I have just started kiting and i was wondering if there is any trick to keeping the sand / salt out of the pulleys. Everytime i check they are ceased up even after one session. I usually clean them before going out but sand is basically unavoidable when launching / landing on the beach.
Cheers.

probably stating the bleeding obvious, but better to check and hose / rinse them down AFTER each session ??

Just take them off all together.
It could the future for pulley maintenance.

I give them a bit of a turn when packing and a quck check when doing up the strut clips after pumping.

Avoid kites with the pulleys attached directly to the leading edge bladder. The pulleys get ground into the sand. The Swithcblade 3 now has the pulleys on a little leaders and that reduces the chances of clogging.

I would love it if the roller was multi-coloured so you could easily see if the pulley was going around when working the lines. That would be very handy.

I use 5-line kites but from what I've seen, most bridled kites use Ronstan microblocks or similar small roller bearing pulleys??? They are actually pretty good - used them lots in my sailing days. You can usually give them a spin to get sand out - they are likely to lock up if you load them up with sand in them but the line should still run in/out (wear on line). You could go to a chandlery and replace them with a nylon or metal sheeve type bearing, which would be heavier and lower load rating but probably more sand-proof (has anyone else done this?).

Before heading out, dip the edge of each kite in the ocean- gives them a quick rinse. If you have a SS Rev, the pulleys are ** and remove that stupid bloody sleeve they put over the pulleys- just retains sand. My next kite will be a North (no pulleys) due to the troubles I have had with my SS Rev.

Thanks for all of your replies,
The kite i am using is a Switchblade3. i think the quick dip in the ocean before you start could do the trick, and checking the pulleys straight after will stop the salt ceasing them up. The reason i don't hose down the kite afterwards is because i have been told not to store the kite wet and i usually finish up after sundown.

I don't think a quick swoosh in the water really helps all that much (it doesn't hurt). If sand is jammed in then just applying water is not going to flush it out. If you wet the pulley before you launch you are just going to make the sand stick to it.

The most effective way I have found to unclog pulleys is to pinch the line tight around the roller then work the roller back and forth until it moves freely.

The Ronstan kite blocks are just fine. I have used them on kites since they first came out with no problems (long before bow kites). The more expensive roller bearing pulleys are made to rotate more freely but they are designed for yachts where they are not dragged around in the sand.

I don't think pulleys are a problem. There are many more Switchblades than Rebels at my local beaches but you see more guys having problems with the Rebels. They are great kites in the hands of expert kiters but they seem to be a nightmare for the less skilled.

I've had a 07 Boxer and now have a 08 Cult. The bridle that ran throught the pulleys broke within a few months on my Boxer and was replaced under warranty. The same bridle on my Cult is showing substantial wear after a dozen sessions despite rinsing the lines and pulley after every session (pain in the arse). Ronstan pulleys have been around for ever and clogged or otherwise don't damage quality spectre style line (ie my experience is on surf cats where they do get clogged with sand). Amazingly when you make your own bridles out of spectre like Flexifoil have on their atoms bridle wear ceases to be a problem. I use 4mm (I think its 500kg spectre) and as a replcement and the bigger diameter not only lasts longer but forces the pulley to roll and frees it up. My trim line is going the same way and I've replaced that with 12mm spectre (1250kg I think). Wear problems dissappear when quality blocks are complimented by quality lines.

PS If you read your Cult manual it advises to replace the bridles every three months...... a recognition that there is a wear problem after using the same lines on the SLE in 07 perhaps.....who knows.

I posted this up a month ago but never got a reply from anyone owning a CORE kite.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36542

I agree about the ronstan pulleys. They look like cheap crap.

I want to change my REVs to these Riley pulleys.

The Ronstan pulleys have a sharp edge on the plastic roller that twists up your bridle line when they jam.

The Riley roller is machined aluminium with no sharp edges and doesnt look like it can get sand into it and jam up. Apparently they still jam tho.

P.S. I havent had any major dramas with my Ronstan pulleys yet. After about 3-6 sessions I'll get a tub of water and rinse them out, turn them and make sure no sand is in them.
I wouldnt take that neoprene cover off the Rev's wingtip pulley. It doesnt retain stuff all sand and will prevent bridle tangles.

The Revs are an awesome kite regardless. I guess doing a little maintenance is a small price to pay for 4 line simplicity and convenience.

I have a bucket load of those riley pulleys from last year if anyone wants or needs any. Just cost you the postage. Let me know.

We thought they would wear quickly on the 06 waroo's, but we didnt replace any.

When the roller jams up on the riley's, they tend to really wear the bridle line more than a jammed Ronstan with plastic roller. But they dont chip or break away like the Ronstans, and last a bit longer.

Joe

when i had pulley kites (I now ride Ozone's - ZERO puleys) I'd just hang them out the end when wrapping up the kite and hang them out the top of the bag when putting it away.
Then once home, i'd blast them with the hose or drink bottle.

Didn't work, they busted the bridle, themselves and tried to kill me.

The Ronstan pulleys work well, no need to switch over to some other brand.
The only one I have ever broken was a Riley, the one with the brass pulley wheel!

Ronstan developed those pulleys specifically for use on kites, and they work well even in a sandy environement.

Free them up before a session how Gorgo said to do it.

Almost all of the bridle line wearing fast and break issues are caused by the kite companies not spending enough R&D time to ensure that the bridle and the pulley work in alignment.

Cabrinha discovered the cause of the wear on the 07 kites and there has been a dramatic reduction in wear, bridle breakage, etc, since.

Cabrinha added very short loops of spliced bridle line to the pulley attachment points, this had the effect of allowing the pulley to rotate enough so that the axis of the pulley is properly aligned with the bridle.

Examine the pulleys on your kite, if they have signs of wear on one edge of the grey plastic on either side (but not both sides) then you have a problem with the pulley not being able to align itself. Adding a short spliced loop to the attachment point at the back of the pulley should help, but test how you kite flys in light winds first.

Some kites, you will not be able to easily fix the alignment issue, so just keep a close eye on your bridles and pulleys. Pulleys are approx $6 each, bridle line can be purchased by the metre for around $2.50, your life and safety are worth more than that!
Same can be said for 5th lines, where they run through the bar, if it looks real furry change it.

Rev owners should remove the neoprene sleeve from the back of the pulley that is attached to the leading edge, it does cause alignment and rapid bridle wear issues.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

isn't it interesting that such a simple mechanical fault can appear in the latest and greatest kites. It really shows how little time and effort goes into designing equipment that has the potential to kill you quite quickly if it fails.
This sort of a set up is called a fatal flaw. All kites that have pulleys that don't allign square to the line of pull will eventually wear through the bridle line and cause it to jam in the pulley, which will cause it to bust apart.
Like this one...


This one isn't, but even properly alligned pulleys will wear bridle lines.

Do cars come with steering components that wear out and result in a complete loss of steering?

Who wants to replace anything on their kite every 3 months? Do you replace the tyres on your car every 3 months cause it's not alligned or designed poorly? Do you buy another car built the same way?...

Choice is yours but "Does it have pulleys?" should be the first question when buying a kite.

Sorry for hijacking your simple question, I've had no wind for a while, that innocent looking pulley could've ended my life, and I think the issue is going to become massive when all these pulley kites are 5 years old and being sold for $200.

Steve is right about lining up the pull on the pulleys to be straight and square to the bridle.

WalshD gave this link to the Core website, what'dya reckon Steve?

Hey kitedevil. Is that pulley from a link on one of the middle lines?

Just to give SS a bit of credit instead of bashing, the Rev has a completely different bridle to the link. It does not tangle and the pulleys it does have are under minimal loading compared to the link's bridle.

I'll prob keep with the ronstan ones for the time. I just thought the riley ones may have been 'maintenance free'

I'm not "bashing" anyone. Just trying to point out that pulleys are one thing to avoid, regardless of manufacturer. Either because manufacturers don't give a toss, can't figure it out or because pulleys are in general, a weak link. Why?, because they are a moving mechanical device. The fewer weak links in your set-up the better off you are, especially if you treat your kites like your surfboard. Put it in the bag and get it out when your going to use it.

If kite designers knew what they were doing these problems would never have appeared.

Like Steve says : "Almost all of the bridle line wearing fast and break issues are caused by the kite companies not spending enough R&D time to ensure that the bridle and the pulley work in alignment."

Some of them have EIGHT pulleys that's a lot of piss arseing around, may as well own a friggin yacht! [}:)]

But that pulley is from a Slingshot Link right?

I werent saying that you are bashing. I just wanted to give SS a bit of praise before they are slammed for a failure on their Link.

You are dead right about the pulley arguement, but I reckon the Rev should hold up better than the Link because its pulleys are not directly loaded up and thus should be under much lower loading.

The link's pulleys were loaded up like a F-one bandit. Prob why F-one use a metal pulley with higher load rating.

I never said what kite it's from and I don't think it's relevant to the err, thread hijacking that's going on here by moi. naming brands just ends up with drawn out BS. The point i'm trying to make is they are an unnecessary risk and clever designers can and should phase them out.

It's just an example of what can happen to pulleys when used as part of a traction kite, which as you know can be under massive loads. Adding sand to the mixture is just does not compute. They dont belong on these toys, them bad things, don't like them. [}:)]

20-30kn tomorrow.. mood improving...

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walshd said...

But that pulley is from a Slingshot Link right?

I werent saying that you are bashing. I just wanted to give SS a bit of praise before they are slammed for a failure on their Link.

You are dead right about the pulley arguement, but I reckon the Rev should hold up better than the Link because its pulleys are not directly loaded up and thus should be under much lower loading.

The link's pulleys were loaded up like a F-one bandit. Prob why F-one use a metal pulley with higher load rating.

Why do you think the Rev pulleys are lightly loaded?
Just because a flying line is not directly connected to a pulley, DOES NOT mean it is lightly loaded and in fact it can be loaded even higher due to leverage and the geometry of the bridle.

@KiteDevil, agree no point at all naming any brands. Its hard to avoid, and lets leave it there, the Rev is a good kite, some minor details need to be tweaked.
Don't forget that if a line breaks on any kite you have a seriously out of control kite.
Its not always helpful to compare kites to everyday highly researched, highly priced, and extremely regulated things like cars.

What we do is risky, there are inherent risks that cannot be removed, regardless of whether the kite you use has a pulley on it or not.

Anyone still around from the early days learend on 2 line kites all of which had pulleys and basically flew like sh1t! Thats why I flew foils for a few years until inflatos got much better.

I love the feel of the Pulleyless Ozones and I also really like the Rev and the Cabs too, as well as several other kites, some of which have pulleys and some of which do not. Its not about the pulleys, and ALL about performance and well researched, low maintenance designs. I have used my SB3's heaps this season and no sign od bridles or pulleys needing replacement. (because the pulleys and bridles are aligned from the factory)

The Riley and Ronstan pulleys are almost identical in design, but one has a brass pulley wheel, and this does seem to give more trouble in the presence of sand, than the plastic wheeled Ronstans, which were designed to be used in the presence of sand.
Pulleys are a disposable maintenance item, even the ones on the Fone bandit fron bridals.

Cya and

Goodwinds

steve

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Kitepower Australia said...

Don't forget that if a line breaks on any kite you have a seriously out of control kite.
Its not always helpful to compare kites to everyday highly researched, highly priced, and extremely regulated things like cars.

What we do is risky, there are inherent risks that cannot be removed, regardless of whether the kite you use has a pulley on it or not.

I used to fly 2 line kites too Steve, but that's not the point.

The less potential things to go wrong the better, it's called the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid.

What's going to break first, a line, a pulley, or a bridle that a pulley runs on? (remember we are adding sand to the equation)

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KiteDevil said...

Kitepower Australia said...

Don't forget that if a line breaks on any kite you have a seriously out of control kite.
Its not always helpful to compare kites to everyday highly researched, highly priced, and extremely regulated things like cars.

What we do is risky, there are inherent risks that cannot be removed, regardless of whether the kite you use has a pulley on it or not.

I used to fly 2 line kites too Steve, but that's not the point.

The less potential things to go wrong the better, it's called the KISS principle. Keep It Simple Stupid.

What's going to break first, a line, a pulley, or a bridle that a pulley runs on? (remember we are adding sand to the equation)

Yep, agree 100% the kiss principle works for sure, however there are good kites out there that have pulleys and bridles that do not give much trouble, I know mine were fine for a whole season and we really do not see much call for servicing bridles and pulleys.
Some cars have longer service intervals than others, Ozone is one of kite brands that fits in that category in our sport, they simply have less moving parts.

There are kites that really do need to have the kiss principle applied to them for sure, and some of the bar and lines out there are even worse!!

And there are kites that do have some extra moving bits, that are well designed and do not require high maintenance too.

But I agree that for a lot of good reasons less=more in kiting designs.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Good point about pulley alignment which reinforces the fact that if the bridles were the correct diameter line for the pulley then alignment would, in theory, be constant. The diameter of the line should compliment the diameter of the concave on the roller. I changed the bridles on my Cult from the pi$$ weak 2or 3mm stuff to 4mm and suddenly the wear dissappears because the line can't misalign with the pulley anymore. Its the kind of commonsense that many kite manufacturers seem to pass on in order to increase profits and market share each season. You don't see yachts with 5mm ropes going through blocks designed for 20mm ropes so why do we have kites with blocks that would suit 5mm lines but have 2mm lines running through them. A stainless ring would probably work just as well. And while I'm having a whinge kite companies using what could be considered inadequate components and then supporting their use by saying it "saves weight and increases performance" demonstrate just how inept they are. I saw a review in kiteboarder where the selling point was an unpainted canopy which, according to the reviewer, reduced the weight of the kite and increased performance. In light of the expert opinion of a journalist for a magazine I'm going to get a plain red kite with no paint (cause red is faster) take all the sleeves off the larks heads (their worth a few grams like the paint) and have it restitched with smaller diameter thread (another few grams) then I'll have a high performing kite with the kind of durability it seems many kite manufacturers are aiming for in the future. I look forward to having the worlds best performing kite that has to be replaced every week and the joy that comes from falling out of the sky attached to a looping kite when a bridle fails mid flight.

So.... Just recapping, cut all the pulleys off and tie the bridle on with shoelaces.

I called Ronstan today and got to speak to a person in the technical department who is a kitesurfer and had recieved several complaints about (you guessed it) blocks wearing bridles. They posted me the findings of their research (which I can't publish on the forum) however I can say that pulley misalignment is the cause of bridle wear and not the roller ceasing due to sand.The kite blocks are designed for line with a maximum diameter of 4mm and will work best with this diameter rope because it keeps the rope and pulley aligned. More importantly the blocks need to be "in-line" loaded, that is not tied on with a cow hitch like most manufacturers use. The results of the research indicate that the way we get pulleys attached by some manufacturers to kites reduces their load capacity and increases line wear by around 50% on average. The best bit is that Ronstan have sent the kite manufacturers their reccommendations for how to fit their products, some have done so and others have not. If you want to reduce bridle wear increase the diameter of the bridle line and attach the pulley "in-line" and not with a cow hitch. Apparently cabrinha (07) have the pulleys attached in the correct fashion. If you want the details call Ronstan and they will email them or just buy a brand that attaches pulleys as per the manufacturers reccommendation after all if we don,t follow their reccomendations our warranties are voided why shouldn't the same apply to them? The pictures posted by kitedevil show pulleys attached by cow hitches which causes them to load on one side and misalign, according to Ronstan a loop through the block would be better. My Cult is set up as per the reccomendations but the bridle is still wearing fast????????? any ideas?????????

i like the shoelace idea.

But seriously there's the point right there. Engineering type pulley dudes even telling them how to do and they still can't, kite companies are even advertise the wrong setup.

FFS. Some of these "Kite Designers" need SHOOTING.

Glad they don't make abseiling equipment, paragliders, parachutes, bungy ropes etc etc etc... [}:)]

Fuuk I had a great session today...

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metalmongrel said...
[.... My Cult is set up as per the reccomendations but the bridle is still wearing fast????????? any ideas?????????

What sort of kite line do you have? Do you check your pulleys before each session?

My Cabrinhas have Amsteel (grey dyneema) and it does not wear at all. At worst it gets a little fluffy.

I can understand people having philosopical problems with pulleys (I personally hate 5-lines, battens and separate pumps) but it's just an opinion. It's not really borne out by facts.

My experience is that pulleys are not a problem at all. In recent years I have had 4 kites with 100+ hours each and no sign of pulley or bridle wear. Over the years I would have put up at least 700 hours on kites with pulleys and only had one breakage that I could attribute to a pulley.

Gorgo, my mate has a cabrinha and he hasn't had any bridle problems either and I'm sure its because of the Dyeema. What was on my Cult was a type of spectre (I think) meaning it has a fibre core wrapped in a braided sheath. All you have to do is wear through the sheath and the line breaks. Also it is quite thin, matbe twice the diameter if a kite line. Dyeema on the other hand doesn't seem to have a core so you have to wear quite a way through it for it to break. The flexifoil 08 atom seems to have the mix right, large diameter dyeema with the pulleys attached as per the manufacturers reccomendations. Given the awesome amount of boost and hangtime you can get with a CULT it seems commonsense to have overengineered the lines for safety reasons. Who knows? The CULT is a great kite to fly it just needs an upgrade in the bridle area in my opinion.

I would replace the sheathed line with Amsteel/Dybeena/grey stuff. It's cheap enough from a sailing store.

My only bridle line break occurred when the core got worn inside the sheath. You can't see the wear through the sheath and eventually it just breaks.

I used to make my own chicken loop lines using sheathed line and it was ok that the sheath wore out before the core. It would be a bastard on a pulley line because it would jam the pulley.

I have spoken to Ronstan about this issue of the pulleys wearing bridles, getting caught done the side of the pulley ect.

I use them in the kite factory i work for and we have had no problems with 1 or 2 exceptions. The reason why they have these problems is because of the way they are attached to the kite. They need to be able to move freely when attached.
There are a few brands that are still not attaching them correctly.

Also they should be useing a bridle peace similar to what Best is useing 4mm dyneema rope is perfect. You normaly see this rope being used as the bar leader lines.

The kite Blocks arnt specificly designed for kites either also they arent cheap!!! Used correctly they shouldnt give any problems but still when setting up ou kite you should check your bridles at the same time you make sure they are not caught or knotted up.

The pic that kitedevil put up is a good example of how not to connect a pulley!! once the rope tightens it will pull the pulley on a angle that they wernt designed for.