Ok so imagine you are building your skills on a 25ft Catamaran around Sydney.. Something like a Beach Marine Macro 25 perhaps... And "your" ambition is to be island hopping in the south pacific 10 years from now. You know that the Macro 25 will not be suitable for more than a short trip to Sydney harbour or perhaps Newcastle. So you are thinking forward a few years and eyeing off a switch to a blue water cruiser and of course you want this choice to be a long term one. But the choices are innumerate. There seems to be a million designs and variants. But you have a few parameters to work with:

In the 38-42ft range.
In the price bracket of $90 - $120k. (puts a big cat out of reach)
Your preference is a younger boat, so late 90's would be ideal.
Speed is always important
Shorthanded will happen so a furling main would be great but in mast furling sounds bad. What about in-boom furling?
Horseshoe galley rather than open style?

Now the key ingredient. what type of sailing vessel are you thinking?

Centre Cockpit?
Creates an amazing aft berth for keeping the missus happy
Hunter 42ft; $120k; 1997
www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1997-HUNTER-42-CENTRE-COCKPIT/SSE-AD-5702340/

North Shore 38?
A classic; Ticks most boxes and leaves budget for more cruising
$82k; 1988;
www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1988-NORTHSHORE-38/OAG-AD-16452785/

Glossy Euro Cruisers
They look like heaven; but does the cruising reality stack up??
Bavaria 40ft; $120k; 2001 www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2001-BAVARIA-40-CRUISER/OAG-AD-16528729/
Beneteau; 47ft; $106k; 1998: www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1998-Beneteau-Oceanis-461/SSE-AD-5391981/
Jeanneau; 40ft; 119k; 1999 http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1999-JEANNEAU-SUN-ODYSSEY-40/OAG-AD-16033088/

Pilothouse?
Keeps everyone warm and dry on the off days when nobody wants to be in the weather

Ketch?
Centre cockpit, shorthanded? Speedy?
Problem; most seem to be older or out of the price range.

I am in the same position as you but thinking 40-50 max.
I love the center cockpit I have really good to sleep in.
One of the big issues you have left out is storage.
My thoughts is a European or Hunter going to be strong enough for longer passages.

I do really like that Hunter.

I do wonder why everyone goes so big? A smaller boat (34 ish perhaps) can be just as seaworthy and the lower price allow either a newer/ better boat or more in the cruising kitty - The lower maintenance costs don't hurt either.

Cheers

Bristol (living on & cruising on a Compass 28 for over 2 years - yes I know we're bonkers!)

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Bristolfashion said..
I do wonder why everyone goes so big? A smaller boat (34 ish perhaps) can be just as seaworthy and the lower price allow either a newer/ better boat or more in the cruising kitty - The lower maintenance costs don't hurt either.

Cheers

Bristol (living on & cruising on a Compass 28 for over 2 years - yes I know we're bonkers!)

Plenty of people live on 24 footers like some are happy living in a humpy in the scrub.
My boat is plenty big enough to live on but drastically lacks storage space.
I would personally rather something a bit bigger and comfortable helps keep the other half happy. Also allows you to travel to more isolated destinations and stay for longer.

Crikey! Where do you start??

I think you definitely will get something in the price range you are looking at.

Some of the important things to consider in addition to those already mentioned for cruising:
Headroom
Length of bed
Fuel / water carrying capacity
Fridge and freezer
House battery capacity - solar panels
Tender on davits maybe
Bolt on keel or encapsulated
Shade whilst in transit and at anchor
How many of you onboard
I agree, at least 40ft
Definitely get a furling heady
KISS principle: lazy jacks and boom bag rather than main furler for me (be it boom or mast)
Do you really need 3 or 4 double berths and 3 dunnies as some yachts have??? Nope.

These are just my opinions from living aboard a 42ft for 2 years.
Have fun looking!!!

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FelixdeCat said..
Ok so imagine you are building your skills on a 25ft Catamaran around Sydney.. Something like a Beach Marine Macro 25 perhaps... And "your" ambition is to be island hopping in the south pacific 10 years from now. You know that the Macro 25 will not be suitable for more than a short trip to Sydney harbour or perhaps Newcastle. So you are thinking forward a few years and eyeing off a switch to a blue water cruiser and of course you want this choice to be a long term one. But the choices are innumerate. There seems to be a million designs and variants. But you have a few parameters to work with:

In the 38-42ft range.
In the price bracket of $90 - $120k. (puts a big cat out of reach)
Your preference is a younger boat, so late 90's would be ideal.
Speed is always important
Shorthanded will happen so a furling main would be great but in mast furling sounds bad. What about in-boom furling?
Horseshoe galley rather than open style?

Now the key ingredient. what type of sailing vessel are you thinking?

Centre Cockpit?
Creates an amazing aft berth for keeping the missus happy
Hunter 42ft; $120k; 1997
http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1997-HUNTER-42-CENTRE-COCKPIT/SSE-AD-5702340/

North Shore 38?
A classic; Ticks most boxes and leaves budget for more cruising
$82k; 1988;
www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1988-NORTHSHORE-38/OAG-AD-16452785/

Glossy Euro Cruisers
They look like heaven; but does the cruising reality stack up??
Bavaria 40ft; $120k; 2001 www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2001-BAVARIA-40-CRUISER/OAG-AD-16528729/
Beneteau; 47ft; $106k; 1998: www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1998-Beneteau-Oceanis-461/SSE-AD-5391981/
Jeanneau; 40ft; 119k; 1999 www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1999-JEANNEAU-SUN-ODYSSEY-40/OAG-AD-16033088/

Pilothouse?
Keeps everyone warm and dry on the off days when nobody wants to be in the weather

Ketch?
Centre cockpit, shorthanded? Speedy?
Problem; most seem to be older or out of the price range.

I know the North Shore 38. It is actually parked just around the corner from you. Beautiful boat, fussy owner, lots of extras. I think he is selling it because he is bringing his bigger boat back from Vanautu. Wish it had come up when I was looking for a boat a couple of years ago. Not sure it would make a great blue water boat, but a very capable coastal cruiser.

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NowandZen said..
Crikey! Where do you start??

I think you definitely will get something in the price range you are looking at.

Some of the important things to consider in addition to those already mentioned for cruising:
Headroom
Length of bed
Fuel / water carrying capacity
Fridge and freezer
House battery capacity - solar panels
Tender on davits maybe
Bolt on keel or encapsulated
Shade whilst in transit and at anchor
How many of you onboard
I agree, at least 40ft
Definitely get a furling heady
KISS principle: lazy jacks and boom bag rather than main furler for me (be it boom or mast)
Do you really need 3 or 4 double berths and 3 dunnies as some yachts have??? Nope.

These are just my opinions from living aboard a 42ft for 2 years.
Have fun looking!!!

Thanks for all the thought starters!!!!!

Yes headroom is key as I am 6'3" (rhymes)
Whats the pros/cons of having the tender on Davits vs On the foredeck?
Learn me about these keels. What reason would someone choose a bolt on keel?
Shade in vital. I enjoy lots of it at the moment and I would never give it up.
There would be 3 adults and 2 kids on board when cruising. So Berths could be one large double and 3 singles.
Heads I would go for one electric and one manual. I would rather 2 heads than 3. Shower space is important though. As is water. The women love their showers.
I agree about the boom bag. I only have a sail cover at the moment and the bag would be much more convenient. The main furler on the north shore 38 looks like it would be handy though.......

I liked having davits for the tender - easy to launch and recover as you do when cruising and looking around.
The majority of yachts have bolt on keels. Encapsulated keels can't fall off, bolt on keels can - if not maintained properly.
It has been discussed many times on this forum about the strength and integrity of the bolts holding it in place.
Enjoy your research!

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FelixdeCat said..
Ok so imagine you are building your skills on a 25ft Catamaran around Sydney.. Something like a Beach Marine Macro 25 perhaps... And "your" ambition is to be island hopping in the south pacific 10 years from now. You know that the Macro 25 will not be suitable for more than a short trip to Sydney harbour or perhaps Newcastle. So you are thinking forward a few years and eyeing off a switch to a blue water cruiser and of course you want this choice to be a long term one. But the choices are innumerate. There seems to be a million designs and variants. But you have a few parameters to work with:

None of them. I have not cruised but my mate who left the navy the same time as I did was a full time cruiser and he had probably 15 yachts. He reckoned cruising was 98% in harbour, 1% sailing and 1% motoring. I personally would buy a cruising yacht. One that has been there and done it already. One of the boats from the USA where the owners did not want to sail it home uphill!

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/panda-40-cutter-canoe-stern-perry-design-tashing-built/224245

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twodogs1969 said..

Bristolfashion said..
I do wonder why everyone goes so big? A smaller boat (34 ish perhaps) can be just as seaworthy and the lower price allow either a newer/ better boat or more in the cruising kitty - The lower maintenance costs don't hurt either.

Cheers

Bristol (living on & cruising on a Compass 28 for over 2 years - yes I know we're bonkers!)

Plenty of people live on 24 footers like some are happy living in a humpy in the scrub.
My boat is plenty big enough to live on but drastically lacks storage space.
I would personally rather something a bit bigger and comfortable helps keep the other half happy. Also allows you to travel to more isolated destinations and stay for longer.

Well, I wouldn't suggest a 24 foot! I was just thinking that a lot of people start with specifying a large size without going through the process of deciding what they need. Some massive boats can be difficult to handle for a couple - depending on agility and ability. I worry that one can spend so long saving for the enormous dream boat that yer too old to sail by the time you get there. Good design and quality can feel more liveable than just feet of length (you can have 30 foot of luxury or 45 foot of "humpy in the scrub")

In contravention to all the normal rules, my wife REALLY likes small boats!

Cheers

(Thinking of maybe, gasp, a 30 footer next time)

Bristol

If the yacht market continues in the same direction it has been, give it a few more years and you will be paid to take away your dream yacht !
But on a serious note, most things in life are a comprise and boats are no exception. What's good for one could be complete crap for the other. Ie. At 5'10" my boat is ok but a few of my mates are 6' and they look cramped

Go the hunter although I would get the bolt on keel checked out. Big. Transom, centre cockpit, aft cabin and wide body is the ultimate weekender or liveaboard. I can't understand why you over 6 foot guys want more head room I have 6ft 5 headroom and can't see out the cabin Windows me at 5ft 7! If only I was a bit taller!

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southace said..
Go the hunter although I would get the bolt on keel checked out. Big. Transom, centre cockpit, aft cabin and wide body is the ultimate weekender or liveaboard. I can't understand why you over 6 foot guys want more head room I have 6ft 5 headroom and can't see out the cabin Windows me at 5ft 7! If only I was a bit taller!

So even when you get frocked up and you put ya stilettos on you still won't bang your head, but you can at least see out the port.

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NowandZen said..

southace said..
Go the hunter although I would get the bolt on keel checked out. Big. Transom, centre cockpit, aft cabin and wide body is the ultimate weekender or liveaboard. I can't understand why you over 6 foot guys want more head room I have 6ft 5 headroom and can't see out the cabin Windows me at 5ft 7! If only I was a bit taller!

So even when you get frocked up and you put ya stilettos on you still won't bang your head, but you can at least see out the port.

I got slippers on if only they made heels for men I would have a view! At least I don't bang my precious head!

A riggers 2c worth.

Never liked to Hunters rig set up, no backstay and extra diamonds.
Adds complexity when it's not needes

Well none of you have considered the age factor

Young'uns of course will be able to use a smaller boat on the "go now with what we have principal".
But the middle aged who are cashed up will go for the big 50' plus jobs
And of course those approaching old age will go back to the smaller boat as easier to sail and look after

So all that dictates what a person will buy.

I thought the hunter had a encased wing keel?

i tend to agree the market will only improve for someone trading up over the next few years. The housing market will be playing a part.

I think the argument about keeping the size manageable is entirely valid so would the north shore 38 not be capable of handling the South Pacific?

i really like the hull of the hunter but why did they not go with a simple rig design? i also wonder if it would be slow being so beamy. It looks like it would make a killer weekender as well as being able to go long.

Hi Felix,
Ive been watching a sailing blog with a chap single handing a Bavaria 40 Cruiser, similar to my 37. He is sailing around Spain and The Azores etc and he finds his production yacht quite adequate. That boat would have the room you are after, more recent designs carry the maximum beam further aft, even my 37 which is a 2006 is huge compared to older 40 footers. If you want a real blue water yacht, there is a Hans Christian 38 Mk11 at Burraneer Bay for sail, same kind of design used in the Golden Globe race.
cheers Richard

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rumblefish said..
A riggers 2c worth.

Never liked to Hunters rig set up, no backstay and extra diamonds.
Adds complexity when it's not needes

Swept back rig I have hardly look for backstay tention only occasionally when punching to windward or if stuff hits the fan down wind. I think that hunter rig is fine for what is but it's nice to have a light backstay,

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Bristolfashion said..
I do wonder why everyone goes so big? A smaller boat (34 ish perhaps) can be just as seaworthy and the lower price allow either a newer/ better boat or more in the cruising kitty - The lower maintenance costs don't hurt either.

Cheers

Bristol (living on & cruising on a Compass 28 for over 2 years - yes I know we're bonkers!)

or on a 28-29 foot one. And I do not jut mean us, here is this American kid sailing around on a 27 foot

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southace said..

rumblefish said..
A riggers 2c worth.

Never liked to Hunters rig set up, no backstay and extra diamonds.
Adds complexity when it's not needes

Swept back rig I have hardly look for backstay tention only occasionally when punching to windward or if stuff hits the fan down wind. I think that hunter rig is fine for what is but it's nice to have a light backstay,

The blurb on the Hunter says it has a backstay, quote "Rig Masthead B & R rig (with backstay), Mainstays replaced 2014" unquote

I think Dexport has brained it with that boat he is cruising on now.

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LooseChange said..

southace said..

rumblefish said..
A riggers 2c worth.

Never liked to Hunters rig set up, no backstay and extra diamonds.
Adds complexity when it's not needes

Swept back rig I have hardly look for backstay tention only occasionally when punching to windward or if stuff hits the fan down wind. I think that hunter rig is fine for what is but it's nice to have a light backstay,

The blurb on the Hunter says it has a backstay, quote "Rig Masthead B & R rig (with backstay), Mainstays replaced 2014" unquote

Ah, it has too, my bad.

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southace said..
Go the hunter although I would get the bolt on keel checked out. Big. Transom, centre cockpit, aft cabin and wide body is the ultimate weekender or liveaboard. I can't understand why you over 6 foot guys want more head room I have 6ft 5 headroom and can't see out the cabin Windows me at 5ft 7! If only I was a bit taller!

Select to expand quote

FelixdeCat said..
Ok so imagine you are building your skills on a 25ft Catamaran around Sydney.. Something like a Beach Marine Macro 25 perhaps... And "your" ambition is to be island hopping in the south pacific 10 years from now. You know that the Macro 25 will not be suitable for more than a short trip to Sydney harbour or perhaps Newcastle. So you are thinking forward a few years and eyeing off a switch to a blue water cruiser and of course you want this choice to be a long term one. But the choices are innumerate. There seems to be a million designs and variants. But you have a few parameters to work with:

In the 38-42ft range.
In the price bracket of $90 - $120k. (puts a big cat out of reach)
Your preference is a younger boat, so late 90's would be ideal.
Speed is always important
Shorthanded will happen so a furling main would be great but in mast furling sounds bad. What about in-boom furling?
Horseshoe galley rather than open style?

Now the key ingredient. what type of sailing vessel are you thinking?

Centre Cockpit?
Creates an amazing aft berth for keeping the missus happy
Hunter 42ft; $120k; 1997
http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1997-HUNTER-42-CENTRE-COCKPIT/SSE-AD-5702340/

North Shore 38?
A classic; Ticks most boxes and leaves budget for more cruising
$82k; 1988;
www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1988-NORTHSHORE-38/OAG-AD-16452785/

Glossy Euro Cruisers
They look like heaven; but does the cruising reality stack up??
Bavaria 40ft; $120k; 2001 www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/2001-BAVARIA-40-CRUISER/OAG-AD-16528729/
Beneteau; 47ft; $106k; 1998: www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1998-Beneteau-Oceanis-461/SSE-AD-5391981/
Jeanneau; 40ft; 119k; 1999 www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1999-JEANNEAU-SUN-ODYSSEY-40/OAG-AD-16033088/

Pilothouse?
Keeps everyone warm and dry on the off days when nobody wants to be in the weather

Ketch?
Centre cockpit, shorthanded? Speedy?
Problem; most seem to be older or out of the price range.

I've had a Beneteau 461 now for some 8 years, just got back from cruising the Whitsundays for the last 3months. We found the boat to be an exceptional cruising boat, sails very well on all points , ( Farr design), very roomy, not sure what headroom is but I'm just over 6ft and there seems to be plenty of room above me. When we bought her our daughters were 10 & 13 and they had their own cabins, however they're grown ups these days.I'm now in my 70's and I sailed the boat back from Airlie to Sydney solo and had a ball, boats these days are so easy to sail. Having done a lot of racing and over the last 20yrs more deliveries than races, of all the production yachts, the 461 is up there with the best, for that price bracket. Downside is you're always looking for cheap places to slip because the Sydney metro is incredibly expensive for that size boat, but that gives me an excuse to go for a sail up the coast. I'm quite familiar with the Beneteau advertised as I've Walked past it a lot, although not the most well maintained but for that money a really good buy. It's at Middle Harbour Yacht Club. I have nothing to do with the sale of this boat, I just love my boat which is the same model but a year younger. Good luck choosing, should be a lot of fun, cheers, Mick.

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nswsailor said..
Well none of you have considered the age factor

Young'uns of course will be able to use a smaller boat on the "go now with what we have principal".
But the middle aged who are cashed up will go for the big 50' plus jobs
And of course those approaching old age will go back to the smaller boat as easier to sail and look after

So all that dictates what a person will buy.

That's very true NSW. Missus and I STARTED sailing in old age. So glad we bought a 28 footer. We are able to
handle her no problem and have fun because it is not a chore raising sails or nipping in and out of the moorings.
The Santana 28 was and still is an excellent choice.

i'd be interested to se how you get on regarding the size comparison, going back to a mono.
The Macro25 is obviously at the smaller end of the scale, but with the beam, you still end up having a good size chunk of boat.

Whenever I get on my fathers Cav32, which is 'bigger' than my boat by a few feet, instantly the side decks feel small, and the boat feels tiny in comparison, and so are the loads.

Speed wise, normal cruising speed you'd be about the same? perhaps the larger 42's would be a little quicker?

Thanks Moocher, Stockie & co for the feedback on those models.

Crusty, In terms of speed I guess the Macro is no slouch but I would have assumed a 40 foot mono would leave her behind? Here's a video of us sailing the other weekend.



I glanced at Navionics from time to time and 6 to 6.5 knots seemed to be achieved a few times on the day but occasionally it felt like we went faster. At those times I was all eyes on the sheets and bows so I didn't get a read. I need to check if Navionics can record speed during a journey or something.

We did get overtaken by a mono racing out to a marker with a bunch of blokes hanging off the side. But we weren't even trying so not worried about that.

The other boat that we met up with at smiths creek was a Cav 32 and they catered for us. It's a nice interior and its what got me thinking about a mono. The interiors just seem very cohesive and well fitted out. It just seems like everything is at the fingertips by comparison.

There seem to be plenty of cruising cats that are slower than cruising monos. After all, all that skin and interior weighs a lot, and the cat often has inferior foils and much more windage. The last two times I was anywhere near where that vid was shot, we were in our mono and out-reaching cats including one that claimed to be high performance.

I remember one day I ended up racing with the MM's designer on his 33 footer. A friend of his on an East Coast 31 with roller furling crossed tacks with us and the MM's designer yelled out "see you later" or words to that effect. For the rest of that beat, the East Coast just got further and further ahead, and the MM designer got quieter and quieter. But when it came to talking about performance, that guy tended to conveniently forget that sort of incident, and only recall the times he broad-reached past monos.

There are still some great performance cruising cats, of course, and even slower ones can be fast on a breezy reach. But the variation between designs, individual boats, individual cruising cat sailors, and different conditions seems to be so great that it's even harder to draw broad conclusions than it is with monos.

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Chris 249 said..
There seem to be plenty of cruising cats that are slower than cruising monos. After all, all that skin and interior weighs a lot, and the cat often has inferior foils and much more windage. The last two times I was anywhere near where that vid was shot, we were in our mono and out-reaching cats including one that claimed to be high performance.

I remember one day I ended up racing with the MM's designer on his 33 footer. A friend of his on an East Coast 31 with roller furling crossed tacks with us and the MM's designer yelled out "see you later" or words to that effect. For the rest of that beat, the East Coast just got further and further ahead, and the MM designer got quieter and quieter. But when it came to talking about performance, that guy tended to conveniently forget that sort of incident, and only recall the times he broad-reached past monos.

There are still some great performance cruising cats, of course, and even slower ones can be fast on a breezy reach. But the variation between designs, individual boats, individual cruising cat sailors, and different conditions seems to be so great that it's even harder to draw broad conclusions than it is with monos.

100% agree its very hard to reach broad conclusions in this space but its nevertheless interesting to think about. I mean I have no doubt that generally Cats have the upper hand in speed but theres more to choosing a boat than just knots. For example the motion of a mono hull when beating into a swell seems to be nicer due to the weight of the keel keeping things on an even.... keel....

I think that video example is a good one in the sense that you have a longer mono in race trim vs a bunch of numpties in an old, short, catamaran with badly trimmed sails and a lot of unnecessary gear on board.

I did a bit of reading on the maths to try to learn what its all about and have something to compare all the different monos out there (again, so many to choose from!) so I can start benchmarking this aspect. And I really dont want to debate cats vs monos because my spreadsheet is only meant to be used to compare mono vs mono. But based on what I am reading, what crusty is saying seems to stack up; a 25 ft cat does have the ability to keep up with a 40 foot cruising mono. Particularly if you consider I have put the Macro at 3 tonne (high cruising estimate - no real data available, and no way to find out) and all the monos are at their stated displacement without cruising gear and humans etc.

NB: data for the macro is for each hull.

On the way North earlier this year, I had my East Coast lifted out at Mackay for a scrub. Although the scales are not particularly accurate (according to the operator), he put the weight at just under 6 tonnes. That was in cruising (delivery) mode, full tanks, food and 2 peoples stuff for a 3 month trip. In racing mode it would still be well over 5.
For 2 people, it handles coastal trips with ease.