Anyone else having a hard time deciphering manufacturer marketing **** from actual flight performance?

Is there a good site for choosing a kite? I'm not experienced enough yet to be able to look at a kite and figure how it will fly. I've only learnt on a Torch - love it, fast & responsive but wind range is poor.

From what I read on http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm, we could classify kites as TRACTOR, ALL ROUND or SPEED. I think I'd like to try a Tractor for those variable days in waves & downwinders.

Tractor (Wake Style, Wave, Gusty Wind):
Moderate - Low AR
High Lift
Moderate Lift/Drag
High - Very High AoA


All Around
Moderate AR
Moderate Lift
High - Moderate Lift/Drag
Low AoA


Speed (High Jump, Freestyle) - I gather these are best for cutting & body dragging upwind?
High AR
Moderate Lift
High Lift/Drag
Low - Very Low AoA


Can anyone take a stab at classifying some of the popular options out there as above? Ozone Edge I think must be a 'Speed' kite ..

Look at the kite AR and that'll give you a pretty good indication.
This doesn't always hold true though, especially with the different delta style kites and the myriad of crossovers between the different styles (delta, delta-SLE, SLE, SLE-C, high depower-C, etc).

Best just looking through the beginner-intermediate kite recommendations and talking to your local schools and kite shops to find something that suits your experience and conditions.
After all, you wouldn't just buy a car based on the brochure... right?

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koma said...

Look at the kite AR and that'll give you a pretty good indication.
This doesn't always hold true though, especially with the different delta style kites and the myriad of crossovers between the different styles (delta, delta-SLE, SLE, SLE-C, high depower-C, etc).

Best just looking through the beginner-intermediate kite recommendations and talking to your local schools and kite shops to find something that suits your experience and conditions.
After all, you wouldn't just buy a car based on the brochure... right?

Agree with Koma. You can take two kites exactly the same and just the bridle will impact how they fly. There is no definitely yes/no guide. There are rules of thumb but they don't always follow a pattern - i.e. grunty kites generally turn slower

true enough - would be nice if they published some specs tho. I did fly some bridled flat looking learner kites in the 2 lessons I've had - didn't like them at all, sure they sat there but they were hard to 'work', slow two handed pigs to fly. Might as you suggest, try some demos - if I love one I'll flop out the credit card.

I would like easy upwind - so something with a high aspect ratio that sits forward in the window and moderate lift/drag (leading edge not too fat) for faster turning/light bar pressure. I don't really want a wave rider, reading a bit more about that I see why it's nice to have a bit of a tractor you can park sitting further into the window so you don't overfly it shooting down the face of a wave. I'm sticking to the freestyle board in chop & waves for now - maybe next season I will play around with a surfboard and go for a wave kite.

Guess I am looking for (to compliment the 9m Torch) something kinda swept back with a bridle (BOW?) to provide a bit more low down grunt and cover a wider wind range than the Torch. I like the kite to be a like my wife; volatile and sensitive to touch but if you position her right, a smooth ride.

Slingshot Octane? Airush Varial? Ozone Edge? .. others to try?

I'd go with another Torch if you've already got one.
Great kites, especially if your familiar with them.

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rollo19 said...

true enough - would be nice if they published some specs tho. I did fly some bridled flat looking learner kites in the 2 lessons I've had - didn't like them at all, sure they sat there but they were hard to 'work', slow two handed pigs to fly. Might as you suggest, try some demos - if I love one I'll flop out the credit card.

I would like easy upwind - so something with a high aspect ratio that sits forward in the window and moderate lift/drag (leading edge not too fat) for faster turning/light bar pressure. I don't really want a wave rider, reading a bit more about that I see why it's nice to have a bit of a tractor you can park sitting further into the window so you don't overfly it shooting down the face of a wave. I'm sticking to the freestyle board in chop & waves for now - maybe next season I will play around with a surfboard and go for a wave kite.

Guess I am looking for (to compliment the 9m Torch) something kinda swept back with a bridle (BOW?) to provide a bit more low down grunt and cover a wider wind range than the Torch. I like the kite to be a like my wife; volatile and sensitive to touch but if you position her right, a smooth ride.

Slingshot Octane? Airush Varial? Ozone Edge? .. others to try?

I agree there is too much fluff in kite descriptions by many brands, especially when some claim year in year out to be better than anything else yadayadayada.
The Torch is a C kite, they fly nice for sure, but as you have discovered lack wind range like all true C kites.

Sounds like you need a hybrid, and to me that term includes all SLE/Delta/Bow/etc style kites.
Ozone Catalyst will be more suited to what you describe, and maybe the C4? The Edge is a very lifty, powerful sweep turning kite, best suited to experienced riders who fall into the hooked in freestyle category, old school is another term used to describe us.
The Airush Lithium would suite you better or grab a bargain superseeded Octane.

Simply looking at a kite or judging it from certain characteristics, without flying it is hazardous and not an ideal way to choose a kite at all.
A larger leading edge tube is not something to shy away from, a larger LE tube allows a design to have a more deep draft in the profile, or less, and both have a much more significant effect on forward flight speed and performance than the diameter of the LE.

All kites fly in a wind window, more lifty kites have a slightly larger wind window, than kites that have less lift (more tractorish). Kite turning speed has a lot to do with bridling and you cannot tell much by looking at a kite bridle on the ground, you need to fly a kite to decide if you like the turning speed and lift characteristic.
Bridled high aspect ratio kites can still have a smaller wind window and less lift than a moderate aspect ratio bridled kite.

Its all a bit of a black art and I think thats why there is so much fluff in kite descriptions, and the descriptions are probably written by copywriters, not kiters!

I forgot to ask... how much wind range do you want out of this kite?

Modern high depower C's like the Torch don't have a bad wind ranges, but they're also not light wind weapon or mega-depower kites. The 12m C's of recent years tend to get ~80kg rider going in 15kn with the optimum range of ~17-20kn, and a top end of ~26-28kn... so a total 13kn wind range.
If you want more range than this then your going to have to go to a high-depower bridled kite, which means compromising on the C-feel that you seem to like with your current Torch.

Demo, demo, demo. You'll find something that'll put a smile on your face... and when you do, that's the one. ;)

On the forums you will only get people's opions.
Go to a shop, like West Oz kiteboarding if your in WA he has a good range tell him what your looking, buget and what you are used too and im sure you can demo the kites as well.
The only way of deciding on a kite is by trying them.

Sound advice thanks guys. OK so I guess my frustration with the manufacturer hype has a lot to do with my ignorance - some are starting to make sense now. Many thanks kitewpower auz for the practical run down. I'd like to try the C4 & the Lithium. Octane write up sounds good too.

I took your advice & went to Pinaroo Pt - the AKS team there kindly hooked me up with a couple to demo:

9m Ozone Edge - it was a bit overpowered for me on the day (72kg newbie in something like 25 knots) but **** it was nice to fly - it pulled smooth making it easy to switch etc, turned nicely - all very predictable. No rope chafe on my fingers - bar etc seemed nicely made. Managed a bit of apparent wind, I had to edge hard upwind to bring the ****er under control. A lady there made it look easy to get good air and then AKS Darren made it look incredible. Once I get better at unhooking and doing some lil newbie jumps on the Torch, I think I will be back to look at this again.

8m North Rebel - not as 'smooth' as the Edge but handled the gusts well. Very easy to keep under control and good pull for riding switch etc. Responsive & quick to turn but not much pop compared to the Torch. Great for waves too I guess. Some there thought it presented a bit of bar pressure but I thought it was a pretty easy one handed fly. I am considering this for those high wind days when I am too scared to take the Torch out or for a down wind run in the surf. Could also double as something for my wife to learn on in lighter winds if she gets into it - might be the excuse I need for spending approval

Kona you're right on re the car analogy - though I've bought a few unseen. Some specs do help to narrow things down though (if you think know what you're looking for) when wading through so many options. 4 Wheels not 3, 150-200KW, ~1.5 tonne A/C cheap as with a big boot

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Kitepower Australia said...

The Torch is a C kite, they fly nice for sure, but as you have discovered lack wind range like all true C kites.

Just another totally inaccurate portrayal of the modern C kite. Yes if your Torch is 07 or older it will have a limited wind range but the TRUTH is many C kites have as good a wind range as many Hybrids. I had my 9m Torch out in 35-40knt last season and was quite comfortable, I can think of a long list of hybrids which I wouldn't even consider taking that size out in those winds.

If they have such a limited wind range do all of my local C kite riders get away with 2 kite quivers from 12-40knt?

Your little anti C kite agenda has been going on for a few years Steve and you forecast they would disappear all together but they are still around and going strong, why is that?

I have no intention of starting the old "I can ride XX size to XX knots" thread but lets keep it real.

After all this is a HYPE Vs Specs thread.

Jason
BrisKites

A 13 knot wind range on a kite seems like a big wind range. I ride a bridled kite and am comfortably get about 11m wind range. So if a C kite gets this much range then that to me is pretty awesome. I learnt on c kites and I was only getting about a 7 knot wind range.

Get out and demo a few, marketing hype. I don't think I have ever gotten the mileage in my cars, as advertised on the brochures, same with kites.

KR

i just! get going at 17knts on my 7m meter 2010 vegas and wil call it quits at bout 25-27knts max. ideal wind is 20knts for unhooked riding. weigh 60ish kgs

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BrisKites said...

Kitepower Australia said...

The Torch is a C kite, they fly nice for sure, but as you have discovered lack wind range like all true C kites.

Just another totally inaccurate portrayal of the modern C kite. Yes if your Torch is 07 or older it will have a limited wind range but the TRUTH is many C kites have as good a wind range as many Hybrids. I had my 9m Torch out in 35-40knt last season and was quite comfortable, I can think of a long list of hybrids which I wouldn't even consider taking that size out in those winds.

If they have such a limited wind range do all of my local C kite riders get away with 2 kite quivers from 12-40knt?

Your little anti C kite agenda has been going on for a few years Steve and you forecast they would disappear all together but they are still around and going strong, why is that?

I have no intention of starting the old "I can ride XX size to XX knots" thread but lets keep it real.

After all this is a HYPE Vs Specs thread.

Jason
BrisKites

Chill mate.
Where's this anti C kite agenda, its just not real is it? Discuss the topic, not me.

And it really looks like you did start a claimer post with "12-40 knots with 2 c kites", and you talk about keeping it real? Everyone here thats kited a few years knows thats a BS claim and you need 3 C's to cover that wind range safely and to have fun.

We have plenty of C kite riders down here in Sydney and I have them on demo, as we sell Fuels, although not many. We have a few local Torch and vegas riders, but none of these guys will get on here and claim the kites are renowned for their wind range, they ride them for other, REAL reasons.

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doonut said...

i just! get going at 17knts on my 7m meter 2010 vegas and wil call it quits at bout 25-27knts max. ideal wind is 20knts for unhooked riding. weigh 60ish kgs

Yes true, unhooked wind range is a different thing.

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Kitepower Australia said...

BrisKites said...

Kitepower Australia said...

The Torch is a C kite, they fly nice for sure, but as you have discovered lack wind range like all true C kites.

Just another totally inaccurate portrayal of the modern C kite. Yes if your Torch is 07 or older it will have a limited wind range but the TRUTH is many C kites have as good a wind range as many Hybrids. I had my 9m Torch out in 35-40knt last season and was quite comfortable, I can think of a long list of hybrids which I wouldn't even consider taking that size out in those winds.

If they have such a limited wind range do all of my local C kite riders get away with 2 kite quivers from 12-40knt?

Your little anti C kite agenda has been going on for a few years Steve and you forecast they would disappear all together but they are still around and going strong, why is that?

I have no intention of starting the old "I can ride XX size to XX knots" thread but lets keep it real.

After all this is a HYPE Vs Specs thread.

Jason
BrisKites

Chill mate.
Where's this anti C kite agenda, its just not real is it? Discuss the topic, not me.

And it really looks like you did start a claimer post with "12-40 knots with 2 c kites", and you talk about keeping it real? Everyone here thats kited a few years knows thats a BS claim and you need 3 C's to cover that wind range safely and to have fun.

We have plenty of C kite riders down here in Sydney and I have them on demo, as we sell Fuels, although not many. We have a few local Torch and vegas riders, but none of these guys will get on here and claim the kites are renowned for their wind range, they ride them for other, REAL reasons.

What, so now your accusing me of being a liar? BS ain't my thing. I think you have that area all tied up.
As I said "I have no intention of starting the old "I can ride XX size to XX knots" thread" Because talk is just talk and real world riding is where it counts.

I would classify kites in the following groups,c,c-hybrid,bow,delta if your looking for a kite that gives a bigger windrange than the torch then i would go for a c-hybrid,as youll probably not like the turning speed of the others as compared with the c,try the park and the c4.
Have ridden in wellington nz for the last 10 years and i dont think there's many places that are as gusty as here,but the new style c-hybrid kites seem to manage most of the time,i do go bow for my real high end kites as 15-35knot days are not uncommon here.