Hi all

I'm in the market for a new kite, (replacing a Naish torch). The problems i had with the torch, were,

- difficulty re-launching, just could not get the hang of it.

- Instability in gusty winds, (my mate has a park and it performed much better than my torch in dirty wind).

- Not as much low end power (again my mate could use his park in much lighter winds even though both my torch and his park were 12m kites, i understand they are very different kites however)

As for my riding skills, i think my kite skills are much better than my board skills, I'm confident in flying the kite, self launching, body dragging, and my overall kite control i think is pretty good. My board skills however are terrible, i come from a snowboarding background and i am having real trouble adapting my board skills so i would like a kite that i can happily use and concentrate on what im doing with my board and not have to worry to much about the kite.

so these were the main things i had troubles with and would like to address with a new kite purchase.

The 2 that have caught my eye at the moment and are in my price range are a

12m 2012 flexifoil proton
and a 12m 2012 ozone C4

I wanted some advice about the differences of these kites, and if they could help address the issues i outlined ???

any other kite suggestions would be welcome

thanks for helping another annoying newbie

Guess no one has any advice for me

hi maxiy

i don't have anywhere near as much experience on flying different sorts of kites over the years as some guys who might weigh in still (cheer up the blue face, it takes some people a while to pipe up ), but i'll give you my 2 cents to get the ball rolling.

i reckon you are going for the wrong style of ktie as a beginner. go for more of a hybrid/park and ride style of kite that gives you stability, steady power on demand and good depower to handle gusts since you are not instinctively flying the kite with board adjustment etc just yet.
this is why the park (good for freeride, bridled, hybrid style C kite) seems so much better then the torch to you....and personally, i found the park a little gutless for my riding when tried, so there is definitely scope for a new kite to blow your mind a little.
soooo, shelve the C4 idea and go for a catalyst for example if you want to try ozone. the proton seems fine - though i've only read the marketing specs. but each brand will have its own variation that will give you the beginner to intermediate consistency you need. (and trust me, with a kite like the cat, or north rebel/fuse for example, in the hands of an advanced rider it will still do everything wanted and maybe more - so don't think you will out progress it)

then get a C kite later on if you want to take your looping and unhooking up a notch... i hear the C4 is great for loops.

so have a happy hunt, or get down to your local store and speak to the most knowledgeable person there to see if they have another one to recommend in your situation. i'd also buy 2012 model if i were you, and get more options for your bucks.
cheers
maz

i agree with mazdon i would probably look more into hybrid rather than a c kite while your getting into it. i used to have a switchblade and found that to be one of the easiest kites to park and ride with really good depower. I now have C4's and it isnt a park and ride kind of kite you really need to work it to get the most out of it.

Thanks Guys great help, has cleared a few things up for me.

so Maxdon, you would say that the north rebel would be a suitable kite for a beginnner? I was actually looking at them when i bought the torch (thought going balls out with a c kite was a good way to learn = idiot)

There seem to be quite a few on seabreeze at the moment, so would be relativly easy to get hold of one. Do you think they will be similar to the Naish Park ??

maxiy

i learnt on a rebel in 05/06 so am a little biased - but yes i would say it is bullet proof. some people might say the fifth line wraps during a crash, but i never experienced it (didn't crash overly much tbh, clued on very early about not stalling the kite, not choking bar etc). rebel are pretty reknowned for power and good freeride ability, strong construction yayayada
my brother rides a park as a first year kiter, hence why i piped up, and he has progressed rapidly on it. felt fine when i had a go, i just didn't think it had as much balls as i expected - there are heaps of variables as to why that could be, i am not trying to rubbish the kite, just not my cuppa.

i have also heard cabs are great for beginners as mrpapy noted, and obviously the drifter is a great wave kite if you were interested in that path, and would be pretty straight forward as a beginner not interested in jumping too much - but since in ACT, maybe you will want to boost and should go something like the rebel....

any chance you can try someones? that is really the only way to know, sometimes you get on a kite and it just clicks - other times it is liek the kite is "broken" due to the operator error haha


i am scared that mrpapy agrees with me (due to his profile pic)

Well it doesn't sound like you are a total beginner. Naish torch isn't that their main C kite? Excuse my ignorance.

What style are you looking for maxiy? What weight are you, what board do you currently use and what wind and water conditions are you in.

With that information I can chuck my two bobs worth in at least.

Suggest once you narrow this down to pm each individual and get more details on each kite that pricks your interest.

I am pretty sure the torch is a C kite / hybrid and a decent one at that.

Some of the suggestions are a long way from this kite and the style it delivers. Again where you wanna go?

If it includes a more freestyle path then ignore my suggestion to try a Mako.

Designed in Canada they require that front foot approach that snowboards have. I'm the other way around not coming from a snow boarding background and have had to adjust to get the best out of it. Got it now and it rocks for what I do.

Quality wise, definitely Ozone. Personally i would buy second hand Ozone over New Proton.

The question is:

what's the re-sale value of flexifoil proton? Sounds like non mainstream kite.

ok, ok, if that's not the issue, ignore the above.

The bar pressure is not something to ignore. Try first, or feel the pain latter. Duno about any of this kites, just saying to try it.

Hey lets see what info he gives first or we are advising blind. Although I agree with what you've said above per say.

Maxiy,
It does sound like you have bitten off a little more than you can chew with the Torch, you are aware that the Torch is not designed to relaunch of the rear line like a SLE or bow kite? it requires one more step, rolling the canopy onto its back to position it before the rearline will take effect.
The power thing is also understandable, the Torch is a true C kite and has a lot of the canopy "pointing back" at you on the wingtips, hence not generating pull, but very effective for turning. the Park is more open span and therefore has more canopy catching the wind size for size.
The stability difference is a little hard to understand as the Torch is actually a very stable canopy, however it is very direct so this could be what you are feeling, each gust transfering directly through the control system, and also the lower depower not allowing you to spill power as well as a bridled kite.

As for what you should look for to replace the Torch, that is really going to come down to where you are using it. Are you actually kiting in LBG? if so then control and top end should be high priorities and seeing as you are already comfortable with the Naish system and liked your mates Park then there is no reason you shouldnt get yourself one, it and the C4 are similar design aims by the different companies. If you are riding down the coast then like others have said there are some good SLE canopies that will give you more power than your mates Park, even if you went the same size, they are just unlikely to have the same top end and may be less engaging to fly. Seeing as that is what you say you are looking for then look for something known for grunt and not particularly for speed. The two that stand out are Rebel/Fuse from North or Cab crossbow, but there are tons of others that would also work. Just keep in mind that more power on tap will genrally also mean more power that you cant turn off if you get a black gust on the lake, so do weigh up the power you want versus the control you need. I personally would look for a kite with lots of top end and stability like the old Bolt for kiting the lake.

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dorothyinste said...
Quality wise, definitely Ozone. Personally i would buy second hand Ozone over New Proton.

I fly ozones, but the is nothing wrong with the build of flexifoils, and the service is of the highest I've ever come across, a lot of landboarders use flexifoil which says it all you don't want to be hanging 30 ft up on a badly built bit of kit

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cauncy said...

dorothyinste said...
Quality wise, definitely Ozone. Personally i would buy second hand Ozone over New Proton.

I fly ozones, but the is nothing wrong with the build of flexifoils, and the service is of the highest I've ever come across, a lot of landboarders use flexifoil which says it all you don't want to be hanging 30 ft up on a badly built bit of kit

Hmm, local shop used to sell Flexifoil. Personally know one customer who brought brand new Proton. Not a good kite to learn on. After one season of riding, valves starting to delaminate, stitching starting to unravel, chicken loop broke.
The Proton has spent more time going back to the shop for repairs than any other kite i have known.
Local shop has decided not to continue selling Proton.
Personal choice i guess. Caveat Emptor.

Thanks for all the replies guys

just to clear one thing up, i dont kite on LBG (however i'am still entertaining the idea)
I normally kite on a lake down the coast, so as far as water conditions go it is normally flat as a tack, no chop at all, the wind is just more steady and reliable down the couth coast.

style wise i am not realy sure what style i want hahaha, freestyle, and free ride would probably fit closest i guess. I weigh 75kgs, and i ride a 135 slingshot misfit. I have been flying kites for about 5 years now, started on foils landboarding and such, However only got flying inflatos last year, and started on the board last year, so i think my kite flying skills are ok, i am pretty confident in flying the kite and generally things have to go pretty pear shaped for me to be uncomfortable when flying the kite. The thing that is giving me trouble is my board skills, to put it lightly i am horrible at it hahaha. In the right conditions i can get up and ride heel side, can even ride upwind a little, i have to stop when changing direction and i have no hope in the surf what so ever.

So i guess what iam looking for is a kite that i can not worry about so much while iam riding along so i can concentrate on what i am doing with the board.

the three kites i have got out of your comments and from other people are

Cab Switchblade/crossbow
Naish Park
North rebel/fuse

correct in thinking all of these kites would be suitable???
it is just a matter of finding one at the right price now hahaha

@ A Bomber

Hahaha yeah i think i did bite a little too much off, i orginally bought it cause i have a 2006 Naish 10M boxer, (which i think is the predecessor of the torch???) and i learnt on this kite and i love it, much smaller sized c kite however, and much older. I was aware of the process of the relauch, and i could get it now and then, but i just seemed to really struggle at getting the lower wingtip out of the water, it would begin to relaunch but the tip would stick in the water and just send the kite back onto its leading edge, i was probably doing something wrong.

thank you very much everyone

Well Im surpised to here that, i would have thought with 5 years or decent kite flying, then the board work would come much easier than it seems to.

Okay as you are not sure..but did mention freeride and freestyle the only kite in that selectin of yours I would recommend is the NAIsh Park.

The other kites are awesome freeride kites, but you start trying to loop say the fuse, rebel and SB (the new one a little diff I heard) you will get found out.

The park will allow some freestyle direction into the mix....

Another to consider would be the Airush Lithuim (more surf and jump), Wainmen Rabbit series (more surf, but can be turned into a direct C...worth thinking about) and the Ozone catalyst (would be my pick, does it all easily, like the park).


From what I can see you need a decent freeride kite that can move you into some freestyle...then you can get a more dedicated C kite if you so wish.

The kites you have mentioned before a very, very good freeride kites...but don't lend themselves to any freestyle, unless you are fairly skilled...and even then if you were you wouldnt be doing freestyle on these kites.

That's my two bobs worth...

There are other freeride/freestyle kites that others know more about and they might mention them. But I maintain this is the type of kite you want...

an allround freeride kite that has its all round bias lending towards the freestyle part of the spectrum.

A plug and play style kite that can do everything okay...but unhooks well enough and loops well enough...things I would not do on the kites you mentioned.

Have you checked the 5th line length, c kites can be a pig if it is to tight

Thanks Eppo

very knowledgeable, your advice and everyone's has been very appreciated. I think i will keep an eye out for either a 2012 park or a 2012 catalyst (very hard to find a 12m park at the moment)

@ pedleym I have looked at the fifth line a few times, as far as i know it is of adequate length, it flies fine in the air dont have trouble with it while in the air, just have trouble relaunching have about a 40% success rate


Thank you all much appreciated

Hi all thought i would update you on what i ended up purchasing

Eppo i ended up getting a 2013 12m Ozone Catalyst, and from the brief fly i have had I LOVE IT. I cant wait till the wind gets its act together and i can give it a real go. Thank you all for the responses, and cheers Eppo for all the advice, im incredibly impressed by the ozone in all aspects

cheers

Good choice maxi, but all the others would have done the job as well. Every kite brand has their own feel and you just get used to whatever you ride. I enjoy the ozone feel, very refined and smooth, but I have ridden most of the kites mentioned to and would say again they all have their own personalities and they all are very good kites. The new cat is indeed something else. I wasn't convinced on my first ride and from what I read, so it took 4 separate goes and 4 different sizes to be convinced. And I am.

New quiver...14m cat, 10 m edge and a 8m cat. Coupled with a mako king and mako 140 and a skim to keep me honest about what an average rider I really am!!! Ha ha.

Enjoy my man!


Ps yeh heard good things about the old boxer from a few crew hey.