Looking on input for the wave kite with the best upwind performance.

Live in perth, love going right, but find that a lot of south in the wind means its out of the question... even when its south west could use another few degrees of attack.

Ive been riding reos since 2012 and have a full quiver of them (2012-2014s), but looking to upgrade to new ones this year or next.

Had a couple of waves on a mates Core Section and I didnt love the way it flew but it seemed to track upwind better. Didnt drift very well - my understanding is the better the upwind the worse the drift. Might have to demo one to have a proper go

Any other options I should be exploring?

TIA

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spikeysteve said..
Looking on input for the wave kite with the best upwind performance.

Live in perth, love going right, but find that a lot of south in the wind means its out of the question... even when its south west could use another few degrees of attack.

Ive been riding reos since 2012 and have a full quiver of them (2012-2014s), but looking to upgrade to new ones this year or next.

Had a couple of waves on a mates Core Section and I didnt love the way it flew but it seemed to track upwind better. Didnt drift very well - my understanding is the better the upwind the worse the drift. Might have to demo one to have a proper go

Any other options I should be exploring?

TIA

I ride wainman so can't compare but it seems to sit deeper in the window than mates who ride slingshot. I used have a bit of problem on the right hand attack. I put on a rope slider and it helped a heap with more angle in your hips and better rotation on forehand hacks . Cheaper than a new kite

You need to try Reo V4 They are so good up wind and drift. Were at One Eye last year and kiting with the pro's I found that all the 2017 wave kites Reo , Neo ,Drifter were all very similar .Up wind was more on the board and there techniques

buy a Neo of any year. I have confirmed time and time again when I am kiting an another kiter is on the water. I am on the waves and he can't reach the take off zone. They can't turn like a REO. Also the board makes a lot of difference going upwind. If you buy a vanguard from firewire on your REO you will be able to tell the difference. Also will save you money. YOu can buy a used vanguard for $400. cheers

I have a REO 2012 and is great kite but the NEO is a lot better at everything but turning.

If you want to go right and upwind on the wave then you don't really need to drift or have a wave kite. Maybe look at a mid aspect to it all kite that charges upwind better than the dedicated wave kite.

yourl sacrifice a bit of drift. But if that's not your thing who cares?

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castill0jf said..
buy a Neo of any year. I have confirmed time and time again when I am kiting an another kiter is on the water. I am on the waves and he can't reach the take off zone. They can't turn like a REO. Also the board makes a lot of difference going upwind. If you buy a vanguard from firewire on your REO you will be able to tell the difference. Also will save you money. YOu can buy a used vanguard for $400. cheers

I have a REO 2012 and is great kite but the NEO is a lot better at everything but turning.

Yes Neo is great kite but as stated before It is the board and Technique and I ride with pro Neo rider And it all ways come down to board mainly and some times the kite size and Castillojf who are you kiting against ? To come up with this and compare apple with apples not old models 2012

I used to take out a rebel in the surf and found they were really good for catching rights, but down the line......... Not so much ??

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PRAWNDOG said..
I used to take out a rebel in the surf and found they were really good for catching rights, but down the line......... Not so much ??

Same with an edge
Have rode a neo and reo
upwind the Neo is very good,

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vendeavours said..

castill0jf said..
buy a Neo of any year. I have confirmed time and time again when I am kiting an another kiter is on the water. I am on the waves and he can't reach the take off zone. They can't turn like a REO. Also the board makes a lot of difference going upwind. If you buy a vanguard from firewire on your REO you will be able to tell the difference. Also will save you money. YOu can buy a used vanguard for $400. cheers

I have a REO 2012 and is great kite but the NEO is a lot better at everything but turning.

Yes Neo is great kite but as stated before It is the board and Technique and I ride with pro Neo rider And it all ways come down to board mainly and some times the kite size and Castillojf who are you kiting against ? To come up with this and compare apple with apples not old models 2012

Your are %100 correct. The board and the skills make a big difference going upwind. I will like to add the weigh of the rider

When the wind is above 15 knots any kite + boards would be able to reach the wave. Some kiters will get there quicker. I am writing about my experience when the wind is light. The gear make the difference between walking up wind or reaching the take off zone.

One year ago. A kite surfer was flying a 13 meter drifter and using a secret weapon board. I was on a 12 meter NEO and a custom board. The wind was light. Sometime he had to walk to get back, I was not. Also again a few days ago , different kite surfer but same situation. I was on the waves he didn't reach the wave.

cheers

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PRAWNDOG said..
I used to take out a rebel in the surf and found they were really good for catching rights, but down the line......... Not so much ??

Yes Prawndog I had Rebel back in 2013 and in perfect conditions the Rebel did drift but had to work at it If the line came loose she would drop Loved the Rebel back then But the new wave kites are so good in all aspects now

My Element 5 goes upwind pretty good but I think upwind ability is mainly achieved from board design & technique.

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castill0jf said..

vendeavours said..

castill0jf said..
buy a Neo of any year. I have confirmed time and time again when I am kiting an another kiter is on the water. I am on the waves and he can't reach the take off zone. They can't turn like a REO. Also the board makes a lot of difference going upwind. If you buy a vanguard from firewire on your REO you will be able to tell the difference. Also will save you money. YOu can buy a used vanguard for $400. cheers

I have a REO 2012 and is great kite but the NEO is a lot better at everything but turning.

Yes Neo is great kite but as stated before It is the board and Technique and I ride with pro Neo rider And it all ways come down to board mainly and some times the kite size and Castillojf who are you kiting against ? To come up with this and compare apple with apples not old models 2012

Your are %100 correct. The board and the skills make a big difference going upwind. I will like to add the weigh of the rider

When the wind is above 15 knots any kite + boards would be able to reach the wave. Some kiters will get there quicker. I am writing about my experience when the wind is light. The gear make the difference between walking up wind or reaching the take off zone.

One year ago. A kite surfer was flying a 13 meter drifter and using a secret weapon board. I was on a 12 meter NEO and a custom board. The wind was light. Sometime he had to walk to get back, I was not. Also again a few days ago , different kite surfer but same situation. I was on the waves he didn't reach the wave.

cheers

And were you out on your secret weapon with that floatation of "5'6" Vangard I bet your were trucking up wind I am also 80klg and I am in 5'2 Smook Shredder (similar to Vader,Vangard) Yes I have always been more up wind than older models of the drifter But Reo Stevens and Keahi truck up wind on there 2017 models

Generally, wave kites are not crap at going upwind, good drift does not require poor upwind (but wave kites are crap at upwind compared to high ar race kites for example). Design and balance make a big difference, but probably the biggest difference is the rider and their choice of board and their skill.
I've got several directionals, including a Vanguard set up as a quad. The VG wins the upwind race in lighter winds, and when the wind is up any of the others go upwind well too.

Switch Element 5 for me. I have a high rockered board (Cab Proto) so a good upwind performing kite is nice. The guys on Vanguard/Vader boards flying Elements go upwind like a dream.

the other alternative is to learn to ride switch takes a couple of seasons but then you have the best of all worlds, becomes second nature after a while

Good advice all.

I have the dynabar, and a vanguard, for the reason of getting as much upwind as possible!

My technique is pretty good, I can get almost as much toeside as switch. The problem with riding waves switch is then im on my backhand again! And i have ridden switch frontside a fair bit... but fk it feels weird.

Might have to demo the neo

Going right I usually find as well the deeper the better, keep fading left until you see the section lining up then bam pump right ????

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spikeysteve said..
Good advice all.

I have the dynabar, and a vanguard, for the reason of getting as much upwind as possible!

My technique is pretty good, I can get almost as much toeside as switch. The problem with riding waves switch is then im on my backhand again! And i have ridden switch frontside a fair bit... but fk it feels weird.

Might have to demo the neo

Nice combo but try also V4 .For me also from surfing background I love my backhand and I can go up wind on toe side as good

I to have REO,s and have always been bad at going up wind and have been thinking of moving to NEO,s just to get that bit more up wind = more wave count. As my local beach seems to be split from REO,S and NEO,s taken up most of the kites. Been reading about the Firewire EVO and how good it is .Well I got the 5'3" kite version set up with Quads M fins payed full prices . Well that has fixed the up wind problem and how good is this board for surfing { with Kite} For my 60 + 88kg this is the best surfboard I have owned .Got a set of truster L for downwinders not used yet.

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PRAWNDOG said..
the other alternative is to learn to ride switch takes a couple of seasons but then you have the best of all worlds, becomes second nature after a while

So true! Learning to ride switch back out through the waves, where I would normally have to ride out toeside and get over breaking waves and deal with the sweep, makes a big difference. I'm not real good at it yet but am determined to learn. I use Cabrinha or Dakine non adjustable soft straps so I can stand on them. When I switch I usually ride with my feet in front of both straps, moving my weight forward. I've noticed that when i do this I can ride upwind on the way back out pointing as high as the unstrapped riders, who can shift their weight forward on either tack in a blink/instinctively.

Recently rode at "the spot" in WA with another rider about 5-7kgs heavier, he was on 8M 2017 Neo, me on 8m V4 Reo, I was on a 5'7" 22.5ltr quad fin directional and he was on the new DSD Stallion 5'2" similar or slightly higher volume set up as a quad. He was strapless I was strapped and not switching, no need it was super windy. Nothing in it for upwind, if anything I was getting upwind easier. I use slider harness (RE) he was using fixed hook. Waves were messy but on the bigger sets which were about 2m + faces we were having a lot of fun, wind kept building though and when I saw my mate on the beach and heading to self land, I decided to go one more big one in to the beach and call it quits too.He was using the new click bar, I had my kite about 50% trimmed, it was windy around 30knots and more at times.

@ Gone to the darkside - glad you like the new board and it has helped with your upwind. I'm still waiting for a 5'1"

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Ozone Kites Aus said..
Generally, wave kites are not crap at going upwind, good drift does not require poor upwind (but wave kites are crap at upwind compared to high ar race kites for example).

hehehe.... salesman at work here. Yes good drift does mean poor upwind! Generally speaking the higher he aspect the better the upwind the lower the aspect the better the drift...... So kites that go slightly better upwind will generally slightly higher ar and slightly worse at drifting.

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vendeavours said..

PRAWNDOG said..
I used to take out a rebel in the surf and found they were really good for catching rights, but down the line......... Not so much ??

Yes Prawndog I had Rebel back in 2013 and in perfect conditions the Rebel did drift but had to work at it If the line came loose she would drop Loved the Rebel back then But the new wave kites are so good in all aspects now

I have a 2014 7 rebel. Its a fine upwind but ****house down the line. Its way way way way to heavy! In fact I give it a worse rating than the edge for wave riding. But when you want to boost in a stupid 30-40 knots you are grinning like a school boy!

Vanguard setup Quad, end of story...

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Plummet said..

Ozone Kites Aus said..
Generally, wave kites are not crap at going upwind, good drift does not require poor upwind (but wave kites are crap at upwind compared to high ar race kites for example).

hehehe.... salesman at work here. Yes good drift does mean poor upwind! Generally speaking the higher he aspect the better the upwind the lower the aspect the better the drift...... So kites that go slightly better upwind will generally slightly higher ar and slightly worse at drifting.

My wave kites are fine upwind - just need to let the bar out to bring the kite up in to the wind more.

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Plummet said..

Ozone Kites Aus said..
Generally, wave kites are not crap at going upwind, good drift does not require poor upwind (but wave kites are crap at upwind compared to high ar race kites for example).

hehehe.... salesman at work here. Yes good drift does mean poor upwind! Generally speaking the higher he aspect the better the upwind the lower the aspect the better the drift...... So kites that go slightly better upwind will generally slightly higher ar and slightly worse at drifting.

Plummet, I know you have this theory, but its just not correct. Making generalisations sounds like they should be correct, especially to the person who is making them , sorry good drift does not mean poor upwind, go and watch some experienced wave kiters, they rip back upwind and get tons of waves. If wave kites were really sh1te at upwind no one would bother with wave riding, they would only do downwinders maybe.
I agree that generally a higher AR kite will go upwind better, but they can also be designed to go downwind (drifting) really well too, like the Ozone Edge, which was the kite of choice and won an incredible number of races back in the formula boards days.
Lower AR kites turn better, and thats the no 1 thing you need in waves, because not all spots and days are sideshore downwind drifting dream sessions. Most of us have to deal with a wide variety of conditions and lots of onshore conditions. Onshore is still tons of fun, but you need a very manoeuvrable kite (like Reo/Neo/Wave/section,etc, etc) and a high AR kite will just not cut it.
Overall the differences in well balanced and designed tube kites in drift and upwind/downwind performance are small and I think we are saying almost the same thing.

I watched my mate launch a 12M Reo V4 yesterday, in approx 10-12 knots. He had a taroa foil and surfboard, once he got going and out through the waves, he smoked upwind, went about 1.5klms out to sea, then turned and rode upwind at the most amazing angle and got at least 3 klms upwind in one tack, did none more turn out to sea and then rode in one more tack to broken head, thats 2 tacks to do approx 7klms from where he started out. A kite that is not efficient and that does not go upwind well (because it has excellent drift) could not do that. My mate is still learning to foil and is by no means an expert.

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Ozone Kites Aus said..

Plummet said..

Ozone Kites Aus said..
Generally, wave kites are not crap at going upwind, good drift does not require poor upwind (but wave kites are crap at upwind compared to high ar race kites for example).

hehehe.... salesman at work here. Yes good drift does mean poor upwind! Generally speaking the higher he aspect the better the upwind the lower the aspect the better the drift...... So kites that go slightly better upwind will generally slightly higher ar and slightly worse at drifting.

...... I agree that generally a higher AR kite will go upwind better, but they can also be designed to go downwind (drifting) really well too, like the Ozone Edge, which was the kite of choice and won an incredible number of races back in the formula boards days.

I also agree with Plummet here - a higher AR kite tends to sit closer to the edge of the window, and as such this enhances upwind performance at the expense of down the line drift - there is nothing controversial in this statement right ?

the example of an Edge excelling on the race course is completely nonsense when discussing its suitability as a wave kite. Everyone knows racers don't "drift" their way down the the bottom mark, they ride powered as fast as possible and relatively are riding upwind when you draw it out as a vector diagram. That's why all things being equal, on ozone AR r1v2 foil kite will beat an ozone Edge downwind, for the same reason it'll beat it upwind. But that doesn't make it a better kite for drifting down the line right ?

Same thing for saying a XXX kite is fine for upwind wave riding because someone else can ride it upwind on hydrofoil. I can ride anything upwind on a Hydrofoil better than I could ride it on a surfboard, but that doesn't mean it's a better kite for going right in Perth.

For the OP, it sounds to me like you may actually not want a wave kite per say, perhaps something with a bit for freeride/ freerace DNA would suit your purposes a bit more. try an Edge, or Boost 2 - something with an AR around 5-5.5 and see if that suits you. You gain hangtime too if that's your thing.

been riding pivots for two years and now have a slash ,pants down the best slash i have taken haha ha :) seriously good kite and reliable materials now with that quad tex stuff

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jamesperth said..

I also agree with Plummet here - a higher AR kite tends to sit closer to the edge of the window, and as such this enhances upwind performance at the expense of down the line drift - there is nothing controversial in this statement right ?

the example of an Edge excelling on the race course is completely nonsense when discussing its suitability as a wave kite. Everyone knows racers don't "drift" their way down the the bottom mark, they ride powered as fast as possible and relatively are riding upwind when you draw it out as a vector diagram. That's why all things being equal, on ozone AR r1v2 foil kite will beat an ozone Edge downwind, for the same reason it'll beat it upwind. But that doesn't make it a better kite for drifting down the line right ?

Same thing for saying a XXX kite is fine for upwind wave riding because someone else can ride it upwind on hydrofoil. I can ride anything upwind on a Hydrofoil better than I could ride it on a surfboard, but that doesn't mean it's a better kite for going right in Perth.

For the OP, it sounds to me like you may actually not want a wave kite per say, perhaps something with a bit for freeride/ freerace DNA would suit your purposes a bit more. try an Edge, or Boost 2 - something with an AR around 5-5.5 and see if that suits you. You gain hangtime too if that's your thing.

James, maybe you didn't notice, but I also agreed with Plummet that high AR kites inherently go upwind better than lower AR kites? What I don't agree with, is that lower AR kites are terrible for going upwind, its just not true.
Can an Ozone Edge go upwind better, yes, can it be ridden in waves, yes, does it drift, yes, can it turn well enough to ride waves, no.
Once you begin moving across the water James, its all apparent wind and vector angles as you put it, and as speed increases all courses become downwind to the true wind.
When we ride downwind in wave riding, we mean we are going more in the direction of the true wind and not the apparent wind, but we cannot go directly in the direction of the true wind, because we would run out of apparent wind and the kite will end up in the drink as all wave riders know . Going downwind is a finely balanced aspect of the design of modern kites and due equally to the great skill of modern kiters too.
All kites drift, the difference though is how finely balanced the design is for the intended purpose, high speed = high ar, lower speeds = lower ar (and more suited to waves). Wider arc turning and more powerful turning = high AR, pivotal turning and rapid ability to change direction = Lower AR and wave kites.

The angle of the wind to Perth metro beaches is more of the issue, and riding an Edge to the right in Perth would not work either, well not if you want to turn and ride to the left quickly at some point.

very good information from everyone. i spent 10 days kite surfing a point break and i observed surfers riding NEO were going upwind better than all other kiters. the second groups where the rally slingshot riders. i was able to compare from observation different wave kites. i was riding a ride lfron naish. i am going back soon. i am taking NEO kites and one ssd wave kite to compare

Really James And Plummet there is not point using real know aerodynamic principles
Ozone Kites Aus has this theory based on selling kites that completely overrides any facts,

Of coarse a guy riding a wave, drifting a kite so it has little or no power so they can ride the power of the wave is exactly the same as a racer going fast and very power just because they are both going down wind.

Aspect ratio, trailing edge reflex, foils shape and depth, and positioning of tow points all have an influence on how well a kite can be drifted while riding a wave. Unfortunately you can't design great upwind ability and great drifting into one kite it's just a physical impossibility.My recommendation to Spikeysteve is to try some all rounders like Airush Unions or lithiums Naish pivot or North Dice this may give you compromise you are looking for, plus in my opinion they are much more fun to fly than pure wave kites.

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castill0jf said..
very good information from everyone. i spent 10 days kite surfing a point break and i observed surfers riding NEO were going upwind better than all other kiters. the second groups where the rally slingshot riders. i was able to compare from observation different wave kites. i was riding a ride lfron naish. i am going back soon. i am taking NEO kites and one ssd wave kite to compare

Where is this point break you speak of???
Neos are pretty damn good upwind