Hello all,

Me and my girlfriend have recently invested in our first kit after a successful holiday in Puerto Rico (we live in NYC).
We enjoyed the community we met there and most of all we got hooked to the world of pleasure that kiting (or at least trying to) offers.
On our way back home we bought a used 2015 10m Airush Varial X as we thought it would be a good size to share in our quiver, 1 airush progression bar, 2 harnesses and a 2014 Axis Vanguard 139cm

She is 155lbs (70kg) and I am 190lbs (86kg). We are planning on practicing near by NYC area (NJ shore/Long Island) where, according to the different wind report I've been reading for the past couple of weeks, the wind tends to be below 15 knots

We went out only once with a shy 12/13 knots and as a beginner had issue getting on the board with the 10m.

The guys we met told me I should get a bigger kite while the 10 will probably be big enough for her to learn.

I would like to know your thoughts about buying a second kite.
Should we wait and play around more with the 10m or it might slow down my progression on low wind?
Should I go up for a 12, 14 or 17? (right now I am thinking more 14m)

Also I am thinking kite size as I feel I am losing speed quickly after getting up but is the board length an issue too (139cm) ?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Progression and light wind rarely go well together.

It's one of the most common misconceptions from beginners, thinking light wind is better and easier to learn in.

I tried learning in low winds myself with a 16m in Quebec in similar conditions to where you live...not much happened after a year of struggle.

I finally got going when I did a trip to cape Hatteras where the wind was stronger but also much more consistent. I couldn't believe how easy it was in the right conditions

Generally speaking if you can't relaunch your kite easily from deep water, the wind is too light for learning and you will end up spending more time getting out of trouble than learning to kite...which generally corresponds to below 15 knots. Most kite spots also have windsurfers and you generally don't see any of those guys below 15 knots so that's another way to tell.

Light wind kites aren't magic wands either. They are slow and heavy especially when wet, making them less efficient.

That being said it might be your only option if all you have is below 15 knot days...just don't expect it to be easy. The board you have is big which will help.

If I was you I would try to setup a trip or two to cape Hatteras and gain more experience before winter comes.

Once you get more skills you will be much more efficient in light winds. Also one day you will want to be kiting together with your partner so you'll need a second kite and a second board...I'd recommend you get a 17m and get a smaller board for her.

I wish you great courage and perseverance to progress around where you live, you're gonna need it

Christian

Allo Christian,

Decidemment les Quebecois sont bien aimable au niveau du cerf-volant! La personne m'ayant le plus aider a San Juan est aussi quebecois (et vit en Floride). Ma copine et moi somme francais.

Anyway that other Quebecer also advised us to go to North Carolina and we plan on going a full week in October.

You are dead on for the feeling on learning on low wind. I spent so much time body dragging upwind to get back on the beach carrying the board (was an offshore wind on top of it) compare to the 10 secs riding the board before losing all speed...

So you would jump straight to 17m? Wouldn't it be too powerful on 15-20 knots days for a beginner?

Right now I can get a new Airush 2016 DNA 14m at USD750 and USD1,000 with the bar and saw a used Cabrinha 2014 Contra 17m for around the same price (with an overdrive Large bar).

Thank you

Yannick

It depends on the average winds at your local. Buying a big 14-17m might be a silly idea if you have a lot of windy days that you have to sit out because you don't have an 8m......

Talk to the locals and find out what the common sizes are that local kiter's use. Then build your kite quiver around that.

Typically kite quivers will be 8, 10,12 with 17m added for desperation kiting sub 15 knots and 6m added for storm kiting +30 knots

Because you are both close in weight you want small 2m gaps between kites to be on the water at the same time.

So... Without knowing your local winds my guess to build the quiver would be this,

10m, then at 12m then add 8m then at 17m then add 6m.

Thanks Plummet.

The averages around here are very low (the best spot nearby is www.windfinder.com/windstatistics/sandy_hook?fspot=sandy_hook_fishing_beach).
There is some volatility which can give you days in the low 20's at best but that's not that common. Under 15knots will be the most likely condition for me.

One of the local guy I know has 7m, 10m and 14m and he's around my weight. Of course I was told the best way is to try first before buying but it's good to understand how it should work in theory.

And I don't want to get frustrated with a too small kite struggling learning just because I didn't buy the right size for me.

From your reply I sense that I underestimate the impact of 2m difference between kites. I assume that the change of feeling is more obvious with good wind conditions...
I only tried a 8m, 10m and 11m in 12-15knots range.

If a 12m brings a good chunk of extra power, it makes a lot of sense to build the quiver as you describe for us two.

Can we say that for a given skill/weight a 10m wind range is 15 to 18 knots and a 12m would be 12-15 knots? (making up the numbers to have an idea)
Or the two ranges are closer?

I am 77 kg but have been up to 84kg here are my wind ranges for my lei kites. This will give you some idea. PS Don't consider the Well powered wind ranges until experienced,

Size
13m. underpowered 12-15 knots. powered 16-21 well powered 22-26
10m underpowered 15-18 powered 19-25 well powered 25-30
8m underpowered 20-25 powered 25-30 well powered 30-35
6m underpowered 25-30 powered 30-38 well powered 39-45

Essentially unless hydrofoiling sub 16 needs a BIG kite or you will be underpowered. Even then the big kite is usually slow and bat**** boring.

So.... my guess is when you are on a 12m your girl freind could be on a 10m. When it is 10m weather for you its probably 8m weather for her.

Also consider that 16-30 knots is the gravy for kite surfing. Missing out on a 25+ knots session because your kite is too big is far worse than missing out on a ****ty underpowered sub 16 knot session.

Also don't believe the averages on windguru, windfinder, Its most likely windier than those predictions that average out wind during day and night and don't take into account seabreezes or local landformations that can affect the wind. If i looked at my local average wind it looks pretty ****ty. But the reality is i get many many 20+ knot days and many 30+ knot days. Talk to the locals and build your quiver around what they suggest. The fact that your buddy has 14m, 10m, 7m suggests its windier than what you suggest.

Also try kite forum . com There will be guys on there from your local that will be able to advice typical kite sizes.

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So you would jump straight to 17m? Wouldn't it be too powerful on 15-20 knots days for a beginner?

You don't buy a 17m kite for 15-20 knots, you buy a 17m kite for 15 knot days and less. At your weight you will start to be overpowered on a 17m around 18 knots and completely maxed out at 20 knots (no fun).

Understanding the wind and weather at your local spot is the key. You might get strong wind days but I bet those are frontal/stormy conditions, which you should avoid as a beginner anyways.

It's funny how here in Australia kite spots are practically empty when the winds are around 15 knots or less. In North East US/Canada kite spots are packed with winds as light as 12 knots, because that's mostly all you have and is considered a great day!

Anyone at your weight wanting to take advantage of 10-15 knots winds will need a very large kite for riding a twin tip, there is no way around it unless you learn to hydrofoil :)

Generally speaking you add or remove 1m of kite size for every 10kg in normal wind conditions i.e. 18-25 knots. In light winds, make that 2-3m kite size increments for every 10 kg. So in 15 knots and less you'll need a 17m while your girlfriend would need something like a 14m. For someone to enjoy 15 knots or less on a 10m kite/ with a twin tip you would need to weigh 50 kg.

For normal wind conditions, add a 7 or 8m kite along with your 10m and you guys will be sweet to kite together up to 25 knots.

It takes a long time to learn to be efficient in low winds, however if you keep persevering over the years the payoff is huge, you will need much smaller kites and smaller board in any wind conditions in the future. You will also be able to enjoy lower winds when others struggle or skip it altogether.

Christian

Thank you both very much for your replies .

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Plummet said..
I am 77 kg but have been up to 84kg here are my wind ranges for my lei kites. This will give you some idea. PS Don't consider the Well powered wind ranges until experienced,

Size
13m. underpowered 12-15 knots. powered 16-21 well powered 22-26
10m underpowered 15-18 powered 19-25 well powered 25-30
8m underpowered 20-25 powered 25-30 well powered 30-35
6m underpowered 25-30 powered 30-38 well powered 39-45

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cbulota said..

Generally speaking you add or remove 1m of kite size for every 10kg in normal wind conditions i.e. 18-25 knots. In light winds, make that 2-3m kite size increments for every 10 kg. So in 15 knots and less you'll need a 17m while your girlfriend would need something like a 14m.

So theoretically and knowing I am 10 kg heavier than Plummet (and not taking into account skill level difference):

Size
13m +2m = 15m. underpowered 12-15 knots. powered 16-21 well powered 22-26
10m +1m = 11m - underpowered 15-18 powered 19-25 well powered 25-30

Hence 17m to be confortable below 15 knots doesn't seem so crazy now...

And for my girlfriend 14 m also sounds appropriate.

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Plummet said..

Also consider that 16-30 knots is the gravy for kite surfing. Missing out on a 25+ knots session because your kite is too big is far worse than missing out on a ****ty underpowered sub 16 knot session.

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cbulota said..

It's funny how here in Australia kite spots are practically empty when the winds are around 15 knots or less. In North East US/Canada kite spots are packed with winds as light as 12 knots, because that's mostly all you have and is considered a great day!

I definitely think both of your comments are true and unfortunately I can only enjoy what's available around me on a routine basis.
Since I check the wind reports only 2 days above 15 knots in the last 2 weeks and both were working days... and as Christian said on weekend at 12 knots there was 2 windsurfers and 6 kite boarders in the water. I guess relocating might come into question if you start to live and breathe the sport.

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Plummet said..

Also don't believe the averages on windguru, windfinder, Its most likely windier than those predictions that average out wind during day and night and don't take into account seabreezes or local landformations that can affect the wind. If i looked at my local average wind it looks pretty ****ty. But the reality is i get many many 20+ knot days and many 30+ knot days. Talk to the locals and build your quiver around what they suggest. The fact that your buddy has 14m, 10m, 7m suggests its windier than what you suggest.

Also try kite forum . com There will be guys on there from your local that will be able to advice typical kite sizes.

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cbulota said..

Understanding the wind and weather at your local spot is the key. You might get strong wind days but I bet those are frontal/stormy conditions, which you should avoid as a beginner anyways.

I need to spend more time out there to observe what's really going on but from last session I am afraid I will quickly consume my patience with the 10 m (playing around with the trainer kite as well will get old quickly).
Also as it is a bit of commute for me I cannot go there to realize I should have stayed home.

Let me know if my conclusion is missing your point but now I'd conclude that I need a bigger kite already in order to make the most of it:

Winds |--------------- |Girlfriend (70kg) -------- | Me (86kg) |--------------- | Comments
<15 knots |-----------| 14 m |--------------- | 17 m|--------------------- | Most likely local condition
15- 20 knots |------- | 10m |---------------- | 14 m |--------------- | Good days on local condition
>20 knots |------------ | 8m |---------------------- | 10m |----------------- | Holiday times!

With the bold sizes that we share.

We already have:
- Airush Varial X 10 m with 45-52 cm progression bar

This would rule out the 12m (the cheaper one obviously).

- Airush new DNA 2015 12 m USD 499 kite only USD 699 kite + bar
- Airush new DNA 2016 14 m USD 750 kite only USD 999 kite + bar
- Cabrinha used Contra 2014 17 m USD 690 kite only USD 1,015 kite + bar (57-65 cm).

Probably easier to pitch the 14 m to my girlfriend too (cheaper and good for her too) but I would end up with something a little too small for average day conditions.

Did I get that right?

Thanks,

17,14,10,8 would be a good quiver.

Keep in mind that different styles of kites and different brands have different power levels. So a 13m in one style and brand may have more power than a 14m in another.

I've been in a similar situation, trying to kit out the whole family and girlfriend with kites and boards and I've found that having different size boards helps expand the range of your kites too.
I've recently bought a second hand light wind board that is huge and it has helped my daughter(14 yrs) and me no end. My son(12 yrs) has been using my daughters board in light wind. I also got a North nugget directional board that I use in light wind with a 9m kite (my second biggest) whilst my daughter uses our 12m.
Riding a directional (with straps at first) really helped me in light wind.

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Plummet said..
17,14,10,8 would be a good quiver.

Keep in mind that different styles of kites and different brands have different power levels. So a 13m in one style and brand may have more power than a 14m in another.

Yep, I would fully agree as well, a quiver like this would cover a wide range of conditions while giving you the best chances to progress in light winds.

When you get more advanced you will be able to use smaller sizes and smaller boards as well in the exact same conditions, but this will take some time. Similarly when you get more advanced as Plummet says, you will be able to hold more power and kite in strong winds (i.e. 10m kite in 30 knots), however that's not everyone's favorite thing and is obviously more dangerous. I don't see many girls enjoying 30-35+ knots days overpowered either.

My cousin (70kg) and his wife (50kg) who kite in Quebec share only 3 sizes between both of them: 7m, 10m and 12m. they usually start kiting at around 12 knots. They use Airush Varials X's which are similar grunt to the DNA's.

Personally I used 16 and 17m kites for many years which helped me progress in light wind. My biggest kite is now a 12m and under 15 knots I'm not even interested in trying to twin tip anyhow (too much effort going upwind). With the 12m, long lines and a hydrofoil, I can enjoy super low wind kiting (below 12 knots) while going fast and well powered, but it took about 6 years with many hundreds of light wind sessions to get there.

Christian

Thanks to the 3 of you.

I haven't thought enough about board too to cover a wider range of winds. Thanks!

I will probably play more with the 10m and the twin tips 139cm and once I have a better understanding of the wind at each season of the year I will be more capable of knowing how to spend money wisely.

In the meantime I'll be going to cape Hatteras for a week in October and monitor used gear to grab a good second kite to have 2 full kit in order to ride at the same time. Keeping in mind what you guys have taught me.

Also I will try my friends LW 15m kite to have a feel (North Juice). He also have a directional board that I can try.

Thank you again for all the tips. The kiteboarding community is not only helpful on the sand but in front of their computers too!

Here's a tip I use to determine if the wind is good enough for YOUR kite(s). An anenometer is great but if the wind is bordering on the low end (12knots or so) and you have a 12m kite and weigh in the high 70s or more, then you're really on the cusp of the "should I bother or not" syndrome!

Take out your kite and fly static on the beach and dive the kite hard. If it pulls you enough to almost throw you over, then there could be enough wind to give it ago. However, if you can sine the kite back and forth and not feel much resistance, there is no way you'll get going on water, unless you're a foil, race board or something big that has little resistance in the water to choke the kite.

A day at the beach for me is a good day no matter what you do.

Another good way to tell if there's enough wind that an instructor told me, is to fly the kite at the zenith (on the beach before going out) and take a couple of steps forward under the kite. If there's enough wind for the kite to "recover" and not fall out of the sky you should be ok to go out.
When you walk out and lay back in the water to put your board on, you tend to drift downwind under the kite and so if there's not enough wind to stand this you're not going to get far and you'll have a frustrating time repeatedly trying to water-launch the kite. light wind and a wet kite can make relaunch a nightmare!
I have had good sessions in light wind however with someone, taking it in turns to help relaunch the kite. It can be quite reassuring not to do a superman if you stuff it learning to waterstart.
You should have a blast with your buddies directional. Have fun!

I think 14m to 10m is quite a big gap, especially if both of you are going to kite at the same time. Whereas there is not that much difference going from 14m to 17m. I think you might be better off with 17-13-10 or possibly even 17-12-10. (17-12-9 would be good but you've already got the 10)

I'm 80 kg and I have 17-11-9-7

I find that by the time I'm considering depowering the 17m with the trim strap I can be more than adequately powered on my 11m. This depends a bit on the type of kites that you have. My 17m has a good top end and my 11m a good bottom end. I'm not suggesting that you buy an 11m but just to illustrate that 13m or 12m could work for you.

Some 15m can also have quite a good bottom end too. Adding another 1 or 2 m2 to an already big kite doesn't get you that much more bang for your buck. It just gets you another 1kn to the bottom end of your wind range. The difference between 10m and 8m is much more than 17m to 15m.

I am looking at used kite around me and can get my hand on a 14m switchblade 2014 or a 12m Wainman Boss 2010. Both around USD600.
I can try the boss as the guy and I can meet on a spot but I am not sure for the switch blade.

I see your point about having a too big of a gap between 10 and 14 and as you said the 10 is already here and size can feel quite different depending on the brand/model.

But I don't know if 10 vs 12 is a big enough gap for the short term... (read while learning)
Adding a 12 and 17 would cost more and require more skills that the one I have currently to learn with <15knots (having to use the 17m).
Am I correct?

I was quite happy finding the switchblade as I read that this is one of the best sellers and 14m fell into the logic of having a bigger kiter for LW without going for 15+
www.thekiteboarder.com/2014/02/tkb-review-2014-cabrinha-switchblade-siren/
kitesurfingmag.com/2014-cabrinha-switchblade-review/

Would this be a good buy?

Thanks,

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SaGa31 said..
I am looking at used kite around me and can get my hand on a 14m switchblade 2014 or a 12m Wainman Boss 2010. Both around USD600.
I can try the boss as the guy and I can meet on a spot but I am not sure for the switch blade.

I see your point about having a too big of a gap between 10 and 14 and as you said the 10 is already here and size can feel quite different depending on the brand/model.

But I don't know if 10 vs 12 is a big enough gap for the short term... (read while learning)
Adding a 12 and 17 would cost more and require more skills that the one I have currently to learn with <15knots (having to use the 17m).
Am I correct?

I was quite happy finding the switchblade as I read that this is one of the best sellers and 14m fell into the logic of having a bigger kiter for LW without going for 15+
www.thekiteboarder.com/2014/02/tkb-review-2014-cabrinha-switchblade-siren/
kitesurfingmag.com/2014-cabrinha-switchblade-review/

Would this be a good buy?

Thanks,

Anyone asking USD 600 for a 2010 kite is dreaming!
The Switchblade wouldn't be too bad
If you're just going for 2 kites, a 14m would be the way to go. You can always add more kites later.

A 17m in 12-15 kn doesn't really require more skills. In less wind than that the relaunch (after a crash) will be significantly harder especially on a big kite. Big kites in sub-20kn wind are slow, stable and docile which can be a good thing as a beginner. They won't loop or dive into the water the instant you accidentally pull on the bar while concentrating on the board.

Cabrinha have a reputation for making their kites bigger than the stated size. This may make them appear to have better low end power than their competitors. Not sure which models and years (if any) that would apply to. But it could mean that a "14m" actually has an area of 15m2. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks holgs,

I went to see the kite and the bar was in a very bad visual condition (foam ripped off and plastic broken), lines seemed ok-ish, kite looked fine with a professional repair.
I didn't take it as I don't like the recoil overdrive system and wasn't happy with the bar condition.

I am looking at 2 Airush DNA close out kite 12m 2015 at USD700 and 14m 2016 USD1,000 both bar included.

Also summarized the quiver options below with and without under/over powered:

Thinking going with the 12m right now...