hey steve here;
I was looking to get started flying a kite on the water took one lesson ..and getting what looks like a good deal on a 16m 2005 naish torch ..has anyone tried this kite and could give an opinion on if it is one that would do the trick to get started ....the important thing is not to fast and good depowering ...right?.....what do you guys think ...thx for any help

Rider: Weight82kg ,Level beginner
Style: Freeriding i think?
Weather: 11-20knots

Hi Steve,

Me again! This is either a bait, known as trolling or someone is trying to stitch you up with some pretty much unsellable gear.

The Torch has always been a performance kite from Naish. A 16m will be a big heavy, and by todays standards, very difficult kite to learn on.

The kite you refer to is completely inappropriate for learning, it will be next to impossible to relaunch as a beginner and the lack of depower will be the source of lofting accidents.

By your last two posts, it is obvious you have very little money to spend on gear and let me guess, the guy who gave you the lesson is also the one trying to sell you the kite yeah?

Get a proper lesson or two from a reputable school and forget this gear you are looking at. If you can't afford to buy later model 2nd hand gear or pay for lessons, then forget the sport for this season whilst you save up the coin to invest in something decent for next year.

Look for kites and boards no older than 2007 at the earliest. It will make learning so much easier. Shops like myself have older school gear which we can sell for bugger all, but you'd still be looking at around a grand for suitable beginner kite and board combo.

If you pay anything for it, it will be too much, gear that old has no value at all, it's not even old enough to have nostalgic value.

Speak to your local school/instructor/retailer and ask for some help in finding something to suit your budget. I can also help you if you are serious. Let us know where you live and your body weight and if possible the water condition of the place you want to ride and we can offer some suggestions.

Cheers,

DM

That would be a bad idea in my opinion. you really need advice from your instructor or a shop (believe it or not).

This is a poor choice of kite for an 80 kg rider with one lesson experience. You (and others) will be much safer, learn much faster, have more fun and far less issues and repair costs with something like a 08 09 10 11 kite around 12meters. Asking this question here is a smart move before buying. Because buying that kite is almost definitely not your best option. Thinking it might be suggests strongly you need assistance from a kiting mate or instructor or shop to pick a kite for you. (all beginners need this help from someone with experience)

good luck in the sport. u will love it. these forums will serve you well with all your questions whilst learning.

That kite would be perfect for a beginner as a cheap shade at the beach, Modify the lines to attach sand bags, don't be to concerned if you have to put holes in the kite to attach the lines in a good spot, this is just a design flaw with older kites, modern kites can easily be set up as a shade.

If you need a lesson in how to set up the 16m naish shade send me a P.M and i would be happy to help, if you plan to use it for anything else you will probably be killed or die trying so get some insurance.

DM is on the money with his advice, so i you realy cant afford around a grand to get started the sport is not for you. So save your pennies for something else.

no its not the money and no the guy that i'm buying it from is not the instructor
i just thought that i would be better off with something old but still usefull because i'm new and the crash factor will be high and there for i will probably reck and plus i want somthing i can use in the snow i hear its easier to learn the kite when you factor out being on the water....so i can afford $1000. (plus) just thought it might not make money sense till i get better at it......no?......look forward to all comments

As mentioned above. it would not make money (or any other) sense. It would be a mistake. Don't get it.

Spend the cash on lessons, smash the living sh!t out of there gear until you get the hang of it then buy some gear. A 12-13m kite would be the biggest yo would need and 8-9m as small as you would go a board around 134-138. If you wan't it for snow kiting smaller may be better. You will have a better understanding of what gear you will need after getting more lessons after the lessons you shouldn't have the issue of smashing gear so don't let that be a factor. Don't get pushed in to second hand gear, go home and do your research and work out if it will suit your needs.

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stevehchis said...

no its not the money and no the guy that i'm buying it from is not the instructor
i just thought that i would be better off with something old but still usefull because i'm new and the crash factor will be high and there for i will probably reck and plus i want somthing i can use in the snow i hear its easier to learn the kite when you factor out being on the water....so i can afford $1000. (plus) just thought it might not make money sense till i get better at it......no?......look forward to all comments

Mate i dont know who told you its easier to learn the kite when you factor out the water,its a must for a beginner to fly a lei only in the water till you get well proficient at controlling the kite ,youd have to have a death wish especially with a 16 torch 1 lesson combo,get some more lessons under your belt and get a 2 -3 year old bow (07 or newer) 9-10 sqm and learn the right way.

wow thats scary man, listen to every ones advise and forget about that kite. Also water is your friend when learning.

thanks for the input ..but for one why is it scary with a 16m and one lesson on snow ....if i go out when the wind is low thats why i thought use a 16m (for low winds)...everything moves slower ..right.....

i know this guy (i mean he's younger then myself and all) but how he learned was to kite all winter develop muscle memory because when your on land you don't need to worry about relaunch...take what you learned on snow (controling the kite)and now on water you can now focus on stuff that you can only practice on water (relaunch) and other stuff i don't know about...sound right.....what am i missing?

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stevehchis said...

thanks for the input ..but for one why is it scary with a 16m and one lesson on snow ....if i go out when the wind is low thats why i thought use a 16m (for low winds)...everything moves slower ..right.....

i know this guy (i mean he's younger then myself and all) but how he learned was to kite all winter develop muscle memory because when your on land you don't need to worry about relaunch...take what you learned on snow (controling the kite)and now on water you can now focus on stuff that you can only practice on water (relaunch) and other stuff i don't know about...sound right.....what am i missing?

A 16m kite with a lerner on land is crazy and in light winds youll stall out and your reaction will be to pull in on the bar and then it will turn to s**t and youll get caned,or youll tip it out and it'll relaunch halfway down and youll do a nice superman impersonation before burying your head up to your neck in the snow,seems like you dont like the advice your getting so why ask in the first place if your not going to take it !!!!!!!!!!!

What are you missing?

All the good advice people are trying to give you, advice that could save your life

It sounds like you need to just forget about kiteboarding, get on another forum and head up to the snow and do some snowkiteing lessons if that's what your into.

But now it just sounds like you are TROLLING as it's not the start of snow kite season, it's the start of summer and kiteboarding so unless you live on a f@$k off big mountain, or aren't really from AUS then take it somewhere else.

what it sounds like is i'm talking to baby's...if you can't question a responds with out you people thinking that your ignoring all advice ...what wrong with inquiring about somthing i thought thats what this board is all about ...unless your telling me that i shoud just here what you have to say and live by that with out question or understanding...just because you say so ...thats sounds like a dictatorship...is that what this is

It's not a dictatorship, but a self regulated sport that all involved with is very protective of, and all we need is for a DH like you to take a 16m naish torch to your local beach and seriously hurt someone else from the public. I wouldn't give a **** if you hurt yourself or even killed your self, but if it affects beach closure or the freedom we have in our sport at the moment you are going to cop some abuse.

The problem is the kite is just way to big for your body weight, It doesn't have as much safety as modern kites and has a very narrow windrange. Your knowledge and skill level of this sport is SFA so you should be listening to all the advice given to you, the way you question good advice that many people have given you over and over again will not put you in a good light as you appear to know a lot more than people that actually do the sport or at least think you do.

If your motivation for getting it is just because it is slow turning then there are other kites out there that can be tuned to turn slowly that are going to be a better choice, that you will actually be able to use for kiteboarding and as a snow kite. You would be better of asking for info on these kites and forget about the cheapskate crap gear you are looking at.

Get more lessons before you even start to consider looking for gear, or just sit back and save your pennies. We can't help people on this forum if there not willing to help themselfs.

Is this wat you have in mind, let me tell you it isn't any where near 16m looks very gentle though.

go for it dude

don't listen to these pussies

16mtr 2005 torch is the absolute ducks guts for learning

and you're right, learning on land is heaps easier than in the water

infact learning on an asphalt or concrete basket ball court is the go

when it does come time to hit the water, make sure you go as close to the surfclub flags as possible
its a free country not a dictatorship, so you should protect and excersize your rights by being indignant and obnoxious and kiting any damn place you feel like, besides the surfcubs prefer it when you do because they know you're just learning and want to keep an eye on you and make sure you're okay.

go the 16mtr

Here is some more good advice


You wont need lessons this way, can use any gear no matter it it's to big ,safe as just tie yourself to something, at leas you wont get dragged.

This guys got it sorted a nice 3.5m kite practice on land where it's nice and safe.

I can see you out there now.

Looks like this might be the gear you are after, kiteboarding gear that can be used on land, and should be great for snow.

I think what i'm getting at is make sure you take a video camera, since kite boarding has become a safe sport we don't see as many funny accidents. From poorly misguided people.

Good luck. you will need it

nothing wrong with getting conformation to most of your seemingly good advice
could do without the sarcasm..i don't know what you guys are used to but all i asked for was an opinion on how it might go (starting off with a torch) you tolled me what you thought and thats great ...no one said anything about going head long into it thats why i'm here to find out whats best and whats not but i can't just take advise without question ....i see that it can be dangerous

so there is know way to control the power of any old kite (older then 2007)
no way to keep it some what safe in any way

i have more to ask if you guy can take it ....and give constuctive answers
no sarcasm you might confuse a DH like me

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waxman said...

Looks like this might be the gear you are after, kiteboarding gear that can be used on land, and should be great for snow.

It's a whole new genre, this will get all those urban kids hooked. I can see it now "kite street" finals at the Xgames your not legit though unless you wear your pants just above your knee caps

Hey mate, obviously you are pretty green and just throwing a few questions out there and got an absolute pasting for it. You get that sometimes. (I know you don't understand but you were sorta asking for it) But any way I hope this helps.

Older kites don't have the design features that post 07/08 kites do. Pre 07 only have a small percentage of the depower that newer ones do. they haven't got things like a swept leading edge. 90% plus depower at the bar and almost fail safe safety system if used by someone with training.

The torch is a c kite and is aimed at giving heaps of lift and turning really fast as most c kites are. They are manufactured for kiters who want allot of performance to be able to pull off moves like the pros.

But ask anyone on this forum and they will tell you that for the average Joe or if you are semmi pro. you dont need a C kite to be able to pull off big moves.

But what will progress your riding is something which is forgiving and has really simple safety features and good relaunch abilities.

Go with the advice from Darren from AKS, he's a bloke who has been helping blokes like you since it all began and he has seen the progression of equipment and the way it helps make the sport safer and more enjoyable for all of us who do it and hopefully yourself if you decide it is for you.

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stevehchis said...

nothing wrong with getting conformation to most of your seemingly good advice
could do without the sarcasm..i don't know what you guys are used to but all i asked for was an opinion on how it might go (starting off with a torch) you tolled me what you thought and thats great ...no one said anything about going head long into it thats why i'm here to find out whats best and whats not but i can't just take advise without question ....i see that it can be dangerous

so there is know way to control the power of any old kite (older then 2007)
no way to keep it some what safe in any way

i have more to ask if you guy can take it ....and give constuctive answers
no sarcasm you might confuse a DH like me

mate maybe you got some sarcasm because you asked a question and then disregarded the unanimous answers.

If you dont want to hear what people think then why ask a question in the first place?

Dude.... listen to them all. (except the Doctor)

You need a 12m kite built later than 2007 if you can get one in good nick.

You need MORE LESSONS by the sound of it.

You need flying skills before you try the board or the snow. Rocks and trees hurt in both locations.

Get a decent instructor, GET LESSONS, and trust their advice.

Asking the same questions on here will get you pasted every day. We are not all morons.

ok how about a 2007 Liquid Force Havoc i have the option to get the 14m or 10m
my wind speed average is 11-20 82kg is my weight is that better ...if so i'm trying to get a good deal on it and if its agood kite that i can keep for a time i might get them both ...if needed to increase my play

would this do for a beginner ....and if anyone can compare this to the 08-2010 model with a focus on a beginner's interest ...thx

At 82 kgs you are going to have trouble learning to kite in under 15kts. I'm sure you are a expert on your local conditions, but maybe you should share your location so someone with some real knowledge of the conditions can help out and give a true idea of what wind you will be kiting in.

Get some more lessons before you buy gear, lots of good advice on this thread already, try taking some of it.

Mate if you go and book some lessons and get to the stage of getting up on a board you'll have a fair idea of the size of kite your gonna need,why run before you can walk ? why the urgency to buy now? obviously your anxious to get into the sport,but if you rush in and buy gear too early you may regret it later.

well i ask this because the LF havoc (i hear) gives you the equivalents of a kite that is larger so a 12m LF would be equal to a 14m of some other brand(bow kite)
i have not bought any kite yet nor will i till i have enough info...can you confirm this about the LF havoc....anyone