) would be reasonably easy for such a small sail. The mizzen mast is stayed by fore and aft stays from the gunwale width to around 3/4 mizzen mast height as per here;
www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=128380181091310&set=ms.c.eJwzNLIwtjAwMDE0sDQ0NjLRMwTzDQ3BfENzGN8CwjcAAOBsCVc~-.bps.a.128380027757992
If you want post photos if you are going down the yawl route and we can suggest compression post and chainplate designs.

Apologies "eyebolts" above should have been "U-bolts".

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r13 said..

BluewaterBound said..

Yara said..
Make a mizzen yourself! A second-hand trailer-sailer, or even dinghy, mast and rig would do the trick. Loadings are relatively small, so no fancy attachments would be required. Easy to do yourself. Check out places like gumtree and Facebook market place, and I am sure something will come up.
For the bimini, you could make simple attachments on the cabin top to get the main sheet out of the way. If you are not using the main much, the lack of efficiency would not be critical.

Good thinking, and in fact I've had that in mind for next time she's on the hard. I have a good condition Hartley TS mast, boom and main so it would cost very little to put that up. The main bit of work would be (a) glassing in a suitable base or sub-deck compression post (there's a kind of cavity there at present) and getting the chainplates right. I love the yawl idea as the drive and balancing force to windward are so far back that all lee helm would be removed with even a small sail (I'm guessing)

Sublime yacht. Assume you are aware of this group - seems like still active as a June 2023 post on it. Numerous good photos of the yawl rig are on it as mentioned above.
www.facebook.com/p/Nimble-30-100081769392674/
As per Yara see here -
sailboatdata.com/sailboat/nimble-30/
You would have seen the below
harbormoor.com/boats/boat-models/nimble-30
The mizzen mainsail looks a tad smaller than a TS16 main especially the foot - you can scale off the sail plan.
Compression post and chain plates (eg chainplates flat bar 316 stainless with A4-80 grade stainless bolts to the topsides - or the gunwale moulding could take it with eyebolts?) would be reasonably easy for such a small sail. The mizzen mast is stayed by fore and aft stays from the gunwale width to around 3/4 mizzen mast height as per here;
www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=128380181091310&set=ms.c.eJwzNLIwtjAwMDE0sDQ0NjLRMwTzDQ3BfENzGN8CwjcAAOBsCVc~-.bps.a.128380027757992
If you want post photos if you are going down the yawl route and we can suggest compression post and chainplate designs.

Hi r13 - yes, I'm a member of that group so I've looked over their photos for ideas. It is a very good boat and it's my history with it that has been the problem. I bought it when my time commitments were small due to the fact that my children were growing up and I seemed to be at a loose end a lot of the time. Then a major family trauma/event threw all that into chaos and my time commitments (and dollar commitments) to my kids multiplied. I'm a dad first, sailor second. As a result my progress with the boat has been slow and any changes have to be worked through in least-cost form and sometimes I think it would be better just to sell and go back to trailer sailers where I can do the work on dry land in my workshop ... On the other hand, my kids are now recovering from the traumas of a few years ago and if I sell the Nimble now I'll be kicking myself in a couple of years' time! Although only 29 of these boats were ever built, Ted Brewer was quoted in an interview saying his biggest mistake in life was selling his own Nimble 30. They sail very well, although as some contributors above have pointed out, mine would sail better with brand-new sails. So if I manage to hang on to her, that will be on the cards in a year or two. And as you point out, playing around with a mizzen should not be too hard or expensive. I haven't begun to measure it up, but I have a brand-new aluminium mast and main from a Sparrow dinghy (a class desigend in Williamstown I believe) that could be the first experiment ... see below

%2C438

and here is one of the yawls at work ...

Ok great seems like you have it all under control. Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations but good that you are on top of them. Ted Brewer obviously was top designer and his Understanding Boat design book is sublime. Saw that photo of the yawl nimble on that site - it it trucking. Maybe one mainsail reef would have been better and the genoa furled more - albeit it would not set too well with the bulbous luff - or no3 jib. Lots of combinations available with a yawl eh.

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r13 said..
Ok great seems like you have it all under control. Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations but good that you are on top of them. Ted Brewer obviously was top designer and his Understanding Boat design book is sublime. Saw that photo of the yawl nimble on that site - it it trucking. Maybe one mainsail reef would have been better and the genoa furled more - albeit it would not set too well with the bulbous luff - or no3 jib. Lots of combinations available with a yawl eh.

The fact that it feels really balanced with a double reefed main and full headsail suggests to me that the shape of the sails - as one commenter above notes - means their normal characterists in relation to weather-helm or lee-helm are a bit out of whack. New sails should fix this ... eventually

This story might amuse you. I recently had the boom and main sail off the boat for a bit of maintenance, and went out fishing under motor alone. About 2km out into Port Phillip Bay the exhaust elbow on my 2ym15 yanmar snapped off (the mechanic said later that I should not rev it so high) and I was left with only the headsail. It was a virtually windless day, and so I put out the full sail and drifted at about a quarter of a knot back into the moorings. It took forever and I had a couple of conversations with the water police along the way. They said 'if you can't get in, throw out the hook and we'll pick you up on our way past this evening'. Luckily a gentle breeze gave just enough steerage to get back to my mooring, but it must have taken an hour and a half. Lucky I hadn't removed the headsail too, as most of my other sails are on the shelf in my garage