Does anyone else feel like twin tip board development has stagnated?

I have been riding a 139 2012 North Gambler since about 2014 and decided to get a new (used) board assuming board technology would have seen some significant developments over a 10+ year period. I picked up a used 136 2022 Duotone Jaime SLS which I took out in 22knts yesterday for the first time and was shocked at how little difference there was between this board and my Gambler.

I've got Vario foot straps and lower profile fins on the Gambler and Entity foot straps with larger fins on the Jaime which did create some differences between the boards in foot strap comfort and the relative difficulty of sliding between toe side to regular, but in terms of actual board performance when it came to jump take-offs and landings, chop/edging performance etc., I hardly noticed any difference at all.

Is it just me? Does anyone else feel the same way? Other than the top 5% of riders, why would anyone pay $1500-$1800 to replace a 10yr old board that performs almost identically?

On the surface it would seem like there has been very little improvement in boards, and perhaps there hasn't been that much major change, although I would have thought there would have been a noticeable difference in the ride between the Gambler and the Jaime SLS.

Weight would have been the first obvious difference, with rocker being a close second. Gamblers were essentially a wakeboard with wake type rocker and heavier construction to cope with the loads of boots.

Modern boards are improved but in more nuanced ways. The type of flex, and where/how they flex. It has become a finer art of making the board twist and flex in a way that delivers more crisp pop or better holding or better dealing with choppy water, depending on the style you want to ride.

But yes, there is little change to a generic board in the last 10 years or more. The biggest change in board design was moving away from the foam core designs which would break. Since paulownia cored boards hit the market, the boards flexed better and were more resistant to breaking. 3D shaping of the deck allowed more controlled flex.

Modern high end boards are definitely better than older boards providing you have the skills to exploit the characteristics of the individual board. Meaning, if you are just riding in and out, you can ride anything and they all feel similar with exception to how they handle choppy waters. However, an experienced rider will notice the difference in terms of pop and subtleties in the ride when riding at a higher level.

The bad thing about modern boards is the price is getting well up there, with some decks being as much as $2000 or more, plus footstraps! . The counterpoint to this is the boards will likely last you a lifetime, so long as you replace worn out footstraps every few years, and you take good care of it of course.

DM

Have a look at Upeksha Kiteboards - Thailand- They added things to the front and rear to help stop the boards catching.

Interesting. I have had the exactly same experience as sbcapped. Been riding a 2014 Cabrinha Tronic for so long I thought it was time to upgrade. I got myself a Duotone Jaime SLS last year and was underwhelmed by the very similar feeling for pops, landings etc. I'm back riding my Tronic while the Jaime is gathering dust in the garage. Must pull my finger out and list it for sale.

Boots

Get a spin on a carved they are sick

At the end of the day a twintip kite board is just a glorified plank of wood... there's only so far you can take it. Board game changes have come by such as adding a foil, but then its not a twintip anymore, its now something else.

Your dead right, companies just change the graphics and increase the price every year. lol

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Babelfish said..
Interesting. I have had the exactly same experience as sbcapped. Been riding a 2014 Cabrinha Tronic for so long I thought it was time to upgrade. I got myself a Duotone Jaime SLS last year and was underwhelmed by the very similar feeling for pops, landings etc. I'm back riding my Tronic while the Jaime is gathering dust in the garage. Must pull my finger out and list it for sale.

Ditto - new(ish) board - completely ruined my boosting. Nice and comfy though - so good for mowing the lawns. Time to get back to building my own boards - a lot cheaper and a **load more performance than this modern overpriced garbage.

No backyarder can make a board as good as the capita mothership can.

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Froth Goth said..
No backyarder can make a board as good as the capita mothership can.

Bullsh!t

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decay said..

Froth Goth said..
No backyarder can make a board as good as the capita mothership can.

Bullsh!t

Haha.. spot on Dave

@frothgoth what exactly cant people do at home?

DK and others of us, to varying degrees, were making boards similar to todays production boards some 15-20 years ago.
Anyone can do a custom paulownia lamination and composite layup.
You dont need a vacuum setup nor a CNC machine.
There are simple ways to reduce weight and get a great finish.

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thuffam said..

There are simple ways to reduce weight and get a great finish.

Any hints on how to achieve these?

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decay said..

Froth Goth said..
No backyarder can make a board as good as the capita mothership can.

Bullsh!t

Hahaha i wouldnt put you in the catagory of a backyarder

Wanna walk me thru the process of re laminateing the ptex base on my modern recentish carbon fiber boards?? Seems hard to find a glue that likes both carbon and ptex at same time.

Ive been cleaning out both surfaces and roughing it up and applying resin and pressing this lasts a few decent sessions before coming apart again after doing that for a few years useing varying types of resin ive now settled on useing the super expensive black sikaflex that you use to keep ypur solar panels on car roof / vent fans etc etc

This lasts alot longer but is also still starting to peel off again but is much harder to clean the surface again.

1.4k rrp board

Ive even tried plastic glues but it just seems very difficult to find something that holds both plastic and carbon together.

I would and have snapped basically everyboard that isnt boot specific

My favourite board was a 2014 cabrinha cbl i believe your familular with it if your partner bought one 2nd hand off a guy on gold coast in 2016 ? as a gift id love to have it back dk bottom shape for days on that thing (may have been someone else but i think she said he made it )
Cheers matey

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Haha.. spot on Dave

@frothgoth what exactly cant people do at home?

Well ive been exclusively rideing the high end parkstyle boards with carbon and ptex bases for over a decade as i tend to brake anything else i snap alot of handlepass leashes aswell bit of a fat old kook the gear doesnt stand a chance otherwise i even paraglide with my kiteboards on sometimes in the dunes so they get put thru theyre paces got an old chonda with a tav2 kit winch that has claimed a few boards over the years you get the idea fun and games not exactly warranty activities

If you want me to throw a few of your virgins in the volcano thuffam im keen well find out what the difference is that way or maybe we could send a few over to the "hownot2" youtube.com/@hownot2?si=GhQYp5JEDHwB3Fer breaktest guys i believe weve got them testing some pg gear im sure they could work out something fun to do with boards

Here's a step-by-step guide to making a wooden core kiteboard with carbon fiber layers and P-Tex base with strong inserts for wakeboots:
*Step 1: Design and planning*

- Determine the board's size, shape, and thickness

- Choose the type of wood for the core (e.g., Paulownia, Cedar)

- Plan the carbon fiber layout and layer thickness

- Select the P-Tex base material and inserts

*Step 2: Wood core construction*

- Cut and shape the wood core to the desired dimensions

- Assemble the core layers, using adhesives and clamps

- Sand the core to achieve a smooth surface



*Step 3: Carbon fiber lamination*



- Cut the carbon fiber fabric to size



- Apply epoxy resin to the core and carbon fiber



- Laminate the carbon fiber layers, using a vacuum bag or pressure pot


- Repeat for the bottom layer



*Step 4: P-Tex base attachment*



- Cut the P-Tex base to size


- Apply a bonding agent to the carbon fiber bottom layer


- Attach the P-Tex base, using a strong adhesive and pressure



*Step 5: Insert installation*



- Drill holes for the inserts, using a template or jig



- Install the inserts, using a strong adhesive and screwing them into place



*Step 6: Finishing and assembly*



- Sand the entire board to achieve a smooth finish

- Apply a protective coating to the carbon fiber layers

- Attach the bindings and any other hardware

*Step 7: Final testing

Well ill be damned...


Ai is crazy

Im a woodbutcher by trade and ive never been able to figure out what to ise but here it is

Here are some specific brands and models of bonding agents for P-Tex and carbon fiber:

- Permabond ET500 ?
- Permabond PT326 ?
- Permabond ES5681 ?
- Permabond ET5428 ?
- Permabond ET5429 ?
- Permabond MT382 ?
- Permabond MT3821 ?
- Permabond TA4246 ? ?

Well my next board will be lasting alot longer now

Here are some strong adhesives used to bond a P-Tex base to a carbon fiber board ? ? ? ? ?:

- Permabond ET500: A two-part fast-setting epoxy adhesive that bonds to a wide variety of substrates.
- Permabond PT326: A high-performance polyurethane adhesive that is the same color as carbon fiber.
- Permabond ET5428 and ET5429: Developed specifically for bonding carbon fiber reinforced polymer (CRP).
- Permabond TA4246: A toughened surface-activated structural acrylic adhesive that achieves handling strength in under four minutes.
- Bob Smith Industries Quik-Cure: A two-component epoxy for CFRP and carbon repair that forms a durable yet flexible and lasting bond.







Well ive skimmed thru half a dozen of the sdses and due to my avatar being a picture of ET im gonna go with this one hopefully this will put an end to my monthly repair sessions ive probably used about a dozen different adhesives over the years and i think im finally onto a winner. I had always assumed it must just have been some sort of special process they were doing at the factory that i couldnt replicate with bottle jacks and swearing in ukrainian

Never used ptex myself. But plastics that wont glue usually just need some pretreatment... try a light sand, wipe with IPA then when dry run a flame over it to burn off top layer oils. But test on a scrap piece first!!!!

If you dont have a vacuum setup...
You can achieve an amaIng finish using a 1mm PETG sheet. It acts as a mould against your outer resin layer. this will do compound curves.
Also recommend using peel ply if not using PETG.. Many manual layups not using vacuum end up with excess resin... which ads weight and makes it weaker.
TBH while paulownia is an excellent timber but save yourself a load of hassle, time and expense and just use 3mm ply from Bunnings . You can get rocker and concave using a simple jig.. a few bits of 3x2 and 2 or 4 clamps. Just laminate 2 or more sheets in the jig, once cured.. bingo. Reshape outline with a sureform.
I always drill oversize holes (25mm) for the fittings and fill them with thickened (with 403) resin before the layup. Then layup, finishing with peelply or petg depending what finish you're after.
For the outline, you can buy the ABS to run around the outer edge.. but again cost and hassle wise. I use thickened epoxy with aluminium powder... incrediblly durable mix.
A light handle can be easily made from 25c3mm aluminium flat bar or 3d printed. Likewise you can 3d print fins or cast your own or get creative and do manual layups with interesting materials.. for strength or cosmetics/looks.

To save money.. you can get away with fibreglass and for additional strength/stiffness use carbon TOW instead of weaves... (you dont need lateral strength.. just lengthwise).
You can also reduce some weight by removing core timber. Get creative with your router/sander, drill.
To be honest i havent made a board in years.. my last one only broke this past summer.. it lasted 16 years (3 sets of footstraps though) and at the time i built it it weighed 500g less than a similar sized production board and ive never been able to jump even remotely as good on the various production boards ive tried in that time.

Hell yeah matey cheers ill ahhhhh snap a pic of the current disaster so yas can see what rolled into the shop style "hobby work" its got more layers then a onion sure to make your eyes bleed but well fix it up and might even splash out on a ptex candle see if she can be restored. To the former glory

Mostly excited about finding something that bonds both carbon and plastic ive normally been finding stuff that does one or the other to the point i was tempted to just throw some glass over the sides get that early 2000s rounded glass board look god the performance on those things was hilarious spent a month on a cabrinha dragon would of been better off standing in a wash tub for edgeing in 35 knots

This is going to do my head in i cant find that old cabrinha board anywhere on the internet i thought it was early 2000s but it must have been way older it was a twin tip that was made of FOAM probably the same stuff they were useing to make the np windsurf boards in the 90s

Anyways board tecs gone a long way and is still going strong the park guys have completely changed up the dimensions theyve got some seriously big boards compared to the sgandards of 5 years ago now.

The winners of the redbull ragnarok are all rideing on like 6 meter long snowboards they look ridiculous

Ill be cooking up a kiteboard useing primarily for paragliding in sand with im tempted to go for a pair of "bigfoot" skis instead of a board something about skiing on sand and water with a mini wing overhead seems interesting to me because i can see the potential for flying headlands then kiteing the water below and repeating that whole process with a parakite

Frothys aboardtion clinic
You ape em
We scrape em











Oi DK so what ya reckon? Should i be buying a whole ptex sheet take the entire thing off back to the carbon or will removeing it unsettle and remove that carbon layer? Should i cut a u iformed circular shape of the ptext out and then lay down a new layer useing that ET permabond or should i just try scrapeing and ptex candleing a new layer ontop ? Or just glue back on whats there with the ET permabond and then maybe add hunks of new ptex on ?

Pic 4s down to carbon swapping boots has been done slowly but surely every tip corner and back / front edge has been worn out

If the board is not compromised then just sand back that crap plastic stuff on top and add a thickened layer of resin (with 403 powder).
If it is compromised then I would sand the whole lot down and a bit beyond where it starts peeling - a nice feathered curve thru the compromised layers. Then wipe with meths/IPA, and layup with glass and/or carbon or innegra. Then for the top layer, if you want it really abrasion resistant.. make a thick mix of epoxy with something like 403 powder (can add powdered aluminium if you want) - this stuff is incredibly hard so may crack off.. but a mix about mayonnaise thickness should be flexible enough if not too thick a layer used. Then put some plastic on top eg ice cream container or acrylic or PETG (this gives an smooth finish without any need for additional layers or hotcoat or sanding etc) - then put a brick on it to weigh it down (or lightly clamp). Ideally let the thickened mix run down the sides to create a side wall - get creative with masking tape to hold it in place. If you want to ensure no air bubbles, put a layer of the thickened resin on the plastic first.

That's pretty much how any surfboard/kiteboard would be repaired.

That old board I built had an outer layer of a carbon/kevlar weave.... it was insanely tough. If your boards are subject to a lot of impact I would recommend making one with kevlar outer (although its a sod to work with). Fibreglass is also very durable - certainly more so than carbon which does not like shock/impact. Play around with your layups before commiting to a board - ie get some ply and make a few different layups... then bash them like your do your TT - both impact and the flex you need.

Always use epoxy - never polyester resin (it is simply a plastic that will not stick to substrates) - epoxy is cross-linking and adheres very well to itself and other substrates and with additives is super versatile.

Hmmm i didnt think of using kevlar and i have some aramid cloth laying around could be a fun test. .... would prefer to ptex tho just because it seams to be more friendly to the park obstacles etc

Got a couple more projects yet ... i wonder what fabric base works best on sandunes... almost need something modular you can clip off and on to replace easily...

?si=XGbzyGnquroaNzFO


Yeeeeoooooo

Now! Ignoreing allllll the sugered words i know one thing


Your wax wont be melting off like on the all black boards

Looks good cant wait to try one