Thanks, Bones.
The problem is, I don't WANT to head upwind straight away, but my body does it anyway. My brain knows I should be heading downwind, my initial board position is good (or so I have been told) and I generally have no problems standing up.
Something that was pointed out to me though is, that I look too much over my shoulder straight away. I tried looking more forwards at the end of my last session, and that seemed to make a difference. It's true, the body follows the head. Can't wait to try that again next time I go out, hopefully things will click tehn.

I don't think I've ever attempted to learn anything that is so frustrating and so rewarding at the same time.

Kung fu kick at the kite on water start

Had a really fun session at Safety bay this afternoon for 2.5 hours and only got out of the water cos i was knackered. Still manage to fluff a few water starts, especially going to the right. Whenever i go right and stand up i feel like my body is too close to the bar and im pointing too downwind.

Was able to go upwind to my right and edge well as its by far my most dominant side. Coming back to the left i can hold my ground and i actually finished back at my starting point which was bit of an achievement. Didnt have to do walk of shame! Sometimes i can feel my body naturally moving into the poo stance when trying to edge upwind. I think when i try to gain more speed and loop my kite back up to 12 oclock my shoulders get pulled forward and to prevent myself from falling over my bum sticks out. Have been out kitesurfing 3 days in a row now and i can definitely see the time in the water is everything as far as progression goes.

I tried doing the hand-drag thing to put my body into a better upwind stance but it just resulted in me edging too hard and coming to a complete stop. Also tried a jump today and whilst i got some good height the speed at which i was lifted out of the water was too quick and i crashed pretty hard. Took a while to recover my board so that was my only attempt for the day.

Cant believe there is only 3-4 months left of the season already!

Select to expand quote

Germs said...
Having said that, I'm still battling waterstarts, I can get up in both directions, but I have a tendency to go too much upwind too quickly and kill all my speed. And the worst about it is, I know what I'm doing wrong, but I'm not sure how to do it differently. Persistence is key I guess. Unlearning bad habits is definitely proving harder that learning something from scratch.

Select to expand quote

Germs said...
Thanks, Bones.
The problem is, I don't WANT to head upwind straight away, but my body does it anyway. My brain knows I should be heading downwind, my initial board position is good (or so I have been told) and I generally have no problems standing up.
Something that was pointed out to me though is, that I look too much over my shoulder straight away. I tried looking more forwards at the end of my last session, and that seemed to make a difference. It's true, the body follows the head. Can't wait to try that again next time I go out, hopefully things will click tehn.

I don't think I've ever attempted to learn anything that is so frustrating and so rewarding at the same time.

If you want to go downwind just flatten the board. It is not possible to go upwind with a flat board. You will find that you might sink into water with a twintip. In that case put more weight on your backfoot to keep the front of the board from digging in the water. If you head too much downwind you will lose line tension and will either have to sine the kite agressively or turn back upwind to restore line tension.

Regarding going upwind and loosing speed. You probabably just lean back and edge the board that way. That gets you upwind in overpowered conditions but it's not a true upwind stance as it doesn't allow for any control and is often followed by loss of speed.

What you have to do is to keep most of your weight on your backfoot and use your frontfoot to lift the tip slightly out of the water while turning that side of the hip slightly BACKWARDS (this will cause your front knee to bend and lift the tip out of the water even higher). The more pressure you put on the backfoot now will determine the upwind angle.

Small boards are completly unforgiving in this matter. The slightest loss of front foot discipline will cause you to loose upwind speed.

This picture shows it quite well.

the girl in the photo above i noticed has the bar sheeted right in. Does she have to let the bar out at some stage to stop the kite from stalling? Im still trying to get my head around apparent wind, sheeting the bar in and out, etc. Her hips are almost pointing towards her front foot as well rather than up at the sky which is interesting. Ive been concentrating on keeping my hips forward to avoid poo stance but never considered turning them towards my front foot.

Lots of trial and error ahead.

stance can be practiced at home in front of mirror, adopt same stance as on board, arms up in air parallel like kite lines, look left then bring arms down to 10.30, do NOT move feet ever, bend back knee and get comfortable balancing on back leg only, front straight but relaxed, chest facing kite, hips will turn natually, relax and pretend ride bobbing up and down on back leg, back to 12 neutral slowly and repeat exactly same to right 1.30, both stances shld feel natural and identical, do exactly same on water

Select to expand quote

gdmclean said...
the girl in the photo above i noticed has the bar sheeted right in. Does she have to let the bar out at some stage to stop the kite from stalling? Im still trying to get my head around apparent wind, sheeting the bar in and out, etc. Her hips are almost pointing towards her front foot as well rather than up at the sky which is interesting. Ive been concentrating on keeping my hips forward to avoid poo stance but never considered turning them towards my front foot.

Lots of trial and error ahead.

These pictures are usually taken in the carribean where they dont have any gusts and just gentle breezes. As such they quite often dont really need to depower the kite (and hence can have the bar trimmed close to the body). xD
The real reason why she's sheeting in is probably cause she's leaning back and touching the water for the camera and shes a woman and has short arms.

The reason why her front hip is pointing downwars is coz shes looking over her left shoulder and she also has her front foot bent for better upwind stance. Poo stance is merely something inveted by flatwater kiters who love the elegant look of having a clean upwind stance. In reality things are slightly different. If you kite in gusty, choppy, wavy conditions (i.e. NZ or UK) there is always a certain degree of poostance necessary for the legs to absorb kickers or edge the board harder in case of a sudden gust. You should keep your hips forward, but your hip connected to your frontfoot should be tilted backwards so you can bend your knee better and put less weight on it.

Regarding stalling, you don't know how her kite is trimmed. It may be set so that when she pulls the bar in real close the kite has got good flying characteristics for the current wind with a long depower travel. If there is lots of wind and the kite is oversheeted it probably won't stall but start dragging you downwind with a lot of power. Women generally like having the kite trimmed much closer to the body as with shorter arms it can be tiring to hold the bar roughly in the middle of the barthrow.

Select to expand quote

gdmclean said..
the girl in the photo above i noticed has the bar sheeted right in. Does she have to let the bar out at some stage to stop the kite from stalling? Im still trying to get my head around apparent wind, sheeting the bar in and out, etc. Her hips are almost pointing towards her front foot as well rather than up at the sky which is interesting. Ive been concentrating on keeping my hips forward to avoid poo stance but never considered turning them towards my front foot.

Lots of trial and error ahead.

I think the girl on the photo is a pose for a nice photo
Don't believe it is possible to maintain this position for very long - your instincts are right, I would disregard this photo - the girl is the only good part of it

Lots of pressure on the back foot and front leg straight is good for a beginner trying to get going on their first runs. Once you comfortable and staying upwind you should work to modify your stance for more square and almost symetrical with front fin of your board engaged in the water nearly all the time. Your body from the shoulders to knees should be straight or almost straight, only knees are bent. When you need to control a strong wind you get your body centre of gravity over water away from the board and hang your body weight on lines through the harness. The weight of your body is supported 50/50 by the board and by the kite lines, not almost entirely by the board.

Hope this makes sense.

cheers for the advice guys, much appreciated!

Have been out the last 2 days for about 2-3 hours each time. Quite glad there is no wind today cos my body feels wrecked. Shoulders, arms and abs are sore. Got a rash on my nipples, upper arms and on my upper legs. And the calluses on my fingers are numerous.

But its bloody fun and yesterday i was out at Melville on my 11m north and was slightly underpowered. Was getting good practice sining the kite up and down to keep the speed going while trying to edge up wind. Read somewhere on here about sheeting the bar out as the kite rises back up and then sheeting the bar in as the kite dives again - really good tip. Also started to edge better when i looked over my shoulder at a point on the other side of the river. Could see the kite out of the corner of my eye and the natural body position while looking at a point 500-1000m away really helped set my edge.

Oh and booties are a life saver on the river.

spent the weekend out at safety bay on the other side of the pond and holy crap saturday was busy. Good experience dodging other kiters and determining who has right of way etc. I get the feeling that a lot of people dont know the rules and just do their own thing. Saw some dodgy launches and one guy almost lost hit kite completely and chased after it across the sand dune and was lucky to catch up with it. Can nail about 25% of my turns now and it makes a huge difference when trying to stay upwind. Want to go on a run to penguin island before the end of the season which will be a good test of my upwind edging.

Wish there were more videos out there on the best way to wind up lines so the next time you lay them out there arent so many tangles. Im winding them up tight like people suggest but every time i go out for another session i always find the pigtails are wrapped around each other and when i walk my lines out the final 3m is always a big knot. On average from starting to pump up my kite to getting launched i take around 20 mins just because of the stupid tangles in my lines :/

Always lay your lines out starting at your kite and walking upwind -
Then separate them walking downwind.
Always wind your lines up by dragging them towards you, this takes any twists out of your lines.
I separate my lines between my fingers while winding them in.
People will say the lines get worn by the sand - not in your lifetime.

Select to expand quote

FlyByKite said..
Always lay your lines out starting at your kite and walking upwind -
Then separate them walking downwind.
Always wind your lines up by dragging them towards you, this takes any twists out of your lines.
I separate my lines between my fingers while winding them in.
People will say the lines get worn by the sand - not in your lifetime.

the upwind tip i try to usually do but when the tide is in at safety bay crosswind is the only option i find.

The dragging the lines towards me i do and i stand in water while doing it so the sand washes off. Havent tried the separating lines between my fingers though. Will give that a go next time i head out.

Select to expand quote

FlyByKite said..
Always wind your lines up by dragging them towards you, this takes any twists out of your lines.

Since the ends are loose and bobbling around randomly, dragging the lines would have as much chance of adding twists as taking them out. If your lines started out completely untwisted (by laying your bar down directly after landing the kite and detaching the lines carefully), then pulling the lines toward you would result in the same (untwisted) result or worse.

Select to expand quote

I separate my lines between my fingers while winding them in.

This technique has a much greater impact on loading the lines untwisted (or at least identifying how twisted they are). You can also tightly grip the lines between your fingers and flatten them out so that you feel if they twist (one line will raise up over another) and even force out minor twists.

Select to expand quote

gdmclean said..
The dragging the lines towards me i do and i stand in water while doing it so the sand washes off.

If the water has waves, they will almost certainly roll the lines and make twists in the loading process. That said, you only need the tiniest bit of water to drop sand from the line, so choosing the calmest water and only going out the bare minimum distance directly into the wave direction will limit the sideways roll.

Most of the time I pull my lines into calm water because it's more convenient, but for a cleaner rollup I usually get better results keeping the lines on the ground as much as possible after landing and walk toward the ends while loading.

PS: If you're not doing it already, loading lines in a figure 8 pattern is also more likely to assist in removing line tangles because you have more opportunity to check the lines while loading as well as running out. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Figure-8-or-0

Select to expand quote

VRBones said..

FlyByKite said..
Always wind your lines up by dragging them towards you, this takes any twists out of your lines.

Since the ends are loose and bobbling around randomly, dragging the lines would have as much chance of adding twists as taking them out. If your lines started out completely untwisted (by laying your bar down directly after landing the kite and detaching the lines carefully), then pulling the lines toward you would result in the same (untwisted) result or worse.

I separate my lines between my fingers while winding them in.

This technique has a much greater impact on loading the lines untwisted (or at least identifying how twisted they are). You can also tightly grip the lines between your fingers and flatten them out so that you feel if they twist (one line will raise up over another) and even force out minor twists.

dmclean said..
The dragging the lines towards me i do and i stand in water while doing it so the sand washes off.

If the water has waves, they will almost certainly roll the lines and make twists in the loading process. That said, you only need the tiniest bit of water to drop sand from the line, so choosing the calmest water and only going out the bare minimum distance directly into the wave direction will limit the sideways roll.

Most of the time I pull my lines into calm water because it's more convenient, but for a cleaner rollup I usually get better results keeping the lines on the ground as much as possible after landing and walk toward the ends while loading.

PS: If you're not doing it already, loading lines in a figure 8 pattern is also more likely to assist in removing line tangles because you have more opportunity to check the lines while loading as well as running out. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Figure-8-or-0

I've been winding spectra lines up for at least 25 years and I know it helps to remove twists - The rest I don't understand.
"by laying your bar down directly after landing the kite and detaching the lines carefully" Carefully ?????

"greater impact on loading the lines untwisted" ?????

Everyone does figure 8 Don't they? Never walk towards the ends while winding in if you want good easy to unwind lines.