going to be buying a new c kite very soon and just looking for a bit of advice and knowledge from people who actually ride them, have read all the reviews but found that each 1 is the same they all claim to be the best on the market etc. ive been riding hybrids for just about 2 years and want to ride wakestyle now hence the swap to a c.

looking at the major brand c kites - naish torch
- north vegas
- liquid force hifi comp
- ss fuel

if any1 can give me some helpfull info on any of these kites or other c kites that will help alot

any info on bar and lines, construction, wind ranges, etc

The big decisions to make are:

- 5 lines or 4
- What colour scheme will match your boardshorts

That is all.


On a more serious note, they've all got a different feel to them. I've ridden Torches, Fuels, Hadlows and Vegas's and currently ride Torches and an old '05 Fuel. The Vegas's i've ridden didn't work for me... but i haven't tried the '11 yet. You won't get a bad kite out of the ones you've listed; it's just a matter of trying them and seeing which one works for you.
Also, don't forget to include the '11 Hadlow Pro in the list.

In terms of bar setup. There's not much between them, so it all depends on what your used to.
Windrange - personally i prefer 5-liners for the 'oosh!t-drop-to-fifth' safety in the event of squalls or something going wrong, but if your an avid 4-line fan then that crosses two of the kites off the list.

If you're used to hybrids why not consider Naish Park, Ozone C4, Airush Vapor, etc? Also maybe add the new Airush Razor to your list - sounds better than the old Generator. Agree with koma - feel is important and combination of board and kite as well. Are you talking lower rocker board and PKRA style "wakestyle" or heavily rockered board with boots'n'all?

^^No intentions of hijacking the thread but I've got to pull you up on that. PKRA is NOT wakestyle, it is freestyle. There aren't variations of wakestyle. Wakestyle is in boots with your kite parked low. That's it. No more, no less. Period.

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fozzy said...

^^No intentions of hijacking the thread but I've got to pull you up on that. PKRA is NOT wakestyle, it is freestyle. There aren't variations of wakestyle. Wakestyle is in boots with your kite parked low. That's it. No more, no less. Period.

Where's the sarcasm tag when you need it.
1likeBJ did say "wakestyle".

hi there thanks for the helpful replies
Im am not looking at going into bindings just yet, ill give it another season on my strapped len10 lunacy. i forgot to mention my hight and weight im 6'2" and 88kg so need something that can take a bit of punishing as i put a bit of pressure on a kite (tend to be breaking kites a bit) so solid construction is a big plus in a kite for me.

after what i have been reading i think im going to lean towards the naish torch or the air rush razor because they seem to be getting the more consistent good reviews

the fuel is a good kite but i don't like the way my 08 used to jelly fish in the air and would actually fold in on its self in strong winds then pop back out (scary in i big gust) hopefully the newer versions don't have this. i also found that riding the fuels felt like i should be riding 2 sizes bigger, if every 1 was out on 9 i would need an 11.

now with the north vegas i was really excited about this kite and would have been my first choice but now that i have read a few more reveiws it seems like people arnt that impressed by it,

jus got told that the new 2011 liquid force hifi comps are not as good as last year, and not worth warrying about. any 1 know more about this years hifi?????

since 2009 the fuels havn't had the jellyfich problem at all. i find them quite nice. currently on 2011 fuels. best thing about the kite is that it's 4 lines and the lines never snaps and neither does the safety. great all round kite with improved low wind range. give the new fuel a try again sometime soon. i ride my 9m in the same wind others are on 11m now. BTW not going to do the whole sale pitch thingy

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koma said...

but if your an avid 4-line fan then that crosses two of the kites off the list.

if i can remeber correctly the Fuel is the only NON-Brideled 4line c-shape kite out there

Vegas'es I've tried are good hybrids but not really a C kite. For me at least didn't have high succes rate in tricks.
Torch is nice - but pretty heavy bar pressure
C4 me like, but lack a bit of lowend. Easy easy relaunch though
Hifi: Well I tried it once and didn't like it. It seems they always get rave reviews on the net and from team riders on the beach. But around here it seems that most non team riders that have tried them, don't really like them
Fuel I haven't tried but I'm sure they rock !!

I just got a quiver of Hadlows 2011. Haven't tried them but got them because 2 of my friends who didn't like the previous model now changed and are pretty stoked. Hope they are right

Hi Phil,

There really seems to be quite a variety of opinions out there about what's good and what's not. I agree with some and disagree with others.

From what you are saying about your riding ability, you'd probably be better served by a less "intense" kite that still gives full "C" kite feel and performance. The Ozone C4 gives full performance without the hard work feel of a 5 line "C". It has good depower, easy relaunch and is smooth and reliable.

Hard core 5 line C's tend to be a pain to relaunch, especially in lighter winds, they also tend to be heavier to steer and hold on the bar.

Feel is very important, so I offer you a go on our demo kites to find out for real what is hot and what's not. We have C4 and North Vegas on hand so feel free to give them a try. We are selling more C4 than any other performance kite at the moment.

Enjoy!

DM

I would say the opposite about 5 line kites in that you have more chance of getting a 5 line kite out of the water than a 4 line in light wind.

Also with the comments on the Vegas. It comes out of the bag on the freeride setting so when trying a kite I would suggest trying all settings available to see if one suits you more. The Torch is an exception to this as most find it always flys best on the front setting.

Hey phil not sure if you made this thread before you contacted me but anyway ill put in my 5cents.

in regards too all the kites you mentioned ill go down 1 by 1.

The vegas i hated, its jumpy and moves around too much, was a pain to keep still in one spot and didnt really feel too good unhooked as a whole.

Torch i found worked better than the vegas, light bar pressure and unhooked pretty well but also really jumpy and movy, i didn't really like the feel of that either.

Fuel was awesome, i thought that was a nice kite, simple to use and easy to unhook on, might be a bit tricky relaunching in light stuff but generally you just crank the back line. i found it's bar pressure is quite full on though.

2010 Hifi comp was amazing, i always seem to get the first batch of kites which have little problems (too short 5th line every time) but yer when you get that right with the extension you get with the kite it's an amazing kite with really good range. I didnt like the 2011 but from what i heard the one i flew was still a proto and had that short 5th line problem too so i guess it would be a rad kite just like the 2010 was when the 5th is right, i think all the new ones now have the extension available and comes with the kite.

to add a few more.

The C4 is a really nice kite too, really good unhooked and is generally pretty damn well behaved, i like that it is a 4 line kite and works well even though it has a bridle. I do not like the bar how ever, i always find that when i go for passes and f*ck them up my leash wraps around the end and sends me death looping down the beach. they really have to do something about those bar ends. I also dont like the release being a pull towards body one because when you hook in you can ping it quite easily.


The razor i really liked, its my favourite of the bunch this year for a few reasons.
1. you can change the turning speed and it makes a huge difference, i put mine on super slow so it doesnt move around and now when i pop the kite sits perfectly the whole way through the trick.
2. its got a great feel through the bar and really nice response when you crank the bar for loops and stuff. i dont really like loops but i just gave it a go to see how it felt compared to generator.
3.its got a really nice clean bar that comes with multiple line lengths so you can cruise with 25, 22 and i assume 17 m lines. only thing i dont like are those big pull toggles on the trim strap but i am very picky about bars...
4. once you pop it really gives you a nice big pop with lots of slack, since riding this kite i have felt that my riding has progressed ALOT compared to last summer and ive only been on it 3 times!

like i said man when i go down next ill let you give it a go, it's super easy to relaunch too, pull a tiny bit of 5th in and crank a side line and it gets up no worries. its hardly a "hard core kite" like people seem to label anything that doesn't have a swept tip. I can say it has just as much depower as my hifi did and doesnt pull me around etc when crashing.

comparing it to the hadlow, just from the hadlows i seen they wobble quite a lot and looks like it is a kite that needs a fair bit of rider input to work good, dont get me wrong i think it is a very high performace kite but it just seems like you need to really fly it to get benefit from it where as the razor is really the smoothest and easy to use C that i have flown so far.

ill be more specific on the hadlow when i get to finally ride one.

oh and there is nothing worse than having to fiddle around with settings all the time until you find what works for you on a kite... it really is either it works or it doesnt.

which gives the razor and the C4 another big ups in the list because they are super simple plug and play right out of the bag.

hey charl any other comparisons between the generator and the razor and how do the different sizes go. My 9.5 generator is my favourite kite of all time yet the 11.5 is just a heavy bruiser but great for unhooked kite low tricks. Also is the sizing like the generator where the 9.5 had a bottom end of an 8 but the 11.5 had a bottom end of a 13. Finally do they have the long double chicken loop line like the rest of the Airush range.

the power of the sizes are on par with other brands. i get the same low end on my 9 as i did on my 9m hifi, but it lets me point upwind better in light stuff while im riding a wakeboard.

it sits a bit deeper in the window, they made the mistake with the generators of letting it fly forwards too fast and sit way to close to the edge of the window.

the bar throw is some what bigger but not rediculous, i think its about the same as all the new 2011 airush bars (short enough to reach the bar after letting it go but long enough to give more than adequate depower).

i liked the generator but there were heaps of things that i could think of to change on them and basically they did it all on the razor.

after flying the hadlow im pretty stuck as to which is better.

the razor has a significantly better ease of use and smoothness to it, it also gives the options of changing turning speed and you can change the front settings to make it an aggressive C or on standard settings its a depower C. really predictable and gives decent slack in the lines when you pop.

the hadlow ( only flew it on the 5 line config) I found you need to put a lot more input into the bar to get the kite to generate power and speed, you need to pay a lot more attention to it while flying it because if you dont it will spank you. I found that if you tie an extra knot on the 5th and slacked it off a bit it flew a 100% better than it did on the stock settings. once you unhook though you dont feel any change in power so it made unhooking sweet because you know how much power you had riding hooked in so you won't get a sudden surprise of extra power. once you popped the kite almost went limp from the slack it produced and it sits perfectly parked, took a while to get used to that kind of slack. It did not have as much on bar depower as the razor though and i felt like i got ripped around a lot more after dropping the bar.

one of the instructors for WOZ was comparing it to his 07 fuel and he came up with the analogy that the fuel is the nice girl friend and the hadlow is that dirty bitch you don't introduce to your friends. nice girl is very good to you, lets you beat her up and she won't fight back and she's nice and easy to get along with. The dirty bitch will punch back when you smack her around but generally she offers a more exciting ride.

that analogy goes to the razor as well so if you want a kite that's easy all round and works really good in all fields the razor is your pick, if you want an all balls aggressive kite that's insane to unhook on and you want to have a lot of flying input with your kite then the hadlow would be the go. Either way both kites are awesome and I really don't know which one I'd rather be on right now.

??hey there charl dv,????im looking a quiver of razors at the mo,ive searched the net for info but its scarce, and by the sounds of it your the man to ask about them.??so it would be hugely appreciated if you could answer a few things that ive been wondering about,????in terms of power where do you put the razor........... is it up there with the hadlow an fuel or the other end of the spectrum with C4.??peeps may disagree but i thought 2010 c4 was lacking power. certainly hasnt got the pull of a fuel.????does the razor come with a 6 line kit, if so have you tried it?????is the leading edge super thin like hadlow 09 or thicker like fuel???????are they built really well? my 09 hifis are bomb proof yet my 2010 fuel which hasnt had alot of use has 2 holes in it already.????thanks in advance??lee

Hey lee,

The razor is pretty up there with low end for a C, my 9m has same low end as my 9m 2010 hifi did.

construction wise they are pretty bomb proof and while i was down in esperance i had tried out the different front line settings you get. when you move the front lines back onto the "wakestyle" settings it becomes a lot more like the hadlow where you need to put a bit more input into the kite to get it to work good but the slack you get is unreal and it doesn't lose that much of the depower like i thought it would.

I agreed that the C4 lacks a bit of low end and the razor definitely has more. It does not come with a 6 line kit but I dont think you need it to be honest, the 5th line works really well for relaunching and I found on the wakestyle settings you can crank just a back line and it rolls over and launches super easy.

construction wise i think they are built solid, they are a lot lighter than the hifis but i have not seen any weak points on the razor yet and so far i am super happy with it's quality. I was a bit worried at first when i notice how light it was but from what i've seen so far there is definitely a lot of strength and quality in the build.

I went 11 9 for perth and so far it's been perfect 11 gets me going pretty early even on my wakeboard.

In my opinion there are only a few of what we call the original c shapes left around Fuel ,Vegas,Torch ,not to say there your only choice but when you trade them youll get better value . For myself cant go past the vegas this year and as far as 4 line & 5 line if your riding c shapes you shouldnt be scared of a 5th line,
Hope this helps
George

i wouldnt really call the vegas a C kite, definitely more hybrid, doesnt ride like a real C does.

Razor, Hadlow, Fuel, Best Team C. those are the 4 real C kites I can think of.

then you got your torch, vegas, hifi, C4 which are all hybrids and are still sick kites just a bit different from a true C.

hey charl,

thanks for your time to answer my q...
i think im gonna have to get a set.

cheers

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Charl dv said...

i wouldnt really call the vegas a C kite, definitely more hybrid, doesnt ride like a real C does.

Razor, Hadlow, Fuel, Best Team C. those are the 4 real C kites I can think of.

then you got your torch, vegas, hifi, C4 which are all hybrids and are still sick kites just a bit different from a true C.

Wouldn't you put the Torch in the real C kite category ? Why not ?
I find the torch very different from the more hybrid Vegas

it just didnt have that raw pop and slack feel of a real C, it pivots a bit too much off its 5th and its got monster swept wing tips.

basically i put any kite that needs tension on the 5th line to fly as a hybrid because it relies on that support on the leading edge (SLE). The torch i also found didnt have as good a feed back and still turned a lot after popping which is a common thing for hybrids and sle kites to do where the C kites i mentioned stays parked perfect and offers tons of slack after leaving the water.

what i classify as a C kite are kites with square tips and can fly with slack on the 5ths and still work really well, ones that dont need support from its fifth on the LE.

It's a grey line C and hybrid. Even the fuel has hybrid style relaunch

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TurtleHunter said...

It's a grey line C and hybrid. Even the fuel has hybrid style relaunch

Hybrid style relaunch? Do you mean pulling one side line, there have been c kites around since 2004 that could do that.

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Charl dv said...

it just didnt have that raw pop and slack feel of a real C, it pivots a bit too much off its 5th and its got monster swept wing tips.

basically i put any kite that needs tension on the 5th line to fly as a hybrid because it relies on that support on the leading edge (SLE). The torch i also found didnt have as good a feed back and still turned a lot after popping which is a common thing for hybrids and sle kites to do where the C kites i mentioned stays parked perfect and offers tons of slack after leaving the water.

what i classify as a C kite are kites with square tips and can fly with slack on the 5ths and still work really well, ones that dont need support from its fifth on the LE.

The Torch (and all other tensioned-fifth line kites) flight characteristics change significantly when you adjust the fifth line tension. An inch more tension than it needs and it becomes very pivoty, far less sweeping, quite gutless and slow turning speed. Backing it off to a slack fifth line (adding in ~2 inches) results in a gruntier kite with much more sweep but less upwind reach. Then of course there's the auto-gust munching ability of the tensioned fifth line.

IMO the Torch is a C, but it's a high-depower C kite.
The Hadlow Pro is a C, but it's a classic C style kite (until the '11 model came with the additional mini bridle for more depower).

went with the 2010 torch in the end, i picked up a cheap hardly used one here on sea breeze and am super happy with it, its exactly what i was looking for, but mind you i only had a small go on a 2011 hadlow and didnt try the razor, but price wise it made sence to go with last years model.

it flies really nice and really good low end, im 88kg and fly 9m all the time i was really surprised at how little wind i needed to get goin on it, i was really impressed with the bar set up aswell with nice easy uncomplicated 5th line, depower cleat and bar stopper,

it sits well in the window wen riding and doesnt need to much kite movement to generate power on the luls, it also pops well put turns quickly witch can be annoying when unhooking but great for waves.

it was more of a spur of the moment in getting this kite as i didnt get to demo many kites to see witch suited me the best but like i said im really happy with it.

cheers phil

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koma said...

Charl dv said...

it just didnt have that raw pop and slack feel of a real C, it pivots a bit too much off its 5th and its got monster swept wing tips.

basically i put any kite that needs tension on the 5th line to fly as a hybrid because it relies on that support on the leading edge (SLE). The torch i also found didnt have as good a feed back and still turned a lot after popping which is a common thing for hybrids and sle kites to do where the C kites i mentioned stays parked perfect and offers tons of slack after leaving the water.

what i classify as a C kite are kites with square tips and can fly with slack on the 5ths and still work really well, ones that dont need support from its fifth on the LE.

The Torch (and all other tensioned-fifth line kites) flight characteristics change significantly when you adjust the fifth line tension. An inch more tension than it needs and it becomes very pivoty, far less sweeping, quite gutless and slow turning speed. Backing it off to a slack fifth line (adding in ~2 inches) results in a gruntier kite with much more sweep but less upwind reach. Then of course there's the auto-gust munching ability of the tensioned fifth line.

IMO the Torch is a C, but it's a high-depower C kite.
The Hadlow Pro is a C, but it's a classic C style kite (until the '11 model came with the additional mini bridle for more depower).

high depower C requiring 5th tension for canopy support = hybrid. it physically cant fly without the 5th otherwise it just becomes a dog.

I'll only ever call a classic C a C and that's just my definition i go by, each to their own and like i said im not having a dig at any of those kites i'm just saying i reckon they are more of a hybrid class and have a few more hybrid characteristics than C characteristics. still sick freestyle kites none the less it all just depends on what you are used to.

e.g. i think if you coming of a SLE hybrid type kite then a C/hybrid (not pure C) would be a lot more of an easy transition to make than just jumping straight onto a hadlow for example.

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phil godfrey said...

went with the 2010 torch in the end, i picked up a cheap hardly used one here on sea breeze and am super happy with it, its exactly what i was looking for, but mind you i only had a small go on a 2011 hadlow and didnt try the razor, but price wise it made sence to go with last years model.

it flies really nice and really good low end, im 88kg and fly 9m all the time i was really surprised at how little wind i needed to get goin on it, i was really impressed with the bar set up aswell with nice easy uncomplicated 5th line, depower cleat and bar stopper,

it sits well in the window wen riding and doesnt need to much kite movement to generate power on the luls, it also pops well put turns quickly witch can be annoying when unhooking but great for waves.

it was more of a spur of the moment in getting this kite as i didnt get to demo many kites to see witch suited me the best but like i said im really happy with it.

cheers phil

yer good work mate i saw you were riding pretty good on it and you should progress a lot more, if you pick up a sweet 2nd hand kite on the cheap then who cares if it's not a 100% exactly what you need, if its close to it and 1/2 the price then i'd rather have chosen that too.

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Charl dv said...

it just didnt have that raw pop and slack feel of a real C, it pivots a bit too much off its 5th and its got monster swept wing tips.

basically i put any kite that needs tension on the 5th line to fly as a hybrid because it relies on that support on the leading edge (SLE). The torch i also found didnt have as good a feed back and still turned a lot after popping which is a common thing for hybrids and sle kites to do where the C kites i mentioned stays parked perfect and offers tons of slack after leaving the water.

what i classify as a C kite are kites with square tips and can fly with slack on the 5ths and still work really well, ones that dont need support from its fifth on the LE.

monster swept wingtips??



and the hadlow and razor both have 5 lines so how does that make it any different?

yes dude monster sweep they sure as hell aren't 90 degree angle wings like real c.

difference being they don't rely on the 5th, they can be ridden fully slacked out an still work where as the torches start jelly fishing.


like i said dude, maybe you should go back to school to go learn to read more carefully, but i never said its a bad kite or anything and i still said its a sick kite for freestyle i just wouldn't call it a c.

quotes:

"still sick freestyle kites none the less it all just depends on what you are used to."

"Then you got your torch, vegas, hifi, C4 which are all hybrids and are still sick kites just a bit different from a true C."