Carrying on from ...

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Kiteboarder-review-of-the-Cloud-strutless-kites/

I have not tried one yet. I have made contact with Maui kites and hopefully someone nearby will have one to demo (doubt it).

But has anyone out there, since those reviews posted over a year ago, got anything more positive or negative to say?

I think technically, the kite is a single-skin depower kite like the Flysurfer Peak, which is NOT meant for water. However, this one is, yet I still think due to lack of struts, the kite can easily get caught like an anchor in the water.

Water relaunch is the thing I am after here, and want to know if anyone has any more experience with the Cloud and how it relaunches.

Thanks

I've been using a 7 & 12m for about 6 months. I've had no problem with relaunch at all. If you're in 7 to 12m conditions, the canopy never really touches the water and it's rolling over and taking off before you grab the bar. In really light conditions when the canopy might lay down, the wing tips are holding the ends up and it lifts off the water pretty easily with a gust. I've found the clouds to be different kites to fly. They're awesome kites, but take some getting used to.

Had the C2 12m out a few times, thinks its been down twice and came right back up. A friend uses the 9 and 6, puts them down occasionally and seems to get them up no problem. They just seem to want to fly.
We are strapless, on shoulder high waves.
Takes me up wind OK, turns like a smaller kite, power of a larger kite. My friend is often on 6 when otherare on 9s.
Also have gregs bar, like the simplicity very much. Not having depower string is not an issue, in fact I trim the kite when riding much better now. Before I was just setting the trim and keeping the bar fully sheeted most of the time, ie not much interaction with it - with the cloud you feel it more, it encourages you to feather it and get the best angle, I like that, like sailing. That said, its not a preoccupation, its kind of obvious in the bar feeling as you ride.
The pack takes up half, perhaps less, baggage than a normal kite, great to travel with. I can see myself getting a 17m for the summer and perhaps smaller ones too.

I have been making strut less kites for a while now just out of interest for something to do, put simply, they are just like a normal kite, but flap alot if you fully depower in strong winds, are much lighter in the air, relaunch is fine but have to wait until its drifts down wind for the wind to get under the leading edge tips, has alot more power to the size of kite.

I used a 12m strutless in the snow with a mate on a 21m flysurfer, wind was 3 to 5 knots, my 12m kept up with his 21m flysurfer in the light winds with the advantage of more deopwer in strong winds and much much faster turning = more fun. If i had a strutted kite it would be falling out of the sky in such light winds with the extra weight. I had to bring a pump, he did not, 12m packed up smaller than my 8m 5 strut kite, He had more top speed. if his 21m stopped flying, my 12m stopped flying. Water relaunch is not a problem.

They are also 25% to 30% cheaper to make with out all the one pump tubes, +6 to +10 valves, extra bladders, extra dacron, extra sewing and materials.

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KiteDesigner said..
I have been making strut less kites for a while now just out of interest for something to do, put simply, they are just like a normal kite, but flap alot if you fully depower in strong winds, are much lighter in the air, relaunch is fine but have to wait until its drifts down wind for the wind to get under the leading edge tips, has alot more power to the size of kite.

I used a 12m strutless in the snow with a mate on a 21m flysurfer, wind was 3 to 5 knots, my 12m kept up with his 21m flysurfer in the light winds with the advantage of more deopwer in strong winds and much much faster turning = more fun. If i had a strutted kite it would be falling out of the sky in such light winds with the extra weight. I had to bring a pump, he did not, 12m packed up smaller than my 8m 5 strut kite, He had more top speed. if his 21m stopped flying, my 12m stopped flying. Water relaunch is not a problem.

They are also 25% to 30% cheaper to make with out all the one pump tubes, +6 to +10 valves, extra bladders, extra dacron, extra sewing and materials.

Awesome! So you take out the struts off normal kites and..?? Are they on the market? Thanks for sharing.

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Loftywinds said..

KiteDesigner said..
I have been making strut less kites for a while now just out of interest for something to do, put simply, they are just like a normal kite, but flap alot if you fully depower in strong winds, are much lighter in the air, relaunch is fine but have to wait until its drifts down wind for the wind to get under the leading edge tips, has alot more power to the size of kite.

I used a 12m strutless in the snow with a mate on a 21m flysurfer, wind was 3 to 5 knots, my 12m kept up with his 21m flysurfer in the light winds with the advantage of more deopwer in strong winds and much much faster turning = more fun. If i had a strutted kite it would be falling out of the sky in such light winds with the extra weight. I had to bring a pump, he did not, 12m packed up smaller than my 8m 5 strut kite, He had more top speed. if his 21m stopped flying, my 12m stopped flying. Water relaunch is not a problem.

They are also 25% to 30% cheaper to make with out all the one pump tubes, +6 to +10 valves, extra bladders, extra dacron, extra sewing and materials.

Awesome! So you take out the struts off normal kites and..?? Are they on the market? Thanks for sharing.

No, its not simply a matter of taking off the struts, most kites have scalloping between the struts, have to remove that, also have to adjust the tension in the trailing edge to be perfectly balanced, also have to adjust the profile front curve not to cave in without strut supporting the profile shape, also have to ajust profile around wing tips to 0 and round it up to 100 near the top and make the bridle just right to keep the kite tension balanced. making a kite with struts is so much easier. I am working on something at the moment, and will make the strutless kites available in a month or 2. They have advantages and disadvantages.

You can play around by leaving struts un-inflated and see what it does to the flying characteristics. I tried with an old 12m Core GT (5 strut Delta) I wanted to use as a light wind wave kite. I found leaving the side struts un-inflated resulted in a lot of flutter through turns/loops and actually slowed the turns down. I ended up removing just the middle strut. In my desired wind range (ie light) there is no detrimental flutter and it seems to drift better. If the lines go slack it will luff a bit and drift back in the window, rather than holding its shape and efficiently falling out of the sky. Also one less strut to inflate is a plus!

Watching the various strutless videos, it is amazing how little flutter the designers can achieve.

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Jasonwave said..
Also have gregs bar, like the simplicity very much. Not having depower string is not an issue, in fact I trim the kite when riding much better now.
The pack takes up half, perhaps less, baggage than a normal kite, great to travel with. I can see myself getting a 17m for the summer and perhaps smaller ones too.

What skill level would you say is needed to use the Cloud and CCS well and safely? Any different to a normal beginners/intermediate kite?

I'm pretty interested in these, but have heard conflicting opinions on who they would suit best...

Flying the kite takes no more skill then any other kite. If you are new to kiteing, the differences in flying the Cloud might come easier because you aren't fighting the muscle memory developed with hours of flying a conventional kite. The main difference being the little amount of sheeting in and out needed to properly trim the kite. The Cloud kites will not flutter under load, it's sheeting out too far that results in the flutter. As a new kiter, the low wind re-launch might be a little harder then other kites, but really, you learn to use what you have. As far as the bar, it works just like any other control system, and again, you'll get used to what ever you are using. One of the main goals with the design of the Cloud was too make a kite that the designers Wife could learn to kite with in Maui, which is a very gusty place to kite.

I have the CCS, I like its simplicity and lightness very much. No issues adapting to it even on the first run. Without the chicken loop it allows you to bring the fully-sheeted-in position closer to your body, as well as the fully-sheeted out position so no back-bending to depower.

I dont ride TT, jump much or do circus tricks, just strapless surf, so that is my context.

Here is Ian Alldredge with a similar line system adapted to the BWS bar - but his only has the full-release snap shackle. The CCS is better in that it has the quick release to flagging option as well as full release. Its activated by pushing a release ball forward, similar to 'normal' chicken loop systems.

Regarding beginners, since they start with no preconceived ideas or habbits, I dont see any problem. Perhaps learning on a Cloud and CCS and then moving to the common system might seem strange, with all the added bulk.

I have not taken the CCS out in high wind and wave situations yet (ie smaller than 9m), and dont anticipate differences, but for bigger kites and lighter wind I think its refreshingly light and simple.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I emailed Greg from BRM a couple of months ago and he said pretty much the same thing regarding suitability for new kiters.

I'm looking at buying my first kite and bar, and I think it would be odd to be riding such an unusual kite while still botching waterstarts and doing walks of shame, but I can't help but find most things I've read about it pretty appealing. It was the CCS bar that initially attracted my attention admittedly - I was looking for thoughtful approaches to safety...

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tantrumizer said..
Thanks for the feedback guys. I emailed Greg from BRM a couple of months ago and he said pretty much the same thing regarding suitability for new kiters.

I'm looking at buying my first kite and bar, and I think it would be odd to be riding such an unusual kite while still botching waterstarts and doing walks of shame, but I can't help but find most things I've read about it pretty appealing. It was the CCS bar that initially attracted my attention admittedly - I was looking for thoughtful approaches to safety...

Lets us know what it's like once you get it!

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Loftywinds said..

tantrumizer said..
Thanks for the feedback guys. I emailed Greg from BRM a couple of months ago and he said pretty much the same thing regarding suitability for new kiters.

I'm looking at buying my first kite and bar, and I think it would be odd to be riding such an unusual kite while still botching waterstarts and doing walks of shame, but I can't help but find most things I've read about it pretty appealing. It was the CCS bar that initially attracted my attention admittedly - I was looking for thoughtful approaches to safety...

Lets us know what it's like once you get it!

Looked at various ways of getting one in to either Oz or New Caledonia without paying a lot of tax and making it uneconomical... and failed.

Work will take me via Honolulu in the coming year or two, so I might be able to demo and/or pick one up in person some time. Going with a more conventional kite for now, but still daydreaming about the Clouds and the CCS bar. :-)

Have a BRM C2 17 am a learner and love this kite it does just about everything you ask it to do using a carrot 2.0 bar on 21.5 m lines have handled it up,to,15- 17knts with little fear water relaunch has only been a problem in less than 5knts
will get a 12 with CCS as soon as the exchange rate goes up a bit.
Didn't have any problem with duty . Greg is great to liase with always responds with positive feedback.

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KiteDesigner said..
I have been making strut less kites for a while now just out of interest for something to do, put simply, they are just like a normal kite, but flap alot if you fully depower in strong winds, are much lighter in the air, relaunch is fine but have to wait until its drifts down wind for the wind to get under the leading edge tips, has alot more power to the size of kite.

I used a 12m strutless in the snow with a mate on a 21m flysurfer, wind was 3 to 5 knots, my 12m kept up with his 21m flysurfer in the light winds with the advantage of more deopwer in strong winds and much much faster turning = more fun. If i had a strutted kite it would be falling out of the sky in such light winds with the extra weight. I had to bring a pump, he did not, 12m packed up smaller than my 8m 5 strut kite, He had more top speed. if his 21m stopped flying, my 12m stopped flying. Water relaunch is not a problem.

They are also 25% to 30% cheaper to make with out all the one pump tubes, +6 to +10 valves, extra bladders, extra dacron, extra sewing and materials.

Do you see the strut less kites as the way forward in kite design for riding waves,free ride etc.In other words will they make kites with struts obsolete in the future. thanks

Is there anyone out there using a 9 or 12m C2 as a wave kite?

I'd like some feedback on how they go in regards to turning speed / bar pressure / drift
etc.

Cheers

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Ricardo1709 said..

KiteDesigner said..
I have been making strut less kites for a while now just out of interest for something to do, put simply, they are just like a normal kite, but flap alot if you fully depower in strong winds, are much lighter in the air, relaunch is fine but have to wait until its drifts down wind for the wind to get under the leading edge tips, has alot more power to the size of kite.

I used a 12m strutless in the snow with a mate on a 21m flysurfer, wind was 3 to 5 knots, my 12m kept up with his 21m flysurfer in the light winds with the advantage of more deopwer in strong winds and much much faster turning = more fun. If i had a strutted kite it would be falling out of the sky in such light winds with the extra weight. I had to bring a pump, he did not, 12m packed up smaller than my 8m 5 strut kite, He had more top speed. if his 21m stopped flying, my 12m stopped flying. Water relaunch is not a problem.

They are also 25% to 30% cheaper to make with out all the one pump tubes, +6 to +10 valves, extra bladders, extra dacron, extra sewing and materials.

Do you see the strut less kites as the way forward in kite design for riding waves,free ride etc.In other words will they make kites with struts obsolete in the future. thanks

Re above, the thing with kite designs is there are no set rules, what I say below is what I feel at the moment is right, but this may change with new improvements in designs. Do I think strut less will be the way forward for waves? I have been riding the 10m strutless in the waves and its alot of fun, but you have to depower the kite at times 100% which will make a strut-less flutter alot which i am not keen on. So i prefer my 3 strutt.

A 3 strut kite can be just as good in the waves but without the flutter on depower and quicker relaunch if it drops. So at the moment strut less is not the way forward for waves with 7m to 12m kites, it could be with 12m - 14m+ kites to get the extra light winds. What strutless could be good for is light wind wave kiting with alot less weight the kite stays up in 3-6 knots which makes foil boarding and kite skiing with an inflatable alot more possible where a 3 or 5 strut would fall out of the sky.

I think a 14m Strutless in 4 to 15 knots in wave is a better idea than a 7m strut less in 19 to 35 knots for waves

So for me at 75kg on a surfboard a 12m strutless would be an excellent light wind kite for around 10kn.

Does a 12 m strutless kite turn faster and is it more responsive than a 3 strut 12m, what would you compare it to?
Kiting on smooth waves and water would be nice.

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warwickl said..
So for me at 75kg on a surfboard a 12m strutless would be an excellent light wind kite for around 10kn.

Does a 12 m strutless kite turn faster and is it more responsive than a 3 strut 12m, what would you compare it to?
Kiting on smooth waves and water would be nice.

I am finishing off some 2016 light weight 3 strut designs now, and will then make up a 12m strut-less for you to demo :)

The 12m should be powerful like a 13 or 14 and should turn like a 11m, I find with strut less when you depower in strong winds, the kite sits further back in the powered area of the wind window, better drift butt less depower in strong winds. I don't see the strut less taking over the strut market, just yet anyhow

I only have experience with the Clouds. They turn really fast, they have good power for their size, and they drift really well. I don't believe all strutless kites will perform as well as the Clouds do. I like them in all their sizes. Greg designed a good kite. I'm now on kites with 3 struts. Both designs work great.