Rider: 95kgs, intermediate.
Board: 2008 141 Aboard Z series.
Weather: 25 - 30 knots
Build Quality: 9/10
Satisfaction: 5/10
Disclosure: I have no affiliation and usually fly Naish Cults and Boxers.
My Comments:
This is an 07 kite that I was able to demo for a while. Thnks to Jamie and Tim for the chance to fly it. I posted a review under another topic of the kite in 5-7 knots. It was incredible. I was up and planing, boosting about 5 ft (not huge). When you pull the bar on you speed up, let it off and you slow down. Relaunch was easy even in the light conditions. It was probably the best light wind kite I have flown.
In 25 - 30 knots it was exactly the same ? I rode it for a while and it boosted about the same as my 08 12m Cult in the same conditions. It handled the gusts and I had no need to even think about reaching for the depower. I was able to go upwind almost into the wind. A mate flew it (75kgs, advanced, 129 ? board). He didn't have to pull on any depower either and was as comfortable on it as he was on his 9m atom in the same conditions.
It is a good kite but, and heres the but. We both found it so stable and predictable that we got bored riding it. It may have been that we didn't know how to get the most out of it or we are used to flying overpowered or small kites but it just didn't do it for us.
I can confirm the wind range the guys are claiming. I had no problems and neither did the light weight little badger. This kite is a real speed/course racing machine. If your a newbie it would give you a one kite quiver and you feel comfortable and in control of it. I decided to buy a 2010 9m Torch instead if that give an idea of the kind of kite I want to fly, the badger is getting an Ozone C4.
Hope that gives those interested some info without any crap. The 2010 Hydra is undoubtedly better but I don't know because I haven't demoed it.

12 m kite 5 to 30 knots !!!
Too much drugs mate, wake up.

Have you tried one. Obviously not. Its amazing how people express opinions on this forum that have no F***ing idea. Insinuating I'm a drug user. Wow your a genius and obviously endowed with great wit. Don't expect a talent scout from who wants to be a millionaire to knock on your door. No need to reply.

Sorry mate, sceptic here ..... I also find it very hard to believe that at 95kg you were up and riding on a 12m kite in a true 5-7knots........... that means 5-7knots st kite height yeah ?
I have kited many times at certain locations using an 8m kite where there is little or no wind at sea level ( not even enough to relaunch of the water glassy in fact) but about 10-15m up there is 20+knots.

It is also worth noting that there is a big difference in kiting with a 12m in 30knots and just holding on.......

tell me this ....at 30knots can your so called 75kg rider hold the kite at 45degrees and egde in order to kite correctly, I see plenty of people out on 12m kites in 30knots but they are not really riding properly, kites are usually almost at 12 as they putter back and forth fully depowered and the kite backwinding/flogging on the canopy.

I am about 80 kg and if you are really suggesting i could be out in 5-7 knots i would have to seriously consider buying one.

I've tried the ultra flat designs (similar to this) - the new Bruno patent designed specifically for light wind.

The 12m has an insanely amount of grunt, close to any foil i've tried and probably on a par with this kite if you look at how flat this is. True bottom end would be closer to 10 knots but they did feel a bit like flying a wet rag which is why they never took off. The 15m on the other hand could get me powered in a true 8 knots which I would say is about the lowest you can fly a kite without it wanting to fall out the sky. In my experience, only foils are light enough to stay up in the air in a true sub 8 knot wind, its pure mechanics of the weight of the kite vs wind. The 19m silver arrow for example is acknowledged as the best light-wind kite on the market and that needs 6-8 knots to get going with ultra light material and no weight of a bladder. I would put the weight of the SA as a half to two thirds of the weight of the average 12m LEI.

That said, I was out kiting at Altona on my 13m Rev2 with the wind on the ground at about 8-10knots and I was pulling 3-4m jumps. Unfortunately, my Super magical Slingshot Rev 2 is not as super and magical as I thought, because when other kiters went out on their not-so super and magical 12m cabrinha's, I suddenly realised they also had super magical cabrinha's and super magical other kites (maybe there was a priest down at the beach throwing holy water on them and blessing them)....or the wind was actually 15+ at the height of my kite, we'll let you guess which one it was but I'm happy with the super magical kite option because maybe I'll get the same resale as a flysurfer silver arrow.

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Saffer said...

I've tried the ultra flat designs (similar to this) - the new Bruno patent designed specifically for light wind.

The 12m has an insanely amount of grunt, close to any foil i've tried and probably on a par with this kite if you look at how flat this is. True bottom end would be closer to 10 knots but they did feel a bit like flying a wet rag which is why they never took off. The 15m on the other hand could get me powered in a true 8 knots which I would say is about the lowest you can fly a kite without it wanting to fall out the sky. In my experience, only foils are light enough to stay up in the air in a true sub 8 knot wind, its pure mechanics of the weight of the kite vs wind. The 19m silver arrow for example is acknowledged as the best light-wind kite on the market and that needs 6-8 knots to get going with ultra light material and no weight of a bladder. I would put the weight of the SA as a half to two thirds of the weight of the average 12m LEI.

That said, I was out kiting at Altona on my 13m Rev2 with the wind on the ground at about 8-10knots and I was pulling 3-4m jumps. Unfortunately, my Super magical Slingshot Rev 2 is not as super and magical as I thought, because when other kiters went out on their not-so super and magical 12m cabrinha's, I suddenly realised they also had super magical cabrinha's and super magical other kites (maybe there was a priest down at the beach throwing holy water on them and blessing them)....or the wind was actually 15+ at the height of my kite, we'll let you guess which one it was but I'm happy with the super magical kite option because maybe I'll get the same resale as a flysurfer silver arrow.

Why even bother to reply saffer as its clear your knowledge or should I say lack of on the hydra is starting to show up, have you seen one yet ?
You may need some GLASSES saffer, does this look like a bruno kite, check out the bridle and the lack of bow shape.

here is a pink kite ultra flat bow kite , no bridle on the front of struts and at the rear of struts plus its a BOW KITE DUDE (Bruno patent )

oh my god another one.



coastflyer

SA
Australia

128 Posts

Posted 04/02/2010, 1:47 pm Report Show Profile Message to coastflyer Reply with Quote
Genetrix, here's a link to some info on the funnel. I used to sailboard it many years ago and it is not suitable for a speed run. I reckon Murray mouth in a frontal southerly wind would be ideal.By the way, I tried my new 14m Hydra last nite at seacliff and was planeing and going upwind in 6-8 kts of wind. Unbelievable!

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=56750

Maybe you're missing something but, my point about the ultra flats is simple...they're flat, foil flat...a kite can only get so flat. The flatter the kite, the more bottom end. 5 knot claims are just plain bull. Even a 19m flysurfer silver arrow battles to get going in 5 knots. You can put as many pictures up as you want, but unless this kite has a jet engine on its back, 5 knots is not achievable. He was claiming 5 knots as rideable for a 12.

I'm with you Saffer .... The laws of physics tell me that 5-7 knots on a 12m just isn't going to happen.

How about you hydra guys send over a 12m to Vic ... I will test it out ... It doesn't matter how good the kite is at turning or anything else . If I can get going in 5-7 knots I will do two things
1) I will buy the kite.. full retail
2) I will sing its praises to all and sundry and post an apology on seabreeze for doubting your claims.

I am currently 74/76kg and will test using 4 boards. 08 129 lunacy, 09 128 nobile shinn twinn, 2010 132 nobile nhp/666 and an 07 slingshot sst (6"1' surfboard )

I can send you my licence, passport and any other details you require in order for me to try the kite.

Can't get much fairer than that

I am with you Potter !
Happy to meet you in Torquay for that testing, beers on me

These guys have done their individual reviews, but my personal claim has not changed for the hydra, 12m hydra, 126x40 scalper, around 100 kgs, 13 to 34 knots. i havent used a bigger board with the hydra, and currantly do not fly hydra's. ive seen guys perform in 10 knots on this kite, but prefer to be powered, remember, the kite is not comparable to other designs, and until you've flown it, its hard to imagine it.

i would be happy to send a 12m hydra over there, forget the apologys and all the bull. just send me a pm with your contact number and details, i will pay to get it there, you pay to get it back. seems like a good deal to me.

cheers james.

Happy to participate in some Melbourne testing to see what all the fuss is about and whether the laws of aerodynamics can accommodate some of these claims.

Seriously, if one is coming this way please PM me as I'd like to try.

I said 5-7 knots which was as per the nearest weather station. The water was glass with no ripples on it. So its an estimation. Sure the wind might have been more at kite height but I flew it low in the window. So I gave an honest wind speed according to the best evidence I could get. If you don't like that or think its bull bad luck. What do you do climb up a 20m ladder with your anenometer? Same as the other end the water and weatherstation suggested 30 knots. I'm sure the aeronautical engineers with degrees in meteorology and everything else would know for sure. They comment on everything and most of what they say is bull until they have actually had some experience themselves. I'm betting that if they demo the kite and it does what others are saying they'll still deny it. Perhaps they should give accurate wind readings from their keyboards cause that seems to be where they spend most of their time. Its always the same old posters with the same old cynicism. Make sure you quote me when you flame me.

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metalmongrel said...

I said 5-7 knots which was as per the nearest weather station. The water was glass with no ripples on it. So its an estimation. Sure the wind might have been more at kite height but I flew it low in the window. So I gave an honest wind speed according to the best evidence I could get. If you don't like that or think its bull bad luck. What do you do climb up a 20m ladder with your anenometer? Same as the other end the water and weatherstation suggested 30 knots. I'm sure the aeronautical engineers with degrees in meteorology and everything else would know for sure. They comment on everything and most of what they say is bull until they have actually had some experience themselves. I'm betting that if they demo the kite and it does what others are saying they'll still deny it. Perhaps they should give accurate wind readings from their keyboards cause that seems to be where they spend most of their time. Its always the same old posters with the same old cynicism. Make sure you quote me when you flame me.

Have you actually been out when there is only 5 knots on a wind meter on the beach? You can barely fly a trainer in those conditions and you have to walk backwards and pull on the front lines just to get a kite to lift up in the air. To put it into perspective, in 8 knots, you have to keep an LEI moving just to stop it falling out the sky.

I suggest you take out a windmeter and find out what 5-7 knots really is because using closest weather stations is hardly an indication of real wind speed.

To add my 5c worth to this debate / brawl....

Chris one of the Genetrix team riders visited Magnetic Island in August last year. A few of us were at the beach to check the conditions, all agreed it was too marginal to bother going out, even with 12m's and surfboards.

Wind was around 8-9knots at the beach, and way out the back maybe 400m, beyond the reef crest, there were some little whitecaps, so about 10-11knots. Measured with a windtronic gauge.

Chris arrived & pumped up the Hydra 12m 2009 model, and we all watched with interest. The guy is about 70-75kg I guess and was riding a TT.

The result....with a hell of a lot of sining the kite.....he bogged along & slowly lost ground down wind. Walked back up the beach. Tried again. Same result. Packed up and joined us for a yarn on the beach. Nice bloke.

The kites look very interesting with their flat profile and multi-point bridle, but even the team riders can't turn 8knots into 14knots!

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neoniphon said...

To add my 5c worth to this debate / brawl....

Chris one of the Genetrix team riders visited Magnetic Island in August last year. A few of us were at the beach to check the conditions, all agreed it was too marginal to bother going out, even with 12m's and surfboards.

Wind was around 8-9knots at the beach, and way out the back maybe 400m, beyond the reef crest, there were some little whitecaps, so about 10-11knots. Measured with a windtronic gauge.

Chris arrived & pumped up the Hydra 12m 2009 model, and we all watched with interest. The guy is about 70-75kg I guess and was riding a TT.

The result....with a hell of a lot of sining the kite.....he bogged along & slowly lost ground down wind. Walked back up the beach. Tried again. Same result. Packed up and joined us for a yarn on the beach. Nice bloke.

The kites look very interesting with their flat profile and multi-point bridle, but even the team riders can't turn 8knots into 14knots!

Finally a realistic encounter.

I need at least 8-10kts of wind to get going upwind on the Speed3 19m de using a twin tip at 100kg - how can a 12m LEI plan upwind in 5-7 knots and boost?

Ive seen these kites, and they definitely do very well in light wind but never seen them doing anything magical like plan upwind in 5-7kts.

Kite Type Minimum Wind Speed (in Knots) to Fly Decently
Inflatable 5
Flat Inflatable (Bow Kite) 4-5
Arc 4-5
Closed Cell Foil 4-5
Opened Cell Foil 3 From http://kitesurfingschool.org/lightair.htm

"I know that I can easily hold 50knot winds.....on a Bandit 3 8 metre" Pg 106 issue 42 Kiteworld magazine.

"We had this out on a couple of days......-gusting 30-45knots" referring to a 2009 9m Helix and none of the testers were over 80kgs.

I've included references (to a few there's lots more) so you can write to the testers and publishers of these international magazines and websites to tell them that they are talking bull**** and need to learn how to estimate actual windspeeds.

While I'm at it wind speed is only one factor of wind power:

"The mean speed and power describe different aspects of the wind resource, and both can be useful in different ways. The mean speed is the easiest for most people to relate to. Experts regard the mean wind power, which depends on the air density and the cube of the wind speed, as a more accurate indicator of the wind resource when assessing wind project sites."

Oh no! Actual science. Slow moving dense air can actually have more power then less dense fast moving air! Do the maths and one place with dense air at 20knots could have the same usable power as another with less dense air at 30knots but of course a "wind gauge" can't measure this which is why I don't bother owning one.

@ Scrotus. At no stage in either review I wrote re-light wind did I mention going upwind. I merely said I was planing.

5 knots what a load of bs

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metalmongrel said...


Rider: 95kgs, intermediate.
Board: 2008 141 Aboard Z series.
Weather: 25 - 30 knots
Build Quality: 9/10
Satisfaction: 5/10
Disclosure: I have no affiliation and usually fly Naish Cults and Boxers.
My Comments:
This is an 07 kite that I was able to demo for a while. Thnks to Jamie and Tim for the chance to fly it. I posted a review under another topic of the kite in 5-7 knots. It was incredible. I was up and planing, boosting about 5 ft (not huge).

Yeah but
ya did say ya were boostin and planing so ya must been goin upwind
Bu11sh1t

I'd also like to see any LEI relaunch in 5-7 knots. You'd battle to get a kite to do a reverse launch pulling both back lines in 10 knots, never mind 5-7.

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Saffer said...

I'd also like to see any LEI relaunch in 5-7 knots. You'd battle to get a kite to do a reverse launch pulling both back lines in 10 knots, never mind 5-7.

What your saying is on the mark saffer, however, the hydra will fly in bugger all, thats why its good for land boarding, it's just a unique LEI. i have flown it in some pretty light wind myself, but its real purpose is high wind. The only way i can describe this kite is that its un uncomparable to any others.

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Saffer said...

I'd also like to see any LEI relaunch in 5-7 knots. You'd battle to get a kite to do a reverse launch pulling both back lines in 10 knots, never mind 5-7.

^^^^^
Totally agree....

C'mon Hydra guys .... it seems like there are few here in Vic willing to test out your kites..... if they perform as you claim you may even sell a few.

My original offer stands !!!

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i have flown it in some pretty light wind myself, but its real purpose is high wind. The only way i can describe this kite is that its un uncomparable to any others.

From talking to Chris the team rider, this is what I understood the niche of this kite to be - "beyond crossbow" type windrange and massive hang time.

enough talk. send one to melbourne and lets ride it and see.

harry potter, if you're happy to receive the kite and bring it to the beach for a few crew to ride i'm happy to chip in a few bucks for shipping.

come on people, put your kite where your mouth is!?

Oh well, I better wade into this topic as I now own a 14m hydra! I sold my 14m 2008 Rebel to buy this kite, as I found that I could get going in lighter winds with my new 12m Rebel, so where in the past I would take out the 14m Rebel, I could have more fun with the new 12, especially in waves. So I had some spare cash and bought the new 14m Hydra. My first ride was in very light winds, with the water having just small ripples and large glassy patches. I was only planning to fly it on the beach to get the feel of it. However it was pulling like hell, so I jumped on my 140cm twinnie and launched. To my surprise I took off like a rocket, maybe doing 10-12 kts across the water. On top of that I was trucking upwind and was able to get small floaty jumps without much effort. I cannot verify the wind but two Hobie cats nearby were barely moving with the sailors standing up on the deck. It was bloody hot! (39c) I kited for about an hour and a half, and only came in because I was so hot, even in boardies. My only purpose to buy this kite was for extreme light wind days, but have since had it out in 20 kts and have been scaring myself with the boost height!
Here is a pic of it. It's definiately different to anything that I have ever tried before.

@coastflyer. Not possible, you have too much water time and not enough seabreeze posts and you've flown it so you can't have an opinion. At least you said you were going upwind as apparently you can't plane and boost and just go downwind. Kite looks good. Price is great. Your happy so no on elses' opinion matters. The gear speaks for itself ONCE you've flown it. Kind of wish we had demoed it for longer. But there you go.

Costflyer, you said 12m, but on the pics it is 14 m ( size is visible on the right corner od the kite).
And you can not wind speed readings on that day.
So far claim of 12 m Hydra for 5-40 knots is BST.

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metalmongrel said...

@ Scrotus. At no stage in either review I wrote re-light wind did I mention going upwind. I merely said I was planing.

true u merely said u were planing, but u also said u were boosting 5 feet, and you need to be able to hold a decent edge to boost 5ft. its very very hard to fly a trainer kite in 5 knots, let alone a LEI with 7 struts. If you can get going in 11-12knots on that kite i would still be extremely impressed, i ride a torch 12m in 13 knots min to be holding upwind, and i weigh 66 kg's and the torch is a resonably powerful kite.

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Sasha said...

Costflyer, you said 12m, but on the pics it is 14 m ( size is visible on the right corner od the kite).
And you can not wind speed readings on that day.
So far claim of 12 m Hydra for 5-40 knots is BST.

Nah, he did say 14m Hydra. The 12m was referring to his old rebel.

The good news is yesterday I went out on my 9m kite in 5-7 knots and I was boosting over 5m. I have the 2008 Furia and I think it must be the best light wind kite ever. The kite felt so powered that it felt like it was 30 knots, but the nearest beacon was cerberus and it said only 5-7 knots so it must have been apparent wind that made it feel so windy because the beacon was only 10km's away and it could never be wrong, why would they lie to us?

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Sasha said...

Costflyer, you said 12m, but on the pics it is 14 m ( size is visible on the right corner od the kite).
And you can not wind speed readings on that day.
So far claim of 12 m Hydra for 5-40 knots is BST.

Have another read mate.

Ive owned every model hydra made from 2006 to 2010 and the 2006 hydra 12m had the best low end of them all and Iam sure the bottom end started off at around 9 to 10 knots for me. Current 12m 2010 hydra v4 has less bottom end and more top end then last years v3 which started at around 10 to 12 knots depending on quality of wind . 14m v3 hydra bottom end was 8 to 10 knots for me but I have seen them going in lighter winds with smaller guys on board. I would have to say the Hydra would be a great light wind kite but flysurfer is the best no questions asked for light winds due to its light weight and size. One thing that I have noticed with the hydra is that you can lock it in very early while other kites need turning to raise the wind speed.
Saffer and co, you guys need to take a chill pill . Light winds who cares overall wind range and top end gust control would be more important .