Enough farting around. It's time to get serious about a LLM build!

I need some critique on this set up. It can be built with steel tubing or skis as axles.

Don't hold back if it sucks.

Adjustable front suspension/steering and adjustable mast tube from 0 degrees to ten degrees in 5 positions.

What do you think?

'don't hold back'...... Well I think you are overthinking things.

I / we have seen many times someone new to the sport comes in and designs / builds a yacht that is SO complex it often way off the mark.
If you're going down the International Mini 5.6 class (the LLMini is just one type of yacht that fits the class) get yourself a good set of wheels and don't skimp on them, then build a LLMini frame follow the plans and don't make too many changes.... this now give you a 'standard' yacht to compare things with. Learn to sail on it and then a little later build a new frame using your ideas and using the original wheels you have bought. Compare it to the LLMini and then see if you have designed a better yacht or not.

The design of the LLMini is a result / mix of probably 200+ yacht builds and the chance that someone new to the sport builds a competitive yacht first off would be at least 200:1 against. So realistically the frame of ANY yacht is just a few $$$$ The wheels, pulleys, mast and sail are the big cost items.

Steering???

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KAONAONA said..

Steering???

Rake, contact patch, caster angle?

K....Keep
I.... It
S....Super
S....Simple

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Gizmo said..

'don't hold back'...... Well I think you are overthinking things.

I / we have seen many times someone new to the sport comes in and designs / builds a yacht that is SO complex it often way off the mark.
If you're going down the International Mini 5.6 class (the LLMini is just one type of yacht that fits the class) get yourself a good set of wheels and don't skimp on them, then build a LLMini frame follow the plans and don't make too many changes.... this now give you a 'standard' yacht to compare things with. Learn to sail on it and then a little later build a new frame using your ideas and using the original wheels you have bought. Compare it to the LLMini and then see if you have designed a better yacht or not.

The design of the LLMini is a result / mix of probably 200+ yacht builds and the chance that someone new to the sport builds a competitive yacht first off would be at least 200:1 against. So realistically the frame of ANY yacht is just a few $$$$ The wheels, pulleys, mast and sail are the big cost items.

At this point my brain is spinning! I think I should come to terms with the fact that all the engineering is already done for me and there is no sense on modifying what works. I am going to appreciate the efforts of others and just build a stock LLM for my first one. To hell ( For now ) with re-inventing the wheel. You are absolutely right. I have read it a hundred times "Just stick to the plans" So that's my new objective "KISS" Thanks for the great advice Gizmo! Off to e-bay to buy some wheels.

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Gizmo said..

KAONAONA said..

Steering???

Rake, contact patch, caster angle?

K....Keep
I.... It
S....Super
S....Simple

Thanks again Gizmo. Back to the plans!!!

I would stay away from eBay for wheels ..... Don't skimp on wheels
Re-read the sections about the various wheel types on the LLMini build thread.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Build-a-Landyacht-Lake-Lefroy-Mini-Yacht/

Welcome to the forum. Listen to these guys, they know of what they speak.

Have fun with your build and post lots of photos. We all learn that way.

.

If I was building my first 5.6 and intended to race it ,I would go with a y frame with an adjustable mast post. I would also move the post right forward(100mm behind the steering pivot point) and have centre pull on the boom, With adjustable out haul.
For steering I think the layover is the best and you have a few choices with the type of controls (hand similar to blokart. Rotating same as LLM or push same as Clems Mini, I prefer Clems) Seat ideas are really open on 5.6 mini so plenty of experimentation can be done here.
The seat's for class5 are set under some stringent rules that have to be followed.
Great to see that you are thinking outside of the box that is what this forum is all about.


www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Mini-class-using-the-promo-style-chasis/?page=1

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Modifications-and-experimentation/

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/update-on-constructionmodification-and-experiment/

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KAONAONA said..

Steering???

NO ,NO,NO go back and read about steering ,this steering just aint going to work.
THe steering pivot lines up with the contact point of the wheel

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KAONAONA said..

Enough farting around. It's time to get serious about a LLM build!

I need some critique on this set up. It can be built with steel tubing or skis as axles.

Don't hold back if it sucks.

what you have here is the soggy bottom mini.double skis is just right or the eurathane would be fine, build a Y frame and the flex of the tube would be fine,
where are you planning to sail?

Thanks for the name of my yacht.......It's the "Soggy Bottom"!!!

Most of my sailing will be at an off road park where they run quads, dirt bikes and buggies. That's the main reason for some desire for suspension. It's not very open but the roads and trails are clearly marked. The yearly average wind speed there is 21mph, you can run any OHV anytime and there is never anyone there during the week. I'm retired so those are the best days to sail. When I religiously ran the H-16 I usually had the lake to myself. Any open ground here is tied up in AG. This is what my "Fun yacht" will be for! I will not run my race rig there as It will get torn up in no time.

Did you notice that the rear axles are adjustable for camber angle and ride height?....No comments on that?

First off I have my frame material. I took down an old radio antenna mast that was standing on my property when I bought it. Yesterday I was wondering what I was going to use For my build as I was leaning on the antenna mast. I reached down to pull out a little weed that was growing at the base and the mast kicked me in the teeth!!

Anyway I 'm going to take AUS230 and your advice and build a Y frame. One that goes under the pan like Clem did. An OTT would be good but I like the idea of the chassis being as low as possible as this would lower the roll center and I would have a little something between me and the ground beside just the pan. What is the axle to axle wheelbase to make it come within the 5.6 rule?

I will probably build a rigid one piece flat frame without lift in the axles and a straight spine. What do you think about having Two mast tubes? One for larger sails and one for smaller sails. My frame will be all steel, no aluminum! with "Drop" spindles. I will build three sets of spindles. One set with two degrees camber, one with 4 degrees and one with eight.

I will post drawings for my Y frame and let you guys pick it apart before I cut my material. I'll draw it up with dimensions so you guys know exactly what's going on. Anything on that axle to axle measurement? Do I have a little leeway there? Or should I lay out the rope and establish the wheelbase that way. Are there any advantages to having the chassis as long as it can possibly be? I think longest is best. Can any part of the tire patch sit on top of the rope or does the whole of the footprint have to be within the rope? I ma used to questioning the specifics of the rules from having built Sprint cars my whole life and I realize tat every little bit helps.

So the steering! I will lay out the steering in my "Y" drawings. Just not sure why you guys have so much rake in the steering stem. I can understand not wanting the tire to roll off the bead but there are bead lockers or you could simply run screws through the rim to the tire bead!

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Gizmo said..

I would stay away from eBay for wheels ..... Don't skimp on wheels
Re-read the sections about the various wheel types on the LLMini build thread.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/Construction/Build-a-Landyacht-Lake-Lefroy-Mini-Yacht/

Good idea getting a spare
For my class 5 Promo on harsh ground I had a pair of rear quad bike rims and tyres adapted to suit my axles. Gives a higher attitude/better clearance ride and for the front I skinned a second tyre onto an existing tyre glued with 'liquid nails' building adhesive. Good for sand as well

Ya I figured at twelve bucks I might as well get a spare. Too bad this guy won't ship to Australia.

I also picked up a couple sails for $25. One is junk and one is a like new Gaastra 6.5. Gonna cut up the junky one and try it too.

Was I correct to read that a mini class has to have an open cockpit so the drivers whole body can be seen from above?

By the way, Soggy Bottom is just down the road from Bikini Bottom, turn left at the jelly fish fields.

The open cockpit only applies to class5. No restrictions for 5.6.

The rake in the steering is wrapped up with the basic steering geometry We love people who experiment here but as landyacht said go back and read up
about steering in these threads and it will save you a lot of grief

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KAONAONA said..

Ya I figured at twelve bucks I might as well get a spare. Too bad this guy won't ship to Australia.

I also picked up a couple sails for $25. One is junk and one is a like new Gaastra 6.5. Gonna cut up the junky one and try it too.

Was I correct to read that a mini class has to have an open cockpit so the drivers whole body can be seen from above?

By the way, Soggy Bottom is just down the road from Bikini Bottom, turn left at the jelly fish fields.

There are some people out there that are pushing for a 'restricted' Mini5.6 class, they are pushing many strict limitations to suit their own needs (the open cockpit was one of their many class fragmenting ideas). Some of their ideas will isolate many existing 5.6 yachts including some blokarts (the starter for the Mini5.6 class)

The wonderful thing about the 'International 5.6 Mini' is it's the FIRST true International class for land yachts builders .... Yet some people want to fragment it

Seems like 5.6 class is pretty much an open class, except for wheelbase. Other than that, anything goes.

In the US there are 2 mini classes. One is I5.6 mini. The other is the US mini with more restrictions. Although I don't know the restrictions.

Happy Easter everyone,

This is one of two sails I bought. It's basically a piece of crap so I put the knife to it.
The circled area is where I already re-attached the downhaul layers but not the downhaul yet.

Do I need to put this batten in the sail somewhere??? It's left over from when I cut the sail.

I would also like to replace the lowest panel of mylar because it is cracked. Or is tape okay just to try it and if I like it then replace the panel??

I won't go any further until I hear from the "Old Salts" regarding my inquiry. Or should that be "Old Sands"?

Battens are normally used to add rigidity to a sail, don't be afraid to not use them sometimes.
When making a sail battens can be added later.....If needed.
On a couple of occasions I have sailed blokarts in light winds, a much better sail shape was achieved by removing every 2nd batten

Where I plan on sailing for fun.




How does my stitching job I did look for the down haul? Is it good enough or should I add more?




Here is the rigging info on this sail....Can anyone suggest a mast?

The recommended mast length for this sail is 4.6 metres, but....this is for the complete sail, as fitted to a windsurfing board.

When fitted to a board, the sail reaches almost to the deck of the board and is attached to a flexible coupling.

On a landyacht, the mast drops into a socket [sitting lower in comparison to a board] and you need clearance for yourself under the boom and sail.

As you have already trimmed the base of your sail - you might have already created the needed clearance for yourself.

However - until you have a completed chassis and cockpit, I would just keep collecting all the masts and sails you can find.
Even damaged sails and snapped masts are handy to have - as broken masts can be used for making booms, and reinforcing the mast you use.
Damaged sails can be recut to different shapes - or used as donors for patches and battens.

If you only need to gain a little length on your mast, it is common for blokes to "borrow" vacuum cleaner pipes and add them onto the mast.
Most vac. pipes are of a size well suited to fit over the tip of most masts.
However - this can lead to noise on the home front when the wife finds her vac. pipe is suddenly 2' shorter.

Don't forget to give the mast supporting tube [the mast "step"] a little flare to prevent it damaging the mast.
The lower 3' to 4' of the mast need stiffening - by fitting a section of recycled damaged mast inside, or a close fitting tapered piece of timber [turned down on a lathe]

As you are intending to sail on rough ground, I would recommend a "softer" mast as it will flex better - the method for measuring flex is to support both ends of the mast and hang a 30kg weight at the half way point, then measure the bend.

For rough or soft ground, generally an unmodified sail and boom with plenty of belly works better - best described as like driving a car in second gear, more low down grunt to get you moving but less top speed.

On harder [low drag] surfaces, flat sails and stiff masts have less low down grunt [ok on hard surfaces] but lots more top end speed.

Anyway - for now, build your chassis and whichever seat suits you, and while doing this keep looking for masts, sails and a couple of windsurfing booms.
Once you have a chassis, we can give you tips on how to get the best out of your masts and sails.

stephen

I will have a sail collection in no time I'm sure. What about a Hobie-16 jib sail?

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KAONAONA said..

I will have a sail collection in no time I'm sure. What about a Hobie-16 jib sail?

sorry mate - I'm not too familiar with marine sails.

Others will chime in soon though.

stephen

A Hobie jib isn't much use for you apart from being a sun / rain shade while your building your yacht.

Okay scratch the Hobie sails.

Here is my front end. Cut and dry, plain and simple....Except the front axle bolts through spherical rod ends and adjustable mast rake.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Excelent, I use a half tube inside the mast post to allow the adjusting bolt to press the plate against the mast to distribute the pressures. My mast can be adjusted from5% to 15% allows plenty of adjustment to balance the yacht to different sail sizes.

I'm looking to buy this sail. Will it be any good as is? It's only $100.00.