I'm struggling to break 35kph on my speed runs and I'm pretty sure its technique related.

Ignoring equipment for the moment - I'm flying North rebels and my mate can hit 40kph on a North Neo so I'm happy I should be able to get faster with better technique.

I try to ride a fairly classic balanced stance, hips forward - plenty of front foot pressure to load the edge right along the board and avoid sinking the tail. Is there a better stance that would help me go faster?

I also tend to set the trim for my kite so I can get my sweet spot in a comfortable sheeting range (important after watching another friend continuously stall his kite - cuz it feels nice and grunty doesn't it and he likes that powerful feeling at the bar). Is there a best sheeting point for speed? I tend to ease the bar out to get it close to the edge and then gradually sheet in a bit to try and increase the power.

Cheers

well... if you can't get past 35 KM/H on a twin tip you're probably underpowered or not trying hard enough

The common mistake is to think that you'll go at your fastest by just edging harder.

If you're well powered up on a twin tip you should be able to easily reach speeds in excess of 40 KM/H by edging your board on a normal upwind tack.

Flat water helps a lot. after all, all speed records are done in butter flat channels with super strong (40 knots + winds).

Once you reach speeds above 40 KM/H on a normal upwind tack, start going DOWNWIND a bit and sheet the bar in, and lower the kite a little bit as well, it's then that you'll pick up the most speed. It takes a bit of balls of course. In 35 knots on a 10m kite and flat water is where I got my highest speeds, 69 km/h. You can see on the gps tracking below the straighter lines being upwind tacks and in those I could only get 50 km/h speeds, but when going downwind, it suddenly accelerates, assuming you're pulling the bar in and that you're overpowered.

I'd say it's mostly about edge control and power. Too much edge and you slow down, too little and you slow down as well.





some inspiration from the world's fastest:



You can see his upwind tack between 0:21 and 0:23, then from there going slightly downwind and picking up speed!

Thanks. Possibly underpowered. 21-25knots on a 10m type of power. I could have sworn I was going faster but the GPS says otherwise (Xensr so no live speeds - can only see the speeds back on the PC). I'm totally in control rather than hanging on though.

Haven't gone as far as bearing off downwind. Wanted to get everything else dialled in whilst on a normal tack. Interesting to see his stance. He's hanging towards the back of the board more than I do. He's flying the kite a bit higher than I expected too. Looks like about 45 degrees. So lower than a regular kiter (55-60) but looked higher than some of the foil racing guys. Interesting.

So would you say there isn't too much risk of oversheeting and choking the kite when your going? I was concerned about slowing the kite by sheeting too much.

In 20-22kns with a 2015 10.5 LF envy - 142cm mid rocker TT - I'm 88kg - flat water I am crossing the 30kns (54.3kph). And get similar speeds on the 8 in 25-28kns.

Hit the fastest speed with a line that is slightly down wind, keep the board flat - it is about creating apparent wind while minimising drag. Edging too hard to stay upwind slows you down, bare off and let it run - but too far down wind and the kite looses apparent wind. Your line has to be just right. I found once I figured the line to run and the stance, I went from 35/36kph (20kns in sailor talk) into the 50s very quickly (2 or 3 sessions). Late last summer I got to 58.4 in 22-24kns, goal this summer is to get well into the 60s which will need more wind.... and balls

At my local, there is a sheltered, smooth water line at a particular tide that gives about 35/40mins before the tide fills in and it chops up - last summer I found myself timing my session to catch this tide point. Its a buzz, It's going to hurt when I come off.

That sounds like the problem. I'm looking for extra speed but I'm riding my usual tacks at the moment rather than conciously bearing off.

Good idea about the timing of the tide. I tried a nearby flat water spot but found that even with offshore wind it had a ripple that bucked the board too much when flattened off.

My normal beach does get a flat-ish bit between sections of waves after the chop breaks on an incoming tide. It should line up fairly well with the prevailing wind direction.

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So would you say there isn't too much risk of oversheeting and choking the kite when your going? I was concerned about slowing the kite by sheeting too much.

Not really, if you're overpowered you shouldn't be choking the kite by sheeting in and going slightly downwind at the same time.Of course you need to make sure your lines are well tuned. It's only if you went massively downwind that you would choke the kite.

my definition of overpowered means you basically need to be riding full speed with the bar sheeted completely or almost completely out.

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weebitbreezy said.. I'm struggling to break 35kph on my speed runs and I'm pretty sure its technique related.

From my experience there seems to be 2 different techniques to work on, dealing with outright speed and dealing with high apparent wind riding.

Outright speed: As your speed gets faster and faster you will need more and more edge to stay in control, but the trick is to only provide the minimum amount of edge required to maintain control. If you are feeling like your edge is rock solid, let the board run a bit more to increase speed. Eventually you'll be back into the same stance as before but with more speed and at the limit of your control. Rinse/repeat with your technique getting better and better at maintaining control at the limits.

High apparent wind: Rather than measuring your outright speed, express your speed as a proportion of the wind speed. First goal is to go as fast as the wind and should be achievable on normal gear. Getting faster is more to do with kite control and eeking out more and more apparent wind. Even with the limited set of kites I've tried, they all seem to have different techniques to gain more apparent wind. One likes sining, one likes long pulses, one parked deep, etc. Maybe find someone with the same kite?

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My normal beach does get a flat-ish bit between sections of waves after the chop breaks on an incoming tide. It should line up fairly well with the prevailing wind direction.

Personally I'd find another place to practice. You need LOTS of super flat water to really nail the technique. Find flat water of at least 100m (preferably 200m+) running directly across wind and ride as overpowered as possible. This gives you time to ramp up the speed over and over again as well as work on board control at the limits rather than being disrupted by chop or turns. Once you're used to riding above the speed of the wind you will find that your general riding speed will increase and will be able to dial up the speed significantly when you want to (even in waves).

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I try to ride a fairly classic balanced stance, hips forward - plenty of front foot pressure to load the edge right along the board and avoid sinking the tail. Is there a better stance that would help me go faster?

My mindset is "leaning into the run". I lean forward (even bending at the waist with upper body leaning forward like tube riding) and flatten the board slightly trying to let the board run as smoothly as possible. I try to run across wind until I'm barely holding an edge, then let the power of the kite gradually take me into a broad reach.

My best is only around 60k/h and apparent ratio of 1.3 on stock gear, so I'm sure there's other insights from the racing guys.

Speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed is good.

I was hitting 85 kph on the kite buggy in the weekend. Lots of fun. I've gps'd the landboard at 65kph and similar on the water with a car following me. To be fair i dont get much chance for water speed runs.

The faster you go. The more the wind window shifts back. The more you have to arc downwind to go faster. The fastest speeds are obtained when you follow that downwind arc of the wind window shifting back. There will come a point when you can go no faster, dependant on the wind speed and how far forward the kite points. That point is typically when the kite is at the edge if the window and at 90 degrees to you.

That is why high aspect kites go faster. They can point further forward in the wind window.

As far as on the water is concerned. find some flat. In the perfect world flat that arcs downwind in the direction of your speed run. Pull the bar in feel the power and arc down wind following the power and increased speed of the board.

Flatter skinnier longer boards go fastest. But they will be a bitch if you hit chop.

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Plummet said..

That is one awesome pictographic. It shows both the wind window rotation plus the increase in wind force compressing the bands. Running in the green would generate the same pull, but the direction of pull means less forward thrust, so keeping the forward momentum would mean dipping the kite even deeper into yellow. No wonders 1:1 is so hard to crack.

Do you have a source for that pic? I'm assuming Ian Young is this guy?
www.ianyoung.net.au/home/kitesurfing/about-ian-young

Great graphic. Also explains why going faster doesn't help you go upwind.

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VRBones said...

Plummet said..

That is one awesome pictographic. It shows both the wind window rotation plus the increase in wind force compressing the bands. Running in the green would generate the same pull, but the direction of pull means less forward thrust, so keeping the forward momentum would mean dipping the kite even deeper into yellow. No wonders 1:1 is so hard to crack.

Do you have a source for that pic? I'm assuming Ian Young is this guy?
www.ianyoung.net.au/home/kitesurfing/about-ian-young

thats it

Inspired by Ian's pic, I thought I'd dig into how much the rotation of the wind window affects the ability to generate forward thrust. Here's a graph of how different starting angles are impacted:




A couple of notes / observations:
- The forces displayed are proportional to the amount of force the kite is generating at the designated angle from directly downwind at no forward speed. Eg: When flying the speed of the wind (1:1) with the kite at 70 degrees will give approximately 60% of the power available when stationary and the kite at 70 degrees.
- Note that since the measurements are proportional to stationary power, if your kite is barely pulling at 80 degrees on the beach, it will also be barely pulling flying at 80 degrees even if you are trying to go past 1:1.
- Note that 85 degrees (and even 80 degrees) would be unlikely for standard LEI's. I'd say mine would be lucky to make 80 degrees at the extreme edge of the flyable window, so to generate enough power to pull me they would likely be back at ~70 degrees.
- What the graphs DO show is that a kite able to fly further forward in the wind window and generate exactly the same pull as another flying deeper (due to size,shape,etc) will be able to maintain that power much further as the speed increases.

- The graph assumes that the increase in apparent windspeed correlates directly into an increase in force. This is unlikely to be completely accurate as it would need to consider the frictional force of the wind on the canopy compared to the lift being generated. Even considering NO increase on force due to an increase in airspeed, the graphs show the same relationship of further forward flying kites giving the ability to maintain forward thrust for longer.
- The graph only takes into account the force generated from the wind on the kite. This will be counteracted by the frictional forces of the board on the water requiring more power for faster speed. Since these dragging forces will remain constant between kites, they would have no impact on the ability for the kite to generate more or less power (just limit the top speed of each design).

I couldn't find anything that would indicate a greater force by flying downwind (in fact flying into the wind would increase the power generated by the kite), so it's likely that there are angular forces due to the board heading, that play a bigger role in predicting the optimal bearing as speed increases.

Google spreadsheet for anyone wanting the doublecheck the maths: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B2-wh9UKRKdI2RB3vHxNG85dh14INVHOYgyXKAJ0c1s/edit?usp=sharing

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VRBones said..

- The graph assumes that the increase in apparent windspeed correlates directly into an increase in force. This is unlikely to be completely accurate as it would need to consider the frictional force of the wind on the canopy compared to the lift being generated. Even considering NO increase on force due to an increase in airspeed, the graphs show the same relationship of further forward flying kites giving the ability to maintain forward thrust for longer.

The force will increase as your apparent windspeed increases.

Kenetic energy is 1/2 mass x Velocity Squared.

Mass = Air 1.2kg/m2 approx
Velocity = apparent wind speed

The faster you and your kite goes the more power the kite can harness. But as the wind Shrinks further back as we go faster we need to further an further downwind to harness that additional power. Then there comes the point of the kite/board/windspeed limitations that you cannot go any faster.

Personally guarantee you'll be flying

Thanks for the tips. Finally got some wind (been directly offshore for the last 2 weeks now) and a chance to play. Was out during my lunch break today and the time pressures to get back to work encouraged a more committed mindset. Consequently I have added another 7km/h to my top speed.

It was still pretty choppy out there so I can see plenty more to come with a flatter bit of water. Looking at my track, the fastest speeds were going beam reach. I reckon bearing off a fraction more would see a good increase too.

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cbulota said..

So would you say there isn't too much risk of oversheeting and choking the kite when your going? I was concerned about slowing the kite by sheeting too much.

Not really, if you're overpowered you shouldn't be choking the kite by sheeting in and going slightly downwind at the same time.Of course you need to make sure your lines are well tuned. It's only if you went massively downwind that you would choke the kite.

my definition of overpowered means you basically need to be riding full speed with the bar sheeted completely or almost completely out.

Don't listen to this crap. Wait for a puff to come, sheet on and bareoff down wind near 45deg. Make sure you are well powered and in smooth water. I can consistently get over 36kts at my local on freeride gear. I measure my speed with a GT31 same as all the speed kiters and sailors.

Just like a womens arse, the water should be smooth, no dimples.

Cbulota if you think 40km/h is fast you're not even close to being in the race. This season I'm going for 40kts on a twintip and a Catalist.

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kiteman69 said..

cbulota said..

So would you say there isn't too much risk of oversheeting and choking the kite when your going? I was concerned about slowing the kite by sheeting too much.

Not really, if you're overpowered you shouldn't be choking the kite by sheeting in and going slightly downwind at the same time.Of course you need to make sure your lines are well tuned. It's only if you went massively downwind that you would choke the kite.

my definition of overpowered means you basically need to be riding full speed with the bar sheeted completely or almost completely out.

Don't listen to this crap. Wait for a puff to come, sheet on and bareoff down wind near 45deg. Make sure you are well powered and in smooth water. I can consistently get over 36kts at my local on freeride gear. I measure my speed with a GT31 same as all the speed kiters and sailors.

Just like a womens arse, the water should be smooth, no dimples.

Cbulota if you think 40km/h is fast you're not even close to being in the race. This season I'm going for 40kts on a twintip and a Catalist.

to be fair, he did share a trace riding 70 km/h in his first post - thats about 38knots. I think he only suggested 40 km/h as a reasonable upwind speed before baring away to pick up more speed.

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weebitbreezy said..

kiteman69 said..

cbulota said..

So would you say there isn't too much risk of oversheeting and choking the kite when your going? I was concerned about slowing the kite by sheeting too much.

Not really, if you're overpowered you shouldn't be choking the kite by sheeting in and going slightly downwind at the same time.Of course you need to make sure your lines are well tuned. It's only if you went massively downwind that you would choke the kite.

my definition of overpowered means you basically need to be riding full speed with the bar sheeted completely or almost completely out.

Don't listen to this crap. Wait for a puff to come, sheet on and bareoff down wind near 45deg. Make sure you are well powered and in smooth water. I can consistently get over 36kts at my local on freeride gear. I measure my speed with a GT31 same as all the speed kiters and sailors.

Just like a womens arse, the water should be smooth, no dimples.

Cbulota if you think 40km/h is fast you're not even close to being in the race. This season I'm going for 40kts on a twintip and a Catalist.

to be fair, he did share a trace riding 70 km/h in his first post - thats about 38knots. I think he only suggested 40 km/h as a reasonable upwind speed before baring away to pick up more speed.

Sorry I didn't make my speeds clear earlier. The speeds that you are talking about would only be 1sec peaks. When I talk about a speed usually its 100m, 250m, and 500m speeds. To get an accurate speed you need to run the file that your GPS creates through a program like Realspeed, GPS Results, or KA72. I have had my gps tell me that I had a peak speed of 65kts, but when run through the software it turned out to be a spike when the unit jumped satellites.

Fair dos. I'm using a Xensr for pretty much everything at the moment. I haven't delved into the proprietary format files to see if they can be manipulated to fit one or other existing programs.

I have to say I like the tilt/roll sensors on the playback. I can see what difference board edging is making as I can easily see where I speed up, how much edge I have and when I slow whether I have added more or less edge. In other words I can see what level of edge is optimum and what worked to get extra speed.