Hi everyone,

I've been kiting (strapless surfboard/foil) for 3 years now but can't for the life of me figure out how to get upwind reliably in light wind.

Issue is my home spot is only strong wind, it's either >20 kts or it doesn't blow/will shut off at any moment and 45+ minute swim...

Then I go to "light wind" wave spots with weak wind but epic waves, but can't stay up wind and can't kite the waves, only normal surfing in the mornings/sundown like a weenie. Like Pacasmayo Peru, which is generally 15 kts? I was at Lakey Peak Indo early season this year (one week at the end of August) and couldn't get my 10m or 14m to work, while people are out on 7m (girls) or 8m, 9m totally fine, catch wave, upwind back to point, etc.

Is there some dark magic I'm missing? Unfortunately I'm a fat American and 95 kilos so that isn't great for my chances. I have ~24 liter board, does something more floaty help? I feel like bigger kite actually doesn't help, since they don't move at all to generate power and 14m kite on waves is a death wish/not fun.

When it's windy enough I'm fine can surf decent, can land the occasional board off, strapless airs etc. But the 15-17 kt wind range, which seems so common at many wave spots absolutely KILLS ME! Any tips/advice would be massively appreciated

At 95 kg I'd be looking at a higher volume board

Mate as an experienced wave kiter around your weight I've come to realise that light wind just sucks, boards can help but it's still just a slog. When it's marginal conditions I can be struggling on an 11 when a 75kg person could be having a ball on their 9. Plus 20 knots and I can kite on the same size kite as the lightweights. My solution for this is Wingfoiling in the light stuff and kiting when it's windier.

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ExSurfCentre said..
Mate as an experienced wave kiter around your weight I've come to realise that light wind just sucks, boards can help but it's still just a slog. When it's marginal conditions I can be struggling on an 11 when a 75kg person could be having a ball on their 9. Plus 20 knots and I can kite on the same size kite as the lightweights. My solution for this is Wingfoiling in the light stuff and kiting when it's windier.

Ah, well that's good to hear. I guess I didn't realize it's so weight dependent. Next time I go to Indo I'm going on an all cigarettes diet

Good call with wingfoiling, I'm still on a pretty easy setup but it's definitely fun in more marginal waves. Haven't taken it into anything heavy yet.

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foilsmakeyoufat said..

ExSurfCentre said..
Mate as an experienced wave kiter around your weight I've come to realise that light wind just sucks, boards can help but it's still just a slog. When it's marginal conditions I can be struggling on an 11 when a 75kg person could be having a ball on their 9. Plus 20 knots and I can kite on the same size kite as the lightweights. My solution for this is Wingfoiling in the light stuff and kiting when it's windier.

Ah, well that's good to hear. I guess I didn't realize it's so weight dependent. Next time I go to Indo I'm going on an all cigarettes diet

Good call with wingfoiling, I'm still on a pretty easy setup but it's definitely fun in more marginal waves. Haven't taken it into anything heavy yet.

Or just pick your holidays where it's windy, generally not a problem in WA's windy season. Plenty of other spots around the world too where it pumps. I've always looked at Indo and seen perfect looking waves but always avoided it due to predominantly lower winds.

Just a couple of possible considerations that may /may not help you.
People always refer to trim on the kite as power /depower. this is really a misnomer as shortening of back lines will NOT generate more power in light winds; kite needs to fly forwards in window as much as possible, even luffing slightly. So, use a light touch on the bar except when turning the kite.
Some kites simply won't go upwind as well as others.
You also need to minimise drag in the water, which is not so much about volume as the shape of the board.
And fins are important too of course. Unless you just use a foil! (Best option for light winds!)

Lots of good insights already.

Upwind performance is tricky in light winds. Factors that come in play, some of which were already mentioned, are:

-Skill. Probably the most overlooked factor. Your stance and flying skills need to be absolutely optimal for best upwind performance. If you have any doubts about your technique, it can be well worth paying an experienced instructor equipped with a good zoom camera and radio helmets to optimize your technique. Try moving both your feet further forward on your surfboard, this often helps with upwind performance. Putting too much pressure towards the back of the board can add too much drag.

-body weight. As mentioned above lighter riders go upwind more easily. I was 95kg+ for many years and now about 75kg. It makes a huge difference, especially in light winds. You can use smaller kites which are more efficient at going upwind.

-wind quality (consistency, density). Gusty light winds make it harder. Hotter temps make light wind less dense (less powerful) for the same wind speed reading.

-Current: deep water and strong currents typically make upwind harder.

- KIte: Some kites are designed to go upwind better than others. Particularly high end kites (Aluula, Hookipa) with thin diameter leading edges. If you ever have a chance to demo some of these high end kites, you may notice a significant different in upwind performance. . Note that the bigger the kite is, the less efficient it will be at going upwind due to added drag.

- Bar and lines: You also have to make sure your bar is very well tuned and not oversheeting, and that your safety line is not over-tensioned. We explain this tuning process in detail in our tutorial here: www.kitebud.com.au/kitesurfing-online-courses/kitesurfing-line-tuning/

Longer lines add more drag and can compromise upwind performance, so it could be worth trying shorter line lengths.

- Board: More board volume and deeper fins definitely help upwind performance, particularly in light winds. Try other larger boards and see if that helps.

Hope this helps

Christian - KiteBud

I think a long and narrow board will give less drag than one of similar volume but fatter shape, and rocker is not helpful for upwind in light winds. As Christian has said, avoid weighting the tail, but also try to keep the board fairly level from side to side; it's the fins' job to provide the lateral resistance against the kite's pull.
Another possible issue is trying to point a little too high upwind, which simply creates more drag and less speed, especially if there's an unfavourable current. Results can actually be better by trying a little less hard!

Try a higher volume board for starters, I'm 73kg and ride 22-24ltr kite surfboards. I have a lightwind specific board based on the Thommo Evo outline and it works very well. Fast, efficient kites help which brand/model and sizes do you have?

What are the dims of your board?
Any currents killing your upwind angle?
Agree that you are under volumed. In light winds you should be on a board big enough to maintain your board speed. At your weight a board under 33L is non functional when underpowered.
surfsimply.com/volume-to-weight-calculator
Something in the 40+L will work much better with either your 10M or 14M. Something like a fish or Simmons (i.e Tomo) MPH is very efficient. Choptop nose around your height is a good place to start. Specialized Finless design else a Twinfin (not too small) I find to be most efficient (least drag). Agree narrower & longer board have less drag than a shorter & wider board.
Nothing beats the upwind angle of a hydrofoil.

I know this is unconventional and rare to find (may have to make it yourself), but I remember some guys using a makeshift rudder through the middle of their twintip boards. Worked really well in light winds and they were able to easily go upwind. One guy was even able to pull the rudder out deep into their journey and stash it down the front of their rash vest.

^^That's an interesting idea, but would have limitations too. Like the sideways forces on that fin would be huge in surf or when the wind picks up a bit so it'd definitely need to be removable (and close the slot when it's out if you don't want a jet of water from the slot hitting you in the face!)

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foilsmakeyoufat said..
Hi everyone,

I've been kiting (strapless surfboard/foil) for 3 years now but can't for the life of me figure out how to get upwind reliably in light wind.

Issue is my home spot is only strong wind, it's either >20 kts or it doesn't blow/will shut off at any moment and 45+ minute swim...

Then I go to "light wind" wave spots with weak wind but epic waves, but can't stay up wind and can't kite the waves, only normal surfing in the mornings/sundown like a weenie. Like Pacasmayo Peru, which is generally 15 kts? I was at Lakey Peak Indo early season this year (one week at the end of August) and couldn't get my 10m or 14m to work, while people are out on 7m (girls) or 8m, 9m totally fine, catch wave, upwind back to point, etc.

Is there some dark magic I'm missing? Unfortunately I'm a fat American and 95 kilos so that isn't great for my chances. I have ~24 liter board, does something more floaty help? I feel like bigger kite actually doesn't help, since they don't move at all to generate power and 14m kite on waves is a death wish/not fun.

When it's windy enough I'm fine can surf decent, can land the occasional board off, strapless airs etc. But the 15-17 kt wind range, which seems so common at many wave spots absolutely KILLS ME! Any tips/advice would be massively appreciated

I was at Lakey Peak a week after you. The first 3 days were disastrous, I just wore myself out trying to go upwind.

I had more success by standing up straighter on the board, not trying to going too fast, relaxing and letting the kite go more forward in the window. Also keep the weight on the front foot to stop the board slapping the water and ride the the chop instead of bashing through it.
At Nungas i found if I rode the wave all the way to the end , I was a lot further downwind and I had to do 2 or 3 tacks to get back to the main wave.

The smart guys would get a wave upwind then do 2 turns and get off the wave , they were doing small triangles and got upwind easier because they didn't have to make up so much ground and they didn't have to go out so far.

A local also told me some days the wind at Nungas splits in two and if you are too far downwind it's almost impossible to get upwind. The wind can be side shore in one spot and onshore within a 100 metres.

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NorthernKitesAUS said..
I know this is unconventional and rare to find (may have to make it yourself), but I remember some guys using a makeshift rudder through the middle of their twintip boards. Worked really well in light winds and they were able to easily go upwind. One guy was even able to pull the rudder out deep into their journey and stash it down the front of their rash vest.

What a great idea !!!

Brilliant !!

Heaps of advice already, but to add, I watched a mate who was always so far upwind. He barely moved his kite when kiting. Keeping it stable helps.

Plus a big board, even a quad is handy.

Thanks everyone for the advice. Hopefully this can be good for a lot of people struggling with upwinding in light conditions! I do think it's correct that a lot of it is skill. Where I am it's either 20kts or not windy at all, so my light wind skills are non-existent! Definitely need to practice that...

Next time I will just ride my normal surfboard on the light days. It's ~38L, narrow, standard pulled in tail for more aggressive waves. Probably a bit more rocker than is ideal, but there will probably be less drag overall since it's narrow. I had my best session in Pacasmayo, Peru with a similar board. It's more bouncy than a kite board, but on light days the chop generally isn't too bad. Perhaps custom "kiteboard" with a very large volume would be good, but also it's nice to have a real surfboard, especially in a spot like Lakey!! (Can only bring so much gear on these trips.) On a straight kite trip I always bring a foil for these conditions. But this was a month long Indo normal surf trip, so only was at Lakey for a brief period during the early wind season. So didn't have a foil, etc.

I ride Core Section 4s, it's their wave kite. Not sure about the upwind-ability of these. Generally I hear wave kites are worse upwind than other kites, but definitely nice once you're on the wave! I've heard that longer lines can help you upwind since you can generate more power from the kite when you turn it? I just have the stock bar length lines though... lots of conflicting info!

There are definitely strong parasitic currents at Lakey. Also the wind direction can dramatically change from the beach to where the wave starts to break. Wind is very flukey and gusty at the beach/end of wave especially.

Thanks again for the help everyone!

Of all the good advice above, I would underline the use of groundswell and then shore break to help get upwind. Getting that bit of extra speed helps turn the apparent wind in your favor and gets the kite forward and you pointing upwind. The speed comes from both the wave pushing you in, and the downhill ramp on which you can lean into. I usually count on riding one long lump all the way in to get me back upwind. It makes the trip more enjoyable and makes up for a kite and board with lesser upwind design. If no lumps and light wind, it generally sucks.

There is a light wind skill that you may need to practice. once you comprehend trimming to keep kite forward and not choking it. Then.
simply push your bar sideways to the rear. It will bend your centre line to the left if on starboard tack.

that's it.

awesome thread, excellent advice above. In addition to keeping the kite high, and keeping your feet closer together and the board planing (as distinct from digging in and trying to push against the kite), I have found that you sometimes have to give a little bit of ground to gain speed and then redirect upwind again. Its a constant process, including sine-waving the kite to maintain some power. It needs concentration too especially if it's been a long session. One mistake can really have a major impact on your position in a short space of time! There is a video of Keahi Aboitiz kiting in a wave pool, I think in Malaysia, and the wind is really flukey. If you look at how he goes back upwind in a really confined space, you will see how upright he is but keeps the momentum. Good luck.

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bjw said..
Heaps of advice already, but to add, I watched a mate who was always so far upwind. He barely moved his kite when kiting. Keeping it stable helps.

Plus a big board, even a quad is handy.

Agree agree - 4 fin particularly.

Here's the rudder idea I spoke earlier. See? I wasn't talking crap.

flysurfer-uk.com/product/flyrace/

I'd be scared of that thing hitting my gonads!

Boards plane on width. In light winds a wider board gets up planing easier (which is lower drag). This means you can build apparent wind and off you go. Rocker also has a huge effect, so smallest rocker you can get away with especially in the tail. Huge trade off's for a wave board ??

all of the above are relevant and accurate.
My two cents:
-use a quad and push the the fins(and board) flat
-look upwind
- do NOT choke the kite, it has to breathe to shoot upwind
- Modern planing hull boards are the best for unwinding (aka Tomo)

Thanks again for all the advice guys. So helpful, you've given me some epic sessions that I would have been otherwise suffering trying to go upwind.

The biggest breakthrough I've had was using a significantly larger board. On the light wind days I've been wave kiting I've been using a normal (paddle) surfboard I own, which is this KT board in a 6'4 and 38L (thruster). It's a quite narrow board, with a pin tail. It can be bouncy over chop, and is likely a bit too big, but definitely gets you upwind! Problem I was having, is that I'd try to narrow my stance, keep the kite high, not over-sheet, etc. but then I would just sink the 24L board and need to work the kite again.

Might be worth looking into a more light wind specific surfboard for kiting, as 38L is probably a bit excessive but it's nice to be able to surf that board when there's no wind and good swell. Surfing some sort of low-30Ls board seems hard.
I saw comments about a wider board to start planing easier, but then wouldn't the additional width/surface area also add friction and drag? Worth experimenting with. I could see quad fins helping your upwind for sure, perhaps I buy a ~33L quad more kite specific board but I probably don't need a new board either

Cheers guys, good thread. Hopefully helps anyone else struggling on the light days!

board for reference: ktsurfing.com/boards-2023/helix-camo-carbon/#specs

Board rocker I think is super important (as well as all the other things suggested).

I have 2 boards with almost identical outline and volume (I actually got the second copied from the first) but the second board has no flat section in the rocker (shaper stuffed it up).

They ride like absolutely different boards although looking similar by the naked eye. The board with lots of rocker rides the wave well but unless it's 25 knots plus, it literally will not go up wind.