Select to expand quotedjdojo said..Eaglelad said..
Have they fixed the top end on the 2014 Catalyst? I own a 2013 8m and it seems to be boring, boring, perfect then a surging fluttering mess in 25-30+..
re: cat Vs reo I haven't flown 2014 of either but isn't the fundamental difference that the Cat generates power in its turns & looping where as a Reo pivot turns and lets you hold your line? Since you ride mutant in waves & love to boost surely a Reo in a larger size is the wrong kite..
Sounds like you may have your rear lines too long - not enough power in the low end and luffing at the top end. The 2013 8m wanted the rear lines about 5cm shorter than the factory setting IMO. Give it a try.
I had heaps of fun on it in as little as 17 knots - punchy little kite. For me (78kg) it topped out at about 30, but given it's excellent bottom end, the fun (and indeed exciting range) was very adequate. 20-28 knots - the absolutely sweet zone for me - really dynamic and made me confident and inspired to push my limits.
100% the problem, also if you fly it hesitantly ie bar in bar out all the time , personally on the shortest or a tad more as suggested this kite goes from a school kite to a advanced riders kite, its easier to put a muti knot setting on the main bridle rather than sliding your floats up and down as conditions change
Cheers guys, I already fly it on the shortest knot with another knot above as Cauncy suggested in the reviews when it came out.
I just find i have to nurse my edge before takeoff, and my preferred aggressive pop kills the power. but clearly it's my issue :)
Select to expand quoteEaglelad said..
Cheers guys, I already fly it on the shortest knot with another knot above as Cauncy suggested in the reviews when it came out.
I just find i have to nurse my edge before takeoff, and my preferred aggressive pop kills the power. but clearly it's my issue :)
wouldnt say that as i find the power too easy to kill, maybe what makes its top end so good, generally you find complaints from the heavier riders ie above 80kgs , what weight are you
Eaglelad, if you're ever up Melbourne way for a kite let me know and I'll be happy to have a look at how you're tuning and riding it. Easiest to work out in the flesh probably but feel free to post/PM any questions. The 2013 8m is a sweet kite so keep experimenting.
Cauncy you typed the following:
100% the problem, also if you fly it hesitantly ie bar in bar out all the time , personally on the shortest or a tad more as suggested this kite goes from a school kite to a advanced riders kite, its easier to put a muti knot setting on the main bridle rather than sliding your floats up and down as conditions change.
Did you mean Multiple knots ( muti knot setting) on the main bridle vs using the 3 knots under the floats ? And, if we connect to the knot closest to the bar is that the shortest line setting ? I've had some say the line furthest from the bar is the shortest and also the knot closest is shortest...somewhat confused.
Select to expand quoteKitegrandad said..
Cauncy you typed the following:
100% the problem, also if you fly it hesitantly ie bar in bar out all the time , personally on the shortest or a tad more as suggested this kite goes from a school kite to a advanced riders kite, its easier to put a muti knot setting on the main bridle rather than sliding your floats up and down as conditions change.
Did you mean Multiple knots ( muti knot setting) on the main bridle vs using the 3 knots under the floats ? And, if we connect to the knot closest to the bar is that the shortest line setting ? I've had some say the line furthest from the bar is the shortest and also the knot closest is shortest...somewhat confused.
Are you serious? So maybe this is Eaglelads problem too? Slide the floats up and work out for yourself which knot will give you the shortest back lines. I don't say this to be rude, but so you can/will learn about your own gear. The shortest setting will be the one with the greatest length of leader dangling free which, from my point of view, means the knot furthest from the bar if you hold the lines/leaders straight out. Bringing this furthest knot into the leader on the bar shortens the lines. Make sense?
Also, don't be afraid to let the above-bar depower right out so that the load is taken by the red ball on the cleat rather than the line being in the teeth of the cleat. This will maximise your on-the-fly adjustment range and remove the need for any knots on the kite bridle/leaders. Rob Whittall rides like this in the Ozone vids, so I take that as a license to do it and be within the design/safety parameters of the cleat.
Having said all this, I regularly check all knots, grub screws, stitching etc. Get to know your gear - it pays off.
If you're still unsure, post your question with a pic and I'll do my best to clarify.
Select to expand quoteKitegrandad said..
Cauncy you typed the following:
100% the problem, also if you fly it hesitantly ie bar in bar out all the time , personally on the shortest or a tad more as suggested this kite goes from a school kite to a advanced riders kite, its easier to put a muti knot setting on the main bridle rather than sliding your floats up and down as conditions change.
Did you mean Multiple knots ( muti knot setting) on the main bridle vs using the 3 knots under the floats ? And, if we connect to the knot closest to the bar is that the shortest line setting ? I've had some say the line furthest from the bar is the shortest and also the knot closest is shortest...somewhat confused.
Kite grandad how are ya bud.
Listen the actual larks head is on the bars leader line (attached to the bar) ....Hence the knots are actually on your back lines that go to the kite.
So to make your back lines the shortest you can (most powered) get the larks head which is essentially attached to your bar ends and place it over the closest knot to the kite...or the furtherest UP the back lines towards the kite.
Can you see how that will shorten your back lines now. (Can I be honest with you, I had to think this through as well and was a little confused to start with...lol, so ya not alone).
Very simple system and effective, as opposed to those plastic insert thingies you have to hinge off the north bars (I have an ozone and north bar).
Or you could do what cauncy does and actually put some knots on the leader lines at the kite end as it always used to be with all kites. I'm thinking about doing that myself as I'm finding I prefer to ride the zephyr fully powered (back lines shortened) but even fully depowered I still get too much pull for me when unhooking, so the middle lines would be better for this.
Freeride shortest, unhooking middle...so adjustments at the kite end would be easier....might get some more directions off cauncy for that.
Also I agree with djodjo, power that bitch up, use your edge to get that kite forward in the window to spill air, then use the power to crank. Even at 75kg I've been on the zephyr on the shortest knot in 17 to 20, with no depower, kites don't like to be depowered in my opinion. Maybe a tad here and there or if you are wave riding and really wanna kill the thing for park and ride.
Hope that helps.
Great info....thanks ! I'm going to add knots to the kite end ala Cauncy : easier to adjust IMHO.
^^^^ No need. Once you have the lines sorted for a given kite, there is plenty of trim on the above bar cleat. If you have it close to stalling with the trim right out and the bar right in, then you'll have all the top end you need by pulling in the trim. Taking it past that by lengthening the rear lines (or shortening the front) means you are well past the optimal wind range for the kite for your weight. You will get the symptoms that Eaglelad described.
just to keep it clear i get some longer pigtails, set a knot at the same as my factory set, i then add a few up and down of that approx 30mm apart, this gives me more options to power and depower as conditions warrant, plus its quicker than sliding up the floats, ive used this settings for years , basically it opens and closes the face of the kite giving you more and less power,
Well, well, well.
Flew a 10m 2014 reo and 10m Dice back to back this afternoon.
Wind was a solid seabrease 25 knots gusting to 28.
So both kites at the top end of their range.
And the winner is.....
...
Dice.
by a country mile.
It turned better, drifted better, felt smoother, lighter bar pressure, jumped better.
There was nothing the reo did better than the dice. Wait..... it did a funky pivot turn loop down the line that was quite nice.
On a side note I don't like a plastic pullies on the Dice. They scream out wear and snap at the most inappropriate time to me. I would aim to replace those with a more robust pulley.
I guess the Reo was really outside its target wind range for wave riding. perhaps it would perform better closer to 20 knots. It certainly did not handle the strong wind as well as the Dice.
So Dice is still top of my list. I wonder how the cat would go against it. perhaps 10 cat/10 dice would be a more fair comparison.
^^^ You said it - you were on the wrong kite for what you want to do. (Gee, the BMX was slow around the velodrome! It must be a dud!)
Why guys ride REOs on twin tips is beyond me. They're designed to be used in a range that offers enough power to get a surfboard out through the lineup and doing its thing on the wave. If you use them for that the bar pressure is minimal and the kite performs as designed.
If, on the other hand, you want to ride a twinny massively powered up, of course there'll be more bar pressure as the kite will be well above its intended range. 25-28knots most surfboard riders would be on a 6 or a 7, not a 10.
The Catalyst is what you want for twinny riding with surf-capability. And based on last year's 8 and 10 (my 2014 9 and 7 still on their way), 25-28 was towards the top of the sweet zone for me on my 8m riding a twinnny at 78kg. This year again, they're significantly more powerful per m2 than the REOs.
Righto djodjo great theory.
Dice works on twin tips and surfboards.
Maybe your theory only works with reos who knows.
Have you actually ridden the reo? Or the dice?
I have the new cat and reo in my shed, will be riding them all back to back, 5 guys on the water , a trigger in the air as well. So there will be all three kites up plus two dice kites and we will be swapping between all kites on both twin tips and surfboards in the waves then a session or two on the flat.
I will try and relay what everyone feels.
Select to expand quotedjdojo said..
^^^ You said it - you were on the wrong kite for what you want to do. (Gee, the BMX was slow around the velodrome! It must be a dud!)
So i'm in a surf location with waves waves waves and more waves. The only flat water is in between the waves. I have a mutant with 3 fin thruster set up which I ride in waves with.
Riding a Reo in these conditions is like riding a bmx in a velodrome?
Actually it is a valid option to try. All my riding with in waves. So a wave specific kite makes sence. If it can jump well and fly well then it should be the kite of choice.
Regarding your statement that "25-28knots most surfboard riders would be on a 6 or a 7, not a 10" Why then was there a good 6-10 surfboard riders on 10's today? I'll tell you. the seabrease kicked in at 20 knots. we rigged our 10's and it build to 25+..... So.... the morel of the story is the kite should still perform at the top end of its range aswell.
Ridden REOs, not dice.
Look at the profile of the REO compared to the Catalyst when they're in the air - different wing sections for different purposes. So yes, the Cat has a broader target application than the REO, and possibly the dice does too ...
The way I see it, the REO is designed so that the power can be killed quicker than any other Ozone kite by letting the bar out. It has a flatter wing section that can be made to luff more easily, produces less grunt for a given angle of attack, while still having surface area to aid drift when it is deep in the window (acting more like a balloon than as a wing).
The Cat has a fuller foil shape - and will produce more power over a wider range of angles. It is still light enough (only 3 struts) and low enough aspect to have adequate drift for most wave-riders, while surrendering some of the REO's finer surfboard-oriented features and gaining usability for higher load applications - twinnies, mutants, boosting etc.
Well I won't argue with your wing profile explanation, that actually makes sense.
I also think a plummett has pointed out in a balanced fashion he may have been outside the REO 10s sweet spot.
In the light of your theory above maybe the REO is best out of the cat and dice with a dedicated surfboard rider,
But in practice is this the case? Well I know it is for the cat I had the 8m and flew the REO a number of times. I'd say the difference between these two kites have not changed (in theory) one year later.
My question is above is based around a REO, dice comparison.
My money's on the REO by the way on a dedicated surfboard. We will see.
Ultimately it comes down to, even on a SB, what style of wave riding you are after I suppose and also do you like the power delivery of the kite.
djdojo you need to get out there and ride a Dice so you can compare.
I actually found the dice better down the line in the waves. The reo was punchy, back stally, pivot turny and the power came on too fast. It wss not enjoyable at all. Granted I was at the upper limit of the both kites. But I want my kites to work well at the upper limit. The power came on far smoother with the Dice. Even trimmed it worked well. I would trim., ride a wave in complete control then let the trim off and boost on the way out.
At the end it came down to grin factor. My face was grinning far more on the Dice.
To be honest I'm shocked. I'm a die hard Ozone fan. Been on Ozone since 05 before they even made lei's. I would much prefer to buy ozone. The design guys a 300km up the road and I would like to support a company that supports NZ. I really enjoy my other ozones. I'm bummed that I am having to look outside the ozone range to get a kite that suits my needs.
Looking forward to Eppos test of the 2014 cat.
Select to expand quotePlummet said..
djdojo you need to get out there and ride a Dice so you can compare.
I actually found the dice better down the line in the waves. The reo was punchy, back stally, pivot turny and the power came on too fast. It wss not enjoyable at all. Granted I was at the upper limit of the both kites. But I want my kites to work well at the upper limit. The power came on far smoother with the Dice. Even trimmed it worked well. I would trim., ride a wave in complete control then let the trim off and boost on the way out.
At the end it came down to grin factor. My face was grinning far more on the Dice.
To be honest I'm shocked. I'm a die hard Ozone fan. Been on Ozone since 05 before they even made lei's. I would much prefer to buy ozone. The design guys a 300km up the road and I would like to support a company that supports NZ. I really enjoy my other ozones. I'm bummed that I am having to look outside the ozone range to get a kite that suits my needs.
Looking forward to Eppos test of the 2014 cat.
Me too. I was bummed, and still am!
Still rather be talking about these two marvellous brands of kites to be quite honest.
I'm looking forward to the tests as well, but I do so dearly hope that the conversation stays balanced, civil, impartial and above all anybody reading it takes it all with a grain of salt and realise that all views are principally centred around an individual perception of how the kite performs in reference to their board selection, rider style, water and wind conditions, their history, ability and their intended progression.
This means demo and ride yourself, open yourself up to lots of different kites even if you run the risk of finding something you prefer and make your own decision.
Don't make it an us against them conversation, the light and the dark side, polar opposites etc...
Looking forward to the tests, and I hope I then don't get a barrage of abuse for what I find which is ultimately not the truth, just what I think. Make your own minds up!!
Just to add...I noticed a red thumb against plummett then. For someone who has been a huge ozone advocate for a number of years now and been very vocal about it, it took a lot of guts to say what he said. He should be commended. If ya got something to say, say it! Also why red thumb him, its only his opinion, its not the truth. How about giving your truth, grow some balls, stand up like a man and say what ya gotta say.
Or red thumb me because it can't hurt. Hey laurie have you got the number of red thumbs people get, surely I'd be at the top of that list!!!
We compared a 2014 10m REO demo and my 2013 Edge 10m using a Monk FE, Mako King and Axxis SB. Our conditions were mainly flat or choppy water with winds - one day 18 to 21K and 2nd day 15 to 18K. Everyone who tried the REO liked it's friendly feel, ability to jump well and quickness to loop but we consistently preferred the Edge using a Twin Tip. Our conclusion, MAYBE the 2014 catalyst would be a better comparison for our riding needs. The Dice sounds like a hybrid similar in concept to the Rebel - dabbles in all conditions. We are waiting for the new EVO as well, before making the plunge into new kites but it is a shame to look outside of Ozone for smaller kites.
I agree about talking gear and sharing information on this forum. But, a personal demo on the kite ( preferably several session ) before buying makes the most sense.
Good points Kitegrandad.
The rebel from my experience is principally a hooked in freeride machine, which is functional in the waves if flown a certain way. It's aspect produces a large wind range and glide through the air.
The Dice is more your 'soft' freestyle hooked and unhooked machine, which is undeniably intuitive in the waves offering both fly and follow and park and ride depending on your sheeting position, board and wave type. it does boost, but it needs far more attention a good C technique and will not offer the same glide as the rebel.
They are very different actually.
The new evo will sit in between the dice and the rebel in all aspects mentioned above I predict.
Reo and edge comparison...yeh opposite extremes.
Try a Cat, the dice and the new evo then you will know I suppose what works for you. Flat versus waves and the majority of time spent one each as well as if you plan to unhook etc will be important things to consider. The cat and the dice for all of this...
I'm out on the new cat today, fingers crossed!
Well I have had the New Cat out now twice, with dices in the air, three other riders swapping to and fro.
One day at the lower end 16/17 on light wind board setups to see the basic characteristics and then today 20 to 25 and maybe a tad higher in the gusts. Same set of riders, this time lit on our normal boards, which we happen to swap around today as well.
I can concur from my personal observations what others have said the new cat is an improvement from last year as it should I suppose going into its second generation.
1. Smoother power delivery especially in gusts (was southerly to SSW today so some wind shadows afforded causing some slight turbulence in places...comes through in lines in those winds on the estuary).
2. Turns much better depowered and quicker overall. Was very decent in the small swell breaks we had ocean side in the lighter wind day for flying follow and drifted nicely down the line, but it has always been a stable platform.
3. Jumping is good and with the right technique some decent air in the stronger winds today, always feedback on the bar, nice easy float with solid landings.
4. Loops keep a more consistent speed (they always did but maybe a tad more). Still flutters through the loops, but its an open C it will do that. It won't accelerate through the loop like a more closed C so the loops are nice and forgiving.
5. New bar is very functional and still has the ozone simplicity. I really like the ozone bar setup. Interesting they have left the bottom of the quick release and manual swivel open....thought about it, this makes sure you can get any sand out they may lodge in there. Smart really. The rest is still the same.
6. Unhooking is really stable and forgiving with only some slight depowering needed sometimes beforehand.
So in summary an improvement on the first gen, Rob knows his stuff...but if you are happy with your 2013 I wouldn't be running out there to sell ....of course the new one has some improvements and if you like new gear why not.
A very forgiving platform, easy to fly, great for a beginner to a rider that wants to push the envelope a bit without getting spanked to hard. Exactly it's design profile. Can't go wrong with this kite.
Hope that helps.
Ps we did get out on the new REO on SBs and TTs, and honestly there weren't any waves to really get a correct feel for this kite so I'm not going to say anything except it does fly 'differently' to the last incarnations (will work more forward in the window for sure...does allow the boost potential (landings more so, it always boosted). I cans see why it takes crew a little while to dial in from last years but most I've spoken to on emails etc, say that once they do they are loving them. Also as Djodjo said even in our somewhat naive conditions it suited the SB far more than the TT that is plain to see now.
Just realised this a comparison with the dice. I was just answering plummetts question on the new cat.
Don't know if you can say one is better than another, it all depends on how you want to ride. The new dice if you look closely and past the swept wing tips really does resemble a Vegas. It really does have that closed C arc...relatively speaking to the cat which is more open. This affords far more powered loops. We have found the dice will go big, all four so us would argue bigger than the cat but it requires a more Detailed C technique. The cat is easier to use in this regard. The dice has Lighter bar pressure that takes more technique to make your mark given the same board, rider and conditions. This also means once you are in the air and you've gone big, you gotta be on your C kite game. The cat is a no brainer through the air. The dice is asking to be looped.
On the, making your mark point, The upstroke of the dice is very powerful and can be used to your advantage, the cat lacks this upstroke power but does compensate by flying slightly more forward in the window. Dice absorbs gusts better it seems.
So while it is fine for beginners it really is a kite that advanced riders can stick their teeth into.
One thing is for sure it is a killer wave kite, that we are all certain about. I'd almost go as far to say that's not an opinion, that's fact.
Already noticed a red thumb...dear me, some individuals are really spoiling this platform.
Bye.
