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Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?

do you pole dance in a bikini ?
are you a blondie ?
maybe you are easy on the eye ?

not making excuses for bad behaviour
just trying to find the reason why you have become such a kite magnet

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dave...... said...
Windxtasy,one of the reasons theres more guys on the water that have no idea on kites rather than windsurfers is ...

That is just not true. Proportionally there are exactly the same number of windsurfers who have no idea as kiteboarders.

For every numpty kiteboarder there is a matching clown on a sailboard who will insist on blasting through the crowd giving no space to anybody else.

As for right of way rules, if they worked or were relevant then we would not be having this discussion. Riding around with an expectation that you have a right of way creates the exact situation you are trying to avoid. "Waaaah! He got in my way!"

ROW works fine in shipping lanes and marked boating channels. It sort of works in yacht racing where everybody has sat around and fought out the rules (but then go and bend the **** out of them to get an advantage).

The only rules that work and make sense are:
1. Don't hit.
2. Don't get hit.

The two rules together imply a single, overarching rule, it is the responsibility of the faster, more manouverable, more skilled riders to use their speed, manouverability and skill to keep clear of the slower, less manouverable, less skillful.

The ocean is big. Find your own bit of it and go nuts.

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Plummet said...
..................... most wind surfers. ............The seem to be slower to turn and less nibble. ...................

Never a truer word said....kitesurfers do like to nibble

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Gorgo said...

dave...... said...
Windxtasy,one of the reasons theres more guys on the water that have no idea on kites rather than windsurfers is ...

That is just not true. Proportionally there are exactly the same number of windsurfers who have no idea as kiteboarders.
The only rules that work and make sense are:
1. Don't hit.
2. Don't get hit.

The two rules together imply a single, overarching rule, it is the responsibility of the faster, more manouverable, more skilled riders to use their speed, manouverability and skill to keep clear of the slower, less manouverable, less skillful.

The ocean is big. Find your own bit of it and go nuts.

Good discussion, With no personal insults yet, Laurie will be happy.green thumbs to you

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sausage said...

Plummet said...
..................... most wind surfers. ............The seem to be slower to turn and less nibble. ...................

Never a truer word said....kitesurfers do like to nibble

rather nibble than swallow .

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Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Hey mate,I windsurfed then Kited, Most kiters like to pull tricks / airs on their port tack as they are natural footers so the starboard tack right of way can be a pain for em.

At the pond theres a rules board oppo jason and sonyas kite house place with info regarding where kites are supposed to be....upwind close to the spit and windsurfers down wind of the bouy line to seperate the two.

In general kites will go in a circle come into a point high, pull moves and kite back out low to let other guys in...dosn't always work.

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KiteBilly said...

Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Hey mate,I windsurfed then Kited, Most kiters like to pull tricks / airs on their port tack as they are natural footers so the starboard tack right of way can be a pain for em.

At the pond theres a rules board oppo jason and sonyas kite house place with info regarding where kites are supposed to be....upwind close to the spit and windsurfers down wind of the bouy line to seperate the two.

In general kites will go in a circle come into a point high, pull moves and kite back out low to let other guys in...dosn't always work.

Know what you mean, I think the locals generally do a good job of staying up there, but theres a lot of kiters ending up on a line down in the windsurfing area, which is putting them pretty much right in the gybe zone at the eastern end, not a good place to be, lots of windsurfers focused on turning the corner. Most of us have a good look around before hand but theres always a chance of missing a kiter coming down wind doing chop hops etc.

all part of the fun of the pond I guess, with the regular run of visitors and beginners etc

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Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Hey Windxtasy. Sorry to hear about the few that give kiting a bad name.

From my experience a lot of other kiters do not know fully understand the right of way rules except for those that have been trained properly or have a boat licence. I find that the easiest and safest way to deal with this ignorance is to accept this unfortunate fact and not exercise your right of way all the time. Anticipate this ignorance and if you notice that you're on a collision course then make a direct and obvious change to your course to let the other kiter/windsurfer know your intentions. Most times even a slight change in direction is enough if done soon enough. I find that most other kiters/windsurfers do the same despite many of them not fully understanding the right of way rules or fully understanding each other's equipment. Even if the other person doesn't give you the same courtesy, at least you will have time to take more drastic action to avoid the collision. And if the other person seems to have limited manoeuvrability (like windsurfers) then we have a resposibility to make a more dramatic change in our course to avoid the collision.

Same situation with Jet Skis. We have right of way over Jet Skis and most power boats but heaps of Jet Skis and Boats ignore this and try to play chicken with us. How many of us have either been hit or come close to being hit by a jet ski. Despite our right of way, we also have a responsibility to take the necessary action to avoid a collision even if the Jet Ski doesn't.

BTW if a Kiter exercises his/her right of way over a Jet Ski and it results in a collision, both the Jet Skier and Kiter will be fined and both held partially responsible for failing to take action to avoid the collision.

I always check my shoulder before I turn at will, jump etc as pole dancers can sneak up on you especially if they are hitting some speed they have no way of avoiding you at that speed. I also always give way to pole dancers sometimes just easier and more peaceful.............also easier for us I guess....I can't pole dance so this is purely speculation on my part.

But like everything lets put this into perspective, right or way, merging, roundabouts these concepts do not exist in the principality of WA...... I'm just saying.......!

Two words: give way

kitesurfing-handbook.peterskiteboarding.com/safety/right-of-way-rules

And to more: be nice kitesurfing-handbook.peterskiteboarding.com/safety/etiquette

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Addikt said...
I always check my shoulder before I turn at will, jump etc as pole dancers can sneak up on you especially if they are hitting some speed they have no way of avoiding you at that speed. I also always give way to pole dancers sometimes just easier and more peaceful.............also easier for us I guess....I can't pole dance so this is purely speculation on my part.

But like everything lets put this into perspective, right or way, merging, roundabouts these concepts do not exist in the principality of WA...... I'm just saying.......!

Geeze, do you guys have an influx of Vicco's too? They come up here and tell us were the worst drivers in the world, when in fact it's them. We were perfectly fine on the roads untill the inundation

a couple of thoughts for windsurfers to keep in mind about learner kiters:

1. kite control is not great and keeping high or low takes time to learn

2. you can't just jump off the board like a WS and things come to stop... you lose your board upwind as you get pulled downwind, possibly by a kite loop

after doing 2 a few times the kiter wants to stay on board and moving and so won't keep an eye on surrounds that much

i reckon this phase lasts for about 10 hours all up before you get confident moving along in control at a steady pace

An interesting and friendly discussion.
Thanks for all your replies.

Being a kook who has just learnt to get going a few days ago I've found I've got two speeds - fast & sinking. New guys like me are probably common and more conscious of getting in others way than most. A new surfer will be quickly chased out of a crowded takeoff zone if he's getting in the way - as there's always plenty of beach to safely practice. This doesn't seem to be the case in kiting. From what I can tell there's only two flat water locations on the Goldie and it seems to get a bit crowded at times. If you think a kiter is not giving way it could be someone like me who's got one eye on the kite, one eye on the board (and the 5 meters of water ahead) hoping to F&$k I'm not about to hit a sandbank again, trying to remember to keep my front leg straight, wondering where those channel marker poles are and worrying about being too far down the beach I won't be able to get back again!!

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bobajob said...

Addikt said...
I always check my shoulder before I turn at will, jump etc as pole dancers can sneak up on you especially if they are hitting some speed they have no way of avoiding you at that speed. I also always give way to pole dancers sometimes just easier and more peaceful.............also easier for us I guess....I can't pole dance so this is purely speculation on my part.

But like everything lets put this into perspective, right or way, merging, roundabouts these concepts do not exist in the principality of WA...... I'm just saying.......!

Geeze, do you guys have an influx of Vicco's too? They come up here and tell us were the worst drivers in the world, when in fact it's them. We were perfectly fine on the roads untill the inundation

Haaha Booba ;)

Perhaps my sarcasm was lost in the delivery.......

Haha yup, that pretty much captures how people think about Perth. Very good!

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That is just not true. Proportionally there are exactly the same number of windsurfers who have no idea as kiteboarders.

For every numpty kiteboarder there is a matching clown on a sailboard who will insist on blasting through the crowd giving no space to anybody else.

Sorry mate completely disagree. I kite & sail and have to say (well at least in WA) numpty kiters far exceed w/s numptys. It takes up to 3 months before someone can get going on a short sailboard and in that period you learn a lot, not just about windsurfing, but etiquette, right of way etc etc. Whereas kiting can be picked up in a matter of days, which is a recipe for disaster if you get someone that is mal-coordinated, has no idea about various ocean going sports and has a bad attitude. A numpty kite also has the potential to cause much more damage, not only to themselves but to others.

There are also opportunities for poleys and kiters to cooperate

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Peterc150 said...
There are also opportunities for poleys and kiters to cooperate

Speed dating - kiter style

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terminal said...

Poida said...
copy and paste

The following Right of Way guidelines should be adhered to when Kite Surfing: (courtesy of WAKSA)

There is no absolute right of way - All parties should take any action necessary to avoid a collision.

When two riders are on opposite tacks and there is a need to alter course to avoid collision, the port tack rider (left shoulder forward) shall alter course and/or kite position in order to keep clear of the starboard tack rider (right shoulder forward) who should maintain the same course and speed.

When two or more riders are on the same tack with kite lines overlapped, the upwind rider(s) shall keep their kite high and the downwind rider(s) keep their kite low.

When two riders are on the same tack and are not overlapped, the rider behind shall ensure the rider ahead is aware of the rider approaching from behind.

Never deliberately manoeuvre into a right of way position so that it interferes with another water user. If you are behind another kite heading into the beach, turn early to allow the lead rider plenty of room to turn. Always check for other water users before water-starting, jibing, relaunching a kite or recovering a board.

A rider shall not jump if there is any danger of possible collision with another rider.

When wave riding, the first rider on the face of a wave has right of way. This may override the starboard tack rule. Give way to surfers even if they drop in on your wave.

Give way to surfers and other water users when in the surf, at all times.

Do not tack out through a surf break that is occupied by surfers.

All riders should be aware of and abide by all applicable federal, state and local laws and regulations.

Thanks for that.

Just about everyone else on the water adheres to the port and starboard rule, which was designed to reduce collisions.
It may not always be applied between kiters, but its useful to keep in mind with other water users because that's the way they are likely to do it.

Starboard tack - wind coming from righthand side - has right of way over port tack - wind from left side - NO MATTER WHAT sailing craft.

The thing which I find helpful is observation.

With a windsurfer you watch them to see what they are about to do.

With a kiting, you watch the kite not the rider as the kite movement will give a good seconds warning as to what the kiter is about to do.

As a windsurfer sitting down for half an hour watching how the kite moves in relation to the rider gives is invaluable for learning how to read what they are going to do.

Just repeating a tip someone posted on a previous discussion on the same subject...

When heading towards another water user, to indictate your intentions...
- point to self, then point to indicate change of direction
- friendly wave on way past

Note: please don't do this to try to 'force' right of way; rather, use it as a way of letting another rider know your intentions

Funny how port and starboard rules and other basic sailing rules have existed for 100's of years ... yet some egos feel they can just ignore them or dont think they need to know them.....

Sailing rights of way should be a mandatory part of kite lessons.

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harry potter said...
Funny how port and starboard rules and other basic sailing rules have existed for 100's of years ... yet some egos feel they can just ignore them or dont think they need to know them.....

Sailing rights of way should be a mandatory part of kite lessons.

I don't think it's necessarily a case of people not knowing the rules, I think it's a case of them not giving a **. E.g, when I sail at my local, on occasion you get the odd kiter, but they are very polite, adhere to the rules and stick their kite up when they you are coming their way - because it's a reef break 2km from land. They have a lot to lose! 200m off the beach - they act how they want to - they don't give a sh!t.

Hey guys,
i kind of skim read all the posts. Kite Billy pretty much got it in regards to "The Pond". There is a kind of clockwise rotation of kiters going out to the bar, boosting on the way back, and then out again.

I'm a kiter, but it doesn't matter who you are. If you can see guys using that part of the water for the technical tricks, do everyone a favour, keep it safer and use the other water out at the weedbank. There really isn't any reason to further crowd the spot with basic "through traffick".

you may not have even realised what the kiter was trying to do, which was make his way to the high and tight corner for another run. he's probably thinking "why does this windsurfer need to go in the boost area when he has all this other space?"

I myself try and use the weedbank as much as possible as its a larger area of water. See you there

I stayed well away from the pond the whole first season that I kited at safety bay. And now I only venture in there when the numbers were low.

It is definitely not a spot for beginners and people that are not confident. The weed bank is nice and flat and shallow and there is heaps of room out there.

I have seen some utter kooks in the pOnd on a busy weekend..

iv'e been sitting in the water at the pond after a crash, kite at 12 waiting for room to re start, only to see a windsurfer on a collision course with me and have had to quickly body drag down wind or be run over

there are idiots and arrogant people in any sport, you just have to make a judgement call at the time

not biased against windsurfers either iv'e seen plenty of runaway kites and kites nearly crashing on people or gear or kiters getting too close overtaking etc.

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harry potter said...
Funny how port and starboard rules and other basic sailing rules have existed for 100's of years ... yet some egos feel they can just ignore them or dont think they need to know them.....

Sailing rights of way should be a mandatory part of kite lessons.

Agreed.
And I find it bemusing (that is the polite word) that it comes up time and again here.

HOW THE FK can some people NOT know it?

If you learn to drive you know what side of the road to drive on, and give way to the right etc. How can you learn to kite and not know? People learned to sail, and windsurf, for god knows how many years, no dramas.
Kiting is not fkn skateboarding people.

Then after that you go into the waves, and you learn the wave ROW rules.

Why do I waste my time, this thread will repeat every 6 months ad nauseum.....

Thanks again for all the polite replies.

It is easy enough to be rusty on the right of way rules because you don't have to use them very often. It is not as clear cut as on a road.
I have been windsurfing for years but I still have to say to myself "port gives way to starboard" when someone is coming towards me.

Regarding looking at the kite to determine if the kiter is going to change direction, I am always busy concentrating on the water where I am going, it would be dangerous to be looking up in the sky.

The issues I alluded to in the first post all occurred over the weedbank. You expect people to get in your way in the pond, it is a crowded spot. You just make way for each other and get on with it.
On the day in question there weren't that many kiters around but it was amazing how many times the ones that were there managed to get in front of me (and seemed to be oblivious to my presence). They couldn't have done it more effectively if someone was paying them to obstruct me! Probably just a couple of newbies who hadn't learnt to check their blind spots yet.

The easiest way to remember the head on rules is ... turn right to avoid a head on collision. Obviously the starboard rider cannot turn all that much so the port rider ends up doing all the turning.

It's still a moot point when you're 50-100 metres away and not quite sure if you're upwind or downwind of the oncoming rider. It can end up with the starboard rider jamming upwind across the port rider's path and creating the situation you're trying to avoid.

The far more effective method is to:
- head out for open water and stay there
- signal your intentions a long way ahead through kite position, eye contact, body position and waving.
- take evasive action long before you need to.

I still think the concept of riding around with the expectation that you have any kind of right of way is fundamentally flawed and not applicable to kitesurfing or windsurfing. Great for boats sailing in straight lines through marked courses. Pointless for people slashing and bashing and boosting and blasting. The rule that is used in military aviation is better, see and avoid. The ocean is big. Find your own bit and go nuts.