The International collision regulations are in place and apply to kiters,windsurfers and yachties to avoid injuries and collisions. We are all out there to have fun and blaze around, however it should be done in a safe manner. Today I had 3 x kiters come at me on port tack whilst windsurfing at the speed spot at Botany Bay.
What part of "port tack gives way to starboard tack" don't you guy's understand.
All 3 occasions I was forced to take evasive action to avoid them. This isn't the first time this has happened and so far I have had restraint from saying anything and just avoiding them. With the speeds we are all doing when it gets fresh it is just a matter of time before someone gets injured if this sort of thing keeps happening. At 35kn's + taking evasive action might not be an option as it requires a split second reaction. When a kite just pivot gybes without looking first, just in front of you and then crosses your path a couple of seconds later, it is dangerous.
I am writing this to keep all of us enjoying the wind and water. Happy to share the water with anyone as long as everyone abides by the rules. Windsurfers included.
Note: All people on the water have a responsibility to avoid potential collisions and should familiarize themselves with the rules before venturing out there.
It would be a good idea if you are coming back from in the corner on port tack to sail below the 2 old timber posts, thus avoiding any starboard tack boards or kites on the speed run. Coming back on port is asking for potential trouble, as experienced numerous times to date.
If you know the rules then inform the ignorant!
Keep it safe.

Select to expand quote

Fez said..
What part of "port tack gives way to starboard tack" don't you guy's understand.

Any of it would be a safe bet.

Most kiters don't have a sailing background and don't consider themselves anything to do with sailing or it's rules - and for better or worse I doubt many schools are hammering home sailing right of way rules.

Forcing you to take evasive action is rude regardless. I'd suggest talking with them on the beach after, some might be totally unaware of their actions, others might have made a 1-off mistake and apologise, but if you restrain yourself from saying anything then nothing will ever change..

how about you explain the difference between port and starboard,id say very few kiters unless from sailing background would know.correct me if I'm wrong -if the wind is coming over your left shoulder you're on a port tack and must give way to others coming from opposite direction.if winds coming over your right shoulder you're on starboard tack and should have right of way,but always give right of way to- people riding a wave
out of control kite looping beginners on an unintentional speed run
tree,wharves and buildings

if your right hand is forward you have the right of way, because then you would be on starboard tack (i imagine that works for kites too)

Select to expand quote

Ricardo1709 said..
how about you explain the difference between port and starboard,id say very few kiters unless from sailing background would know.

So should we assume that one takes mummy's car, does donuts on the road, goes through red lights etc. and can get away by pleading ignorance????

In my opinion you are involved in a new environment, the least you can do is get familiar with its rules and maybe should be the one asking the etiquette for the spot etc?? Only my 2c worth.

Select to expand quote

Rob11 said..

Ricardo1709 said..
how about you explain the difference between port and starboard,id say very few kiters unless from sailing background would know.

So should we assume that one takes mummy's car, does donuts on the road, goes through red lights etc. and can get away by pleading ignorance????

In my opinion you are involved in a new environment, the least you can do is get familiar with its rules and maybe should be the one asking the etiquette for the spot etc?? Only my 2c worth.

I do know the difference between port and starboard but many don't,you can't compare driving as you get tested before you can drive on you're own and to ensure you know the rules so theres no excuse to drive like a dickhead,testing doesn't happen in kiting so yes some people can plead ignorance and maybe people should be more forthcoming in helping them know the right of way rules if they are doing the wrong thing

Select to expand quote

This is from the Maritime Boating Handbook...not hard to work out for kiters!

<div data-canvas-width="13.393333333333334">85

<div data-canvas-width="160.02999999999997">SAILBOARDING

<div data-canvas-width="211.46666666666667">AND KITEBOARDING

<div data-canvas-width="275.28666666666663">Sailboarding (often referred to as windsurfing)

<div data-canvas-width="293.7883333333334">and kiteboarding (often referred to as kitesurfing)

<div data-canvas-width="282.115">are surface water sports that combine elements

<div data-canvas-width="286.39333333333326">of surfing with sailing and kiting, harnessing the

<div data-canvas-width="116.88916666666668">power of the wind.

<div data-canvas-width="264.8883333333334">Both sailboards and kiteboards are classified

<div data-canvas-width="251.9966666666666">as vessels and therefore come under NSW

<div data-canvas-width="112.29916666666665">marine legislation.

<div class="textLayer">
<div data-canvas-width="13.393333333333334">51

<div data-canvas-width="280.8816666683333">SAILING VESSELS AND SAILBOARDS

<div data-canvas-width="234.5716666666667">When two sailing vessels have wind on

<div data-canvas-width="257.05416666666656">different sides, the vessel with wind on the

<div data-canvas-width="278.64558331180007">port side gives way. In the following scenarios,

<div data-canvas-width="146.87999999999997">the red vessel gives way.

<div data-canvas-width="200.04608333474994">If a collision appears inevitable,

<div data-canvas-width="229.82583333333335">the skipper of each vessel must take

<div data-canvas-width="226.8791666666667">proper action to avoid the collision.

<div data-canvas-width="144.38333333333333">IMPORTANT NOTE

<div data-canvas-width="274.93250000000006">When both craft have wind on the same side,

<div data-canvas-width="278.24749999999995">the vessel which is to windward shall keep out

<div data-canvas-width="265.9649999999999">of the way of the vessel which is to leeward.

Select to expand quote

Should readas:

<div class="textLayer">
<div data-canvas-width="13.393333333333334">51

<div data-canvas-width="280.8816666683333">SAILING VESSELS AND SAILBOARDS

<div data-canvas-width="234.5716666666667">When two sailing vessels have wind on

<div data-canvas-width="257.05416666666656">different sides, the vessel with wind on the

<div data-canvas-width="278.64558331180007">port side gives way. In the following scenarios,

<div data-canvas-width="146.87999999999997">the red vessel gives way.

<div data-canvas-width="200.04608333474994">If a collision appears inevitable,

<div data-canvas-width="229.82583333333335">the skipper of each vessel must take

<div data-canvas-width="226.8791666666667">proper action to avoid the collision.

<div data-canvas-width="144.38333333333333">IMPORTANT NOTE

<div data-canvas-width="274.93250000000006">When both craft have wind on the same side,

<div data-canvas-width="278.24749999999995">the vessel which is to windward shall keep out

<div data-canvas-width="265.9649999999999">of the way of the vessel which is to leeward.

Cut and paste doesn't work on this
51 SAILING VESSELS AND SAILBOARDS When two sailing vessels have wind on different sides, the vessel with wind on the port side gives way. In the following scenarios, the red vessel gives way. If a collision appears inevitable, the skipper of each vessel must take proper action to avoid the collision. IMPORTANT NOTE When both craft have wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward.

What throws me off is when I am toeside I struggle to sort out my port/starboard sides. I just work on the premise of "avoid the collision".

When the additional rules of "travelling upwind or downwind, I have a motor, I am on a wave" are applied it just gets more confusing. I just go back to "avoid the collision".

Bigtone667
"WTF"
If you can't work out what tack you are on or if you are to windward of another sailor then don't go out there! You will be putting other water users in danger.

If your front hand or foot is your left then you are on port and you are the give way sailor.

Working out which is your left or right hand might be harder to explain! DOH

Upwind of another sailor on the same tack you are the give way sailor. Keep clear.
Keep in mind the strings on a kite will impose greatly on a windsurfer or sailing boat if not controlled properly of which I have experienced and unlikely to tolerate again.

You don't have a motor in this situation. Kites are sailing and not a motor boat.

The Maritime boating handbook is written in English!

It is all people who go on the water to know the rules applicable. Your responsibility.

Always a good idea to avoid a collision no matter what is happening.

These are the basic International Collision regulations and ignorance of them is more widespread than I thought.

I think the most interesting thing is there is no license/test for non-motor water craft. I have no excuses, but, why would I know any rules under those circumstances.

Now, if kite on my healside all the time, then i have an obvious leading right hand or left hand. Starboard and Port are straight forward. If i kite healside (natural) and go to toeside when i turn around all i ever have is a leading left hand. Confusion sets in.

My moto is then, find some clear air. When in doubt, give way.

Most kiters and windsurfers where i kite keep an eye out for one another and help each other.

I will make it easy for you to understand!
If you look towards the kite and have the front edge of the kite going left you are on port tack... pretty fricken easy to work out bloke.
Like riding a pushbike... you not tested on the rules of the road, but they are there for everyone's safety not just yours.
Just think of the liability if a collision does occur, could get very expensive for someone not abiding by these simple rules.
It was too close the other day and i have had numerous similar close calls, hence my post on this forum. I have a few copies of the book in my car and happy to give them to anyone that needs to read it.
Maybe the NSWKBA, kite schools,instructors and experienced kiters can help by informing those that are unaware of the responsibilities needed.
As far as I am aware, kiting instructors don't have any qualification or national standard to work to. Sailing, windsurfing, keel boat and powerboat Instructors all work to a national standard and process. Boating regulations are part of the instructors responsibility when teaching. Anyone can just go out on the water and if they don't use or have any instruction there is still a responsibility to know the rules.
All water users, kites, windsurfers, sailing boats and powerboats should be able to enjoy their sport.

Out of interest - where were you kiting when this happened?

Windsurfing near St George Sailing Club.... speed strip Woolooware Bay.
There has been numerous times this sort of thing has happened. Not just to me.... plenty of others have had the issue over a long time and it would be good for everyone if we can reduce the potential for accidents to happen. It would mean we can all, both kites and windsurfers enjoy the sport.

Select to expand quote

bigtone667 said..
I think the most interesting thing is there is no license/test for non-motor water craft. I have no excuses, but, why would I know any rules under those circumstances.

Now, if kite on my healside all the time, then i have an obvious leading right hand or left hand. Starboard and Port are straight forward. If i kite healside (natural) and go to toeside when i turn around all i ever have is a leading left hand. Confusion sets in.

My moto is then, find some clear air. When in doubt, give way.

Most kiters and windsurfers where i kite keep an eye out for one another and help each other.

Where is the confusion? The board is travelling a certain direction and the kite is downwind of the baord. You can go toeside and yeah OK your front hand has changed but you are still on the same tack.
If the simple rule of which hand forward does not apply to you figure out another way to remember which is port.

As to why should you know the rules if there is no test - how about if something goes wrong and somebody gets seriously hurt. You think a civil judgement in court won't take the long long standing maritime rules into account?

Have to agree, many kiters are right up there with most jet ski riders for being totally clueless when it comes to the rules on water. They aren't that complicated and its up to all watercraft users to familiarize themselves with the rules and follow them.

Select to expand quote

Fez said..
Bigtone667
"WTF"
If you can't work out what tack you are on or if you are to windward of another sailor then don't go out there! You will be putting other water users in danger.

If your front hand or foot is your left then you are on port and you are the give way sailor.

Working out which is your left or right hand might be harder to explain! DOH

Fez you're showing a complete lack of understanding here. Unlike poleys, kiters can actually go in either direction facing body into the wind or body away from the wind. You guys travel 1 way (forward), we travel in 2 x 2 ways = 4. Well, 5, really cos we go up too

quick now what tack is he on?

^^^ very easy to pick what tack as kite is to leeward on starboard side of board so he's on port
Dumb windsurfer like me can pick that

An easy way to remember is as follows:

When looking towards the front of the board, if the wind is coming from the Right hand side of the board, then you are on Starboard Tack and you have Right of way. If the wind is coming from the Left Hand side of the board, then you are on Port Tack and must give way.

In the photo above the wind is coming from the left hand side of the board as it travels forward, then the rider is on Port Tack and must give way.

The orientation of the rider on the board is irrelevant.

Kiteboy Dave.....
Probably call that "retarded port tack" without keeping a proper lookout for starboard sailors.

I have a complete understanding mate, unsafe practices as in your pic when other sailors are around will be found to be negligence from the kiter if an accident occurs.

It's how to explain it to simple folk that is the issue.

Here is the Maui Kiteboarding association link to the rules of kiting.

http://www.mauikiteboardingassociation.com/kiteboarding_right-of-way_rules.html

Says it all.

Select to expand quote

[quote='fez']Maybe the NSWKBA, kite schools,instructors and experienced kiters can help by informing those that are unaware of the responsibilities needed. As far as I am aware, kiting instructors don't have any qualification or national standard to work to. Sailing, windsurfing, keel boat and powerboat Instructors all work to a national standard and process. Boating regulations are part of the instructors responsibility when teaching.

Agreed with that, we do have the right of way rules on http://www.nswkba.com.au/coc but that's buried in the middle of so much information it's probably overlooked by most. We're in the process of revamping our website so I'll make sure that safety and colisions rules gets a prime spot.

As you've pointed out kiteboarding is still a young sport with little structure around it, especially here in Australia. Kiteboarding Australis is actually working right now on implementing a national framework and qualification process for instructors, with input from the ISAF and Yachting Australia. So far schools have relied on the IKO which was the only international standard but unfortunately has not been up to the task.

Many kiters indeed don't have any sailing or boating background so instructors should really focus on getting them up to speed with the rules if common sense is not enough.

Thanks for reporting the issue and please do talk with the kiters who seem to not know these rules!

Cheers,
Ant
NSWKBA

Thanks Ant,
I think the more we can inform the better and that was the intention of the post. Might help to reduce future aggravation and incidents.
Cheers
Fez

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
^^^ very easy to pick what tack as kite is to leeward on starboard side of board so he's on port
Dumb windsurfer like me can pick that

Now assume you've just landed that way, not sitting back looking at the pic. This is to illustrate bigtone's point that Fez totally missed.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..
..
The orientation of the rider on the board is irrelevant.

Unless you're the one one the board. going "backwards backwards" .

Select to expand quote

Fez said..
Kiteboy Dave.....
Probably call that "retarded port tack" without keeping a proper lookout for starboard sailors.

I have a complete understanding mate, unsafe practices as in your pic when other sailors are around will be found to be negligence from the kiter if an accident occurs.

Aaaand there's the real attitude coming through.

"retarded"

"without keeping proper lookout"

"unsafe practices"

"negligence"



... it's just kiting.

Just cause you guys daydream along in one direction thinking about what tack you're on, then hop off, have a little rest, tweet "commencing starboard tack now", start off in the other direction, doesn't mean everyone's that limited.

You can carry on here all you like but to most kiters:

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
^^^ very easy to pick what tack as kite is to leeward on starboard side of board so he's on port tack

is going to sound like

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
^^^ very easy to pick blah as kite is blah on blah side of board so he's on blah blah

As I said right at the top - talk to the individuals on the beach at the time. The rest is preaching to the converted.

With that ridiculous attitude you have kiteboy dave, accidents are bound to occur.
I think I am trying to provide a solution with all the information posted, to a fairly widespread issue within the boating community to help reduce these situations.
As far as I am concerned, if you can't positively contribute to the discussion then don't.

Read the posts carefully before you make such stupid immature comments.

This is NOT a kite vs windsurfer thing.

Hope you have deep pockets if something does occur on the water with that attitude and disregard for others.

Select to expand quote

Fez said..

With that ridiculous attitude you have kiteboy dave, accidents are bound to occur.
I think I am trying to provide a solution with all the information posted, to a fairly widespread issue within the boating community to help reduce these situations.
As far as I am concerned, if you can't positively contribute to the discussion then don't.

Read the posts carefully before you make such stupid immature comments.

This is NOT a kite vs windsurfer thing.

Hope you have deep pockets if something does occur on the water with that attitude and disregard for others.

Yeah, I think you hit that nail on the head, Dave.

Select to expand quote

Fez said..

the boating community

"boating" ?

Select to expand quote

N1GEL said..

Mark _australia said..
I've never heard a kiter refer to themselves as a sailor (nor should they)... hence the problem.

Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.

"community"

Select to expand quote

kiteboy dave said..

Mark _australia said..
^^^ very easy to pick what tack as kite is to leeward on starboard side of board so he's on port
Dumb windsurfer like me can pick that

Now assume you've just landed that way, not sitting back looking at the pic. This is to illustrate bigtone's point that Fez totally missed.

Irrelevant - as he was on either port or starboard tack before busting out the move. You know what I mean and are deliberately trying to make it harder than it is.

If he was on port and going to pass somebody in the opposite direction he should plan to avoid them so they can hold their course. He should not bust out a spinny thing that will interfere with somebody else's straight run (quite obviously) so if he just landed like that ROW is not relevant, cos nobody else is right there at that moment are they

Kites and windsurfers are part of the boating community. Hence if you take the time to read the Maritme Boating handbook you will see it applies them.
How about trying to contribute to peoples knowledge base rather than disrespecting others when they are trying to help. Try looking up the definition of community, that would help.

It's really not that hard guy's.

Start your own thread if you want to start a slanging match. Seems to be non productive by doing that anymore.

It's a touch ironic that you're bitching and moaning about people observing the port and starboard rules, and completely ignoring the speed restrictions. I don't think there's any rule, anywhere, that says you're permotted to ride at 35+ knots in the vicinity of anything, ever.

It is fundamentally absurd to go steaming into a pack of riders and demand your right of way to do whatever dumb thing it is you want to do. That goes for kiters doing spinny dick tricks as much as for sailboards, or jet skis, or anyone else.

Personally I don't give a **** about right of way rules. They are entirely irrelevant for the type of craft we are on and the type of riding we do (and I do know the rules. I have a number of boating licences that say I do.) They work fine for boats in channels and commercial boating. They sort of work for yachts in races (but not really when you see a tacking duel.

What matters more than any stupid rule is simply avoiding everybody else and not ruining people's day. It's not hard to do.

Select to expand quote

Gorgo said..
It's a touch ironic that you're bitching and moaning about people observing the port and starboard rules, and completely ignoring the speed restrictions. I don't think there's any rule, anywhere, that says you're permotted to ride at 35+ knots in the vicinity of anything, ever.

It is fundamentally absurd to go steaming into a pack of riders and demand your right of way to do whatever dumb thing it is you want to do. That goes for kiters doing spinny dick tricks as much as for sailboards, or jet skis, or anyone else.

Personally I don't give a **** about right of way rules. They are entirely irrelevant for the type of craft we are on and the type of riding we do (and I do know the rules. I have a number of boating licences that say I do.) They work fine for boats in channels and commercial boating. They sort of work for yachts in races (but not really when you see a tacking duel.

What matters more than any stupid rule is simply avoiding everybody else and not ruining people's day. It's not hard to do.

tick .....