Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Windsurfers don't still exist do they....????

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Paul1 said...
Windsurfers don't still exist do they....????

Maybe that's the problem. Kiters think we're just a mirage...

No, serious replies please. I don't want this to turn into a windsurfer vs kiter debate

hey there Windxtasy, hear what your saying! We can never excuse ignorance for poor form in regard to water saftey. If water user dont know normal giveway rules then they should get off the water until they do! In saying that newbs out on the water on kites some time find it hard to kill speed and they are unpredictable, best to give them wide berth. Easier for a kiter to bear off the wind to avoid passing to close to a fellow sailor and all sailors of differing disciplines should make sure we dont put other water users at risk !!

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Windxtasy said...

Paul1 said...
Windsurfers don't still exist do they....????

Maybe that's the problem. Kiters think we're just a mirage...

debate

WindXtasy - Theres your answer unfortunately and thats the mentality of 'New school' kiters - their own worst enemy will eventually get themselves banned and youll be able to Poleydance in peace

I've had this issue a few times. When kiters first came on the scene I would bear off to give them room. Now I just play chicken and invariably they lift their kite up. They have much more to lose :) especially when they are a bit further out to sea. Just hold your line WindXstacy, they'll move out of your way. I would say in general 90% of kiters are respectful of others on the water. There are just a small minority who f_uck it up for others. It's certainly better than it was 2 - 3 years ago. Maybe the sharks have scared off all the try hards?

Having both Kited and surfed in Wa for the last 25 years i have to sadly agree that the new breed of kiters need to pull their heads in and realise that the water waves and wind is for all , regardless of skills .
Moved back to qld and have kited in Brisssy , sunshine coast and gold coast , definatley more people aware of right of way rules ,every body has respect for all users
Years ago surfing at my local at sunshine beach if any person didnt do the right thing we would sort them out on the beach, might need to go back to old way of dealing with some of the would be world champs

Hey Windxtasy.

Anyone beyond total beginner kiter can turn around and change direction much more easily than a windsurfer (from what I can tell watching windsurfers!!) Ignorance isn't limited to dry land and people who don't give a toss on the road etc will behave the same on the water no matter if they are kiting or poleboarding. There are some first class wankers turning up to ride here no doubt. Having said that, the biggest risk of serious collision at Safety Bay comes from $#@%heads doing speed runs (I think broad reach is the proper sailing term) straight through the dozens of kites and windsurfers happily riding east/west in and out of the pond and on the outer shallows.

I've seen lots of close calls and no doubt there's been some good crashes due to this. If 40 or 50 other water users are tacking back and forth at a relatively similar angle to the wind and 4 or 5 people want to do warp speed diagonally through the pack.....expect to have problems. Again, not saying this was the cause of your issues, probably just some ignorant punks or maybe inexperienced riders, but the 'speed sailors' thing is rather annoying/dangerous.

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Zed said...
I've had this issue a few times. When kiters first came on the scene I would bear off to give them room. Now I just play chicken and invariably they lift their kite up. They have much more to lose :) especially when they are a bit further out to sea. Just hold your line WindXstacy, they'll move out of your way.

I'm not talking about kitelines, the kiters themselves were in my line of travel, or were going to be if I hadn't veered upwind. You're right about who has the most to lose, a windsurfer at 25-30 knots has a fair bit of momentum, and rigid pieces of gear which can give quite a bruise, but it's not about coming off best, it's about everyone having a good time and coming out uninjured and unthreatened.

Competent kiters can do all of the things you ask about.

However, many kiters don't have much idea about right-of-way rules and need education in the form of simple information (general rules as well as guidelines specific to given locations - and I believe Safety Bay has pretty clear guidelines). Such kiters are often glad to be informed and happy to co-operate in sharing the water.

There are many other kiters who are show-ponies and/or selfish wankers and changing their behaviour is rarely a matter of simple information. Of course, there are such people in every group, but kiting, as more of an obvious spectacle than windsurfing, tends perhaps to attract more than its share. Also, as kites (with lines) take up a lot more real estate than sailboards, the ignorant/selfish kiter's actions are more conspicuous and problematic.

What's to be done about this is as much a concern for many of us kiters as for other beachgoers. We want access and a good reputation. We want to self-regulate as a group. We are doing our best to work out how to keep kiting fun, accessible, and compatible with other beach/water recreations.

Hopefully some Safety Bay locals can chip in too with their local knowledge beyond this general spiel.

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SaveTheWhales said...

Windxtasy said...

Paul1 said...
Windsurfers don't still exist do they....????

Maybe that's the problem. Kiters think we're just a mirage...

debate

WindXtasy - Theres your answer unfortunately and thats the mentality of 'New school' kiters - their own worst enemy will eventually get themselves banned and youll be able to Poleydance in peace

Windsurfed for 20 years mate, not sure I am 'new school' but enjoy a good laugh, especially at a non-planing windsurfer as I go screaming past and take the wave that they couldn't get onto, I think to myself "why did I not start kiting earlier" then chuckle as I go charging down the wave.......

Good summary djdojo. Like any fringe activity (motorcycling, Cycling, etc.) the majority are passionate and enjoy the experience without the need to put lives at risk.

But with all these activities, you only notice the 2-3% that act like tossers.

As a newbie to kitesurfing, I generally have two speeds: Fast and slightly out of control downwind, or stop. Stopping is a very simple task, infact, it's the default position for any kitesurfer, so there are no excuses

I try and stay out of everyone's way and only try and take off when I see the coast is clear so to speak.

So my summary is that anyone that's holding their line and not yielding to you on your windsurf, or another kitesurfer or a boat etc. is probably choosing not to yield, as opposed to cannot.

I completed my lessons end of last year with a reputable school (I know some people think that is an oxymoron, I'm undecided, but I do like the word oxymoron which is why I added this bit) and the subject or right of way wasn't even mentioned. I've had to learn this myself (which is academic at the moment, given said lack of control, but one day I'll master this sport).

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Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Maybe describe one of these incidents in more detail, so we can then decide if you understand right of way, then if you do, kindly approach the person on the beach that you feel was in the wrong and let them know the rules, pretty simple really and most kiters are approachable people.....

My take is if you are sailing off the wind you would be the overtaking vessel and should give way while others hold their line. I know when everyone is running the same line it is hard to notice someone coming from further upwind at full speed.
Everything else though is just ignorance as kiters have way more maneuverability than windsurfers (it may also be that kiters can comfortably go closer than you would think comfortable). Only other thing is learners sometimes have absolutely no control.

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Paul1 said...

Windxtasy said...

Windsurfing at Safety Bay yesterday I had to take numerous evasive manouevers to avoid collisions with kiters who were on a collision course with me and showed no sign of changing their course. I am wondering if they even knew I was there?
Questions -
When kiting can you see other water traffic upwind of you?
Can you cange course upwind or downwind to avoid collisions?
Because you sail across the wind all the time (?) do you fail to consider others may be sailing upwind or off the wind?
When changing direction is it possible to look to see if you may be cutting someone off?

These are genuine queries from someone who has never kited and is seeking to understand rather than criticise. Thanks

Maybe describe one of these incidents in more detail, so we can then decide if you understand right of way, then if you do, kindly approach the person on the beach that you feel was in the wrong and let them know the rules, pretty simple really and most kiters are approachable people.....

Sorry no diagram but I can't find paint on this computer.
I guess the situation I find most alarming (and I've had this happen a few times) is when I am sailing off the wind, lets say from top right of your screen to bottom left. Wind is blowing from top to bottom. Kiter has sailed right to left and is out of my path before I get to his line of travel. Kiter unexpectedly turns back along his original line of travel into my path and we are now on a direct collision course. I have to veer sharply upwind to avoid him.

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TurtleHunter said...
My take is if you are sailing off the wind you would be the overtaking vessel and should give way while others hold their line.

Sometimes this is the case and I do give way, however if I was the downwind person I would bear away because safety is more important than enforcing right of way. This isn't a race, and you never can tell if the other party knows the rules! That's why I was wondering if perhaps the kiter, having his back to me, is unaware that I am there?

If find myself going upwind on a tighter angle than most wind surfers. I also find them easy to manuvour around. The seem to be slower to turn and less nibble. the masts aren't that high really. ... a wind surfer is definately less hassle than another kiter as far as positioning is concerned.

I've put this up before and I'll keep doing it until everyone has read it.

All you guys who are new and you instructor did not bother to teach you there is a Kiteboarding Code of Conduct. It was developed several years ago with consultation with many kiting interest groups and we feel it is of value.

Please read it and learn

http://www.nswkba.com.au/coc

sometimes windsurfers who are upwind of a kiter heading the same direction will bear downwind to speed up, thats pretty frustrating if your overpowered and you want to edge upwind and kill some speed. hardly a big issue though.

copy and paste

The following Right of Way guidelines should be adhered to when Kite Surfing: (courtesy of WAKSA)

There is no absolute right of way - All parties should take any action necessary to avoid a collision.

When two riders are on opposite tacks and there is a need to alter course to avoid collision, the port tack rider (left shoulder forward) shall alter course and/or kite position in order to keep clear of the starboard tack rider (right shoulder forward) who should maintain the same course and speed.

When two or more riders are on the same tack with kite lines overlapped, the upwind rider(s) shall keep their kite high and the downwind rider(s) keep their kite low.

When two riders are on the same tack and are not overlapped, the rider behind shall ensure the rider ahead is aware of the rider approaching from behind.

Never deliberately manoeuvre into a right of way position so that it interferes with another water user. If you are behind another kite heading into the beach, turn early to allow the lead rider plenty of room to turn. Always check for other water users before water-starting, jibing, relaunching a kite or recovering a board.

A rider shall not jump if there is any danger of possible collision with another rider.

When wave riding, the first rider on the face of a wave has right of way. This may override the starboard tack rule. Give way to surfers even if they drop in on your wave.

Give way to surfers and other water users when in the surf, at all times.

Do not tack out through a surf break that is occupied by surfers.

All riders should be aware of and abide by all applicable federal, state and local laws and regulations.

Why don't you just kite down wind a bit?

That's what I do.

I can't believe this topic is still going. If you know what you are doing you make a general assessment of everyones ability on the water and steer well clear of erratic sailors of all crafts, especially newbies. I have been on the water all of my life and never hit anyone else or been hit, its all just common sense.....

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TurtleHunter said...
My take is if you are sailing off the wind you would be the overtaking vessel and should give way while others hold their line. I know when everyone is running the same line it is hard to notice someone coming from further upwind at full speed.

The first sentence is how I would interpret the rules but the second sentence is more relevant in that you may not even be seen.
lol my first quote of myself

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TurtleHunter said...

TurtleHunter said...
My take is if you are sailing off the wind you would be the overtaking vessel and should give way while others hold their line. I know when everyone is running the same line it is hard to notice someone coming from further upwind at full speed.

The first sentence is how I would interpret the rules but the second sentence is more relevant in that you may not even be seen.
lol my first quote of myself

That is true and further complicated by the fact that if the sailor upwind is a windsurfer, they have a sail between you and them that is blocking their view (even though that sail has a window in part of it).

was it in the pond?

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Windxtasy said...

TurtleHunter said...

TurtleHunter said...
My take is if you are sailing off the wind you would be the overtaking vessel and should give way while others hold their line. I know when everyone is running the same line it is hard to notice someone coming from further upwind at full speed.

The first sentence is how I would interpret the rules but the second sentence is more relevant in that you may not even be seen.
lol my first quote of myself

That is true and further complicated by the fact that if the sailor upwind is a windsurfer, they have a sail between you and them that is blocking their view (even though that sail has a window in part of it).

So hypothetically......

Your upwind, can't see in front of ya, doin a speed run and you expect everyone to get out of your way?

Run someone down on a sailboard and the result could be death and a judge can sort out who was in the right.

Ummmmmmmm......

^^^^^^ I suspect that'll be what happens to Poletroll if he keeps up his mischievious posts

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Poida said...
copy and paste

The following Right of Way guidelines should be adhered to when Kite Surfing: (courtesy of WAKSA)

There is no absolute right of way - All parties should take any action necessary to avoid a collision.

When two riders are on opposite tacks and there is a need to alter course to avoid collision, the port tack rider (left shoulder forward) shall alter course and/or kite position in order to keep clear of the starboard tack rider (right shoulder forward) who should maintain the same course and speed.

When two or more riders are on the same tack with kite lines overlapped, the upwind rider(s) shall keep their kite high and the downwind rider(s) keep their kite low.

When two riders are on the same tack and are not overlapped, the rider behind shall ensure the rider ahead is aware of the rider approaching from behind.

Never deliberately manoeuvre into a right of way position so that it interferes with another water user. If you are behind another kite heading into the beach, turn early to allow the lead rider plenty of room to turn. Always check for other water users before water-starting, jibing, relaunching a kite or recovering a board.

A rider shall not jump if there is any danger of possible collision with another rider.

When wave riding, the first rider on the face of a wave has right of way. This may override the starboard tack rule. Give way to surfers even if they drop in on your wave.

Give way to surfers and other water users when in the surf, at all times.

Do not tack out through a surf break that is occupied by surfers.

All riders should be aware of and abide by all applicable federal, state and local laws and regulations.

Thanks for that.

Just about everyone else on the water adheres to the port and starboard rule, which was designed to reduce collisions.
It may not always be applied between kiters, but its useful to keep in mind with other water users because that's the way they are likely to do it.

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default said...
was it in the pond?

No. Near the sand bar.

Windxtasy,one of the reasons theres more guys on the water that have no idea on kites rather than windsurfers is its too easy to learn how to get up and going. Windsurfers definately do an apprenticeship. Windsurfing was the most frustrating thing I ever got competent at. As I learnt slowly, I got tips from the crew but was so crap I was a danger to no-one. 1-2 lessons and most guys think they can do the rest themselves with the help of their mates. All that important stuff on consideration of other water users is missing.

If Im heading on an opposite tack to a windsurfer, regardless of port or starboard, I go downwind of them, keep my kite low and gesture to them to go upwind. Being an ex-windsurfer, I know its so hard to get the rush. Wrong sail, wrong board, and what a bugger to learn.
We are on more efficient gear, powered all the time, can smoke a windsurfer on an upward tack. Have the speed record, can ride waves, rails, jump piers, AHH its great being a kitesurfer