Took this quote off a local school's site.

"Because our teaching location is so perfect, there is no need for the use of communication helmets. These helmets actually only allow 1-way communication, so the student can't ask questions and there is less Instructor-Student interaction. It is a lot better if the instructor is right next to you holding onto your harness handle as you first fly a kite. We are also able to demonstrate, not simply explain to you what to do."

I'd be interested to hear what others think of these sort of comments. Remember this location they operate from is onshore and one of the busiest in OZ, both inside and outside the sandbar.

I just have this vision of a learner finally allowed to have a go without someone hanging onto their harness. He/she has had their 3-4 hours of the intial safety training and body dragging, it's time to grab the board and go.

Scenario 1
Unfortunately something goes wrong (has been know to happen occasionally in kitesurfng) student has ridden 20m come off the board and instinctively pulled on one end of the bar without realising, resulting in being skull dragged by looping out of control kite. Instructor is yelling out "let go of the bar" but due to the distance between them and the fact the learner is being submerged repeatedly he can't hear and panicks even more and forgets all the safety advice given previously.

But it's all good because he's in shallow water, we all know that shallow water ends up being the shore line. That's where he/she will be saved by other kiters jumping on them as they drag through the dunes in the nature reserve........I guess their could be hundreds of different sinario's.

IMO any school that tries to justify not using communication helmets with the above quote is not putting students safety first. But each to their own, I also don't think you need to learn in shallow water like one of their other quotes on the site, but that's another story. Finally it's nice they demonstrate hey [}:)] I mean seriously what instructor doesn't demonstrate and just explains.

It would be interesting to hear from those that have learnt using communication helmets.... I was just shocked a school finds it necessary to explain why they choose not to use communication helmets instead of not mentioning it all together

i find it amusing that schools would even use a communication helment

just imagine that u c an instructer talking into a microphone drinking wat ever from the shoreline while some one learns on the water

aww man. thats why I can't kite for $h!t. i didn't get a lesson with a walkie talkie helmet.

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Morg said...

aww man. thats why I can't kite for $h!t. i didn't get a lesson with a walkie talkie helmet.

lol, it's great we can see the humorious side after going through it. But at the end of the day a newbie will google stuff and read everything, especially this time of year.

I guess this will turn into who has the funniest response instead of hearing from those that have actual comments from past experience....

I notice Australia's premium school has the option of coaching helmets, says something I guess.

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SammyJ said...



lol, it's great we can see the humorious side after going through it. But at the end of the day a newbie will google stuff and read everything, especially this time of year.

I guess this will turn into who has the funniest response instead of hearing from those that have actual comments from past experience....

i'm a step ahead of u

i got kiteboarding lessons from boards crazy belmont and they used walkie talkie helmets.... made it so much easier haveing the fella talking u thru every thing

Sammy j i could not disagree with you more and im going to say why to each paragraph you have

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SammyJ said...

Took this quote off a local school's site.

"Because our teaching location is so perfect, there is no need for the use of communication helmets. These helmets actually only allow 1-way communication, so the student can't ask questions and there is less Instructor-Student interaction. It is a lot better if the instructor is right next to you holding onto your harness handle as you first fly a kite. We are also able to demonstrate, not simply explain to you what to do."

SammyJ said...I'd be interested to hear what others think of these sort of comments. Remember this location they operate from is onshore and one of the busiest in OZ, both inside and outside the sandbar.

i know the location you speak of, and i can tell you that it does work .. very, very well. in fact 3 instructors at once with no problem. In a typical SW you get a cross onshore wind more onshore than cross but because of the sand bar and the fact that water is only waist deep for a bout 1km circumference lessons are never taught anywhere near the water edge

SammyJ said...I just have this vision of a learner finally allowed to have a go without someone hanging onto their harness. He/she has had their 3-4 hours of the initial safety training and body dragging; it's time to grab the board and go.

3-4 hours... 3 -4 hours of safety training and someone still doesn’t know what they are supposed to do there is something severely wrong. Perhaps you speaking from you own experiences of learning kite surfing in which case I pity the person that had to train you

SammyJ said...Scenario 1
Unfortunately something goes wrong (has been know to happen occasionally in kitesurfng) student has ridden 20m come off the board and instinctively pulled on one end of the bar without realising, resulting in being skull dragged by looping out of control kite. Instructor is yelling out "let go of the bar" but due to the distance between them and the fact the learner is being submerged repeatedly he can't hear and panicks even more and forgets all the safety advice given previously.

i can tell you right now i have been teaching there for 2 seasons and never EVER had a problem. for one your inferring that obviously the student suffers from a complete lack of common sense and instinct to survive, says to him or herself “ hmm things are going wrong I’m just going to hold one side of the bar and keep looping for 500 meters until I hit the shore” This is unrealistic. But lets pretend that our student is as incapable as you they are. All of the lessons starting from more than probably 300 metres from shore with a hard and fast rule that if your less that 50 metres from the shore your kite goes back to 12 and you stop attempting the task set. worst case they get dragged about 50 metres through the water the kite will eventually crashes and they may have swallowed some sea water but will remain relatively unscaved and have a new respect for their kite. I should also mention that just to be on the safe side in summer we also have an instructor on the beach if anyone does get to close there is someone that can come to their aid very quickly

SammyJ said...But it's all good because he's in shallow water, we all know that shallow water ends up being the shore line. That's where he/she will be saved by other kiters jumping on them as they drag through the dunes in the nature reserve........I guess their could be hundreds of different sinario's.

I would love to know how communication helmets are going to help someone while they are being tebagged through the water or onto the beach one it would be difficult to hear and two I doubt they would be listening. Instead both schools rely on the the safety training previously given as well as teaching in the right conditions for that student. And I can happily say that these “scenarios” you speak of have never happened.

SammyJ said...IMO any school that tries to justify not using communication helmets with the above quote is not putting students safety first. But each to their own, I also don't think you need to learn in shallow water like one of their other quotes on the site, but that's another story. Finally it's nice they demonstrate hey [}:)] I mean seriously what instructor doesn't demonstrate and just explains.

Look each school is going to operate differently because we all teach at different locations with different circumstances. I can tell you both schools are great schools and have produced safe happy kite surfers but they just have different methods of teaching period


I

SammyJ said...t would be interesting to hear from those that have learnt using communication helmets.... I was just shocked a school finds it necessary to explain why they choose not to use communication helmets instead of not mentioning it all together

Instead you heard from me one of the instructors of the school you decided to write about I hope this has been an educational journey for you

Thankyou

Ben

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SammyJ said...

Took this quote off a local school's site.

"Because our teaching location is so perfect, there is no need for the use of communication helmets. These helmets actually only allow 1-way communication, so the student can't ask questions and there is less Instructor-Student interaction. It is a lot better if the instructor is right next to you holding onto your harness handle as you first fly a kite. We are also able to demonstrate, not simply explain to you what to do."

lol.
Clever post. ^^^
Well, I have to agree with the above quote, Sam.
That's how I taught my wife years ago....
And that's how I'm now teaching my teenage daughter.
None of my family believe in one-way communication.

Communication helmets can make teaching easier especially in the intermediate learner stage when people are trying to ride upwind, bits of feedback instead of the learner coming to the shore. No quality instructor relies on these, as everything important to safety should be demonstrated by the instructor and then by the student to try and promote a reflex action.

These com-helmets are just the icing on the cake, and there is nothing better than quality lessons to make someone an independent rider. An example of a learner in a looping situation was brought up, so what? A scared learner is gonna listen to someone through a helmet?

Here's another scenario, an instructor goes up for a drink cause he/she can still talk to their student, something goes wrong and they are too far away to intervene.

Hey good post Ben.

I just thought I would add that it is up there on the website because there are a lot of people that ask about the use of com helmets because some schools advertise their helmets which leads people to believe that this is the only way to learn.

I agree with Dave that helmets come into there own in intermediate lessons when the student ends up too far away for any other form of communication.

"I notice Australia's premium school has the option of coaching helmets, says something I guess."

We also have comm helmets at the school but they hardly ever get a run.

Brack

I have to agree with dave here, instructors dont rely soley on the use of their helmets.. you would find any school using these would still be teaching face to face one on one flying skills and safety procedures etc... when the helmets come in use is when your student is on the board trying to get up and going, from there you can give pointers and advice at all times to help them learn faster instead of watching them go out then come in without learning anything new, explain one thing then send them out again.. that would take much longer. or as said above where student gets dragged away from you and crash their kites you can simply just talk them through what to do in different crash situations step by step.

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SammyJ said...
Instructor is yelling out "let go of the bar" but due to the distance between them and the fact the learner is being submerged repeatedly he can't hear and panicks even more and forgets all the safety advice given previously.

* Student is being psycho-dragged behind death-looping kite.

Instructor talking into radio: "Let go of the bar."

Student talking to himself: "What? What did you say?" glug ~ glug

Instructor: "Let go of the fken bar."

Student: "I can't hear you." splash ~ splash ~ crunch

Instructor (yelling): "Let go of the goddamn bar, retard."

Student: "Help. I can't hold on for much longer. I losing my grip."

Instructor: "Oh f#ck it. Get me another beer, Sam."

lol.

SammyJ. I think that quote is a fair enough point of view really. I don't know the company or website but, yeah I don't really see anything wrong with it.

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dave......said...
Communication helmets can make teaching easier especially in the intermediate learner stage when people are trying to ride upwind, bits of feedback instead of the learner coming to the shore. No quality instructor relies on these, as everything important to safety should be demonstrated by the instructor and then by the student to try and promote a reflex action.

These com-helmets are just the icing on the cake, and there is nothing better than quality lessons to make someone an independent rider. An example of a learner in a looping situation was brought up, so what? A scared learner is gonna listen to someone through a helmet?

Here's another scenario, an instructor goes up for a drink cause he/she can still talk to their student, something goes wrong and they are too far away to intervene.

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Charl dv said...

I have to agree with dave here, instructors dont rely soley on the use of their helmets.. you would find any school using these would still be teaching face to face one on one flying skills and safety procedures etc... when the helmets come in use is when your student is on the board trying to get up and going, from there you can give pointers and advice at all times to help them learn faster instead of watching them go out then come in without learning anything new, explain one thing then send them out again.. that would take much longer. or as said above where student gets dragged away from you and crash their kites you can simply just talk them through what to do in different crash situations step by step.

Wise men^^^

I think some have totally missed my point.... Why on earth would you go into depth explaining why you don't use a very handy teaching device on your website, wouldn't you be best leaving it out instead of drawing attention to it.

I guess if people are ringing to ask if you use them then that shows they would be more comfortable using one to learn. The fact you tell them no need because our location is safe is total ignorance. Let's face it, it's not perfect.

Waveslave your not running a business, your teaching family every few years when they are ready. I don't think this is relative to you mate, sorry.

Ben I wonder if your the instructor who's kite I had to rescue before it ended up in the fence and trees because you never put your safety on properly last season...The second time it went 10 mins later I just couldn't be stuffed. Probably one of the other instructors, he was all full of himself telling me he's an instructor. Like I care....

^^^^^good point.
Nothings perfect. I know an instructor who was using one and told the student how to go one way and not gybe when you get 100m out. The batteries ran out and thank god it was a river location.
Why they advertize it is strange to me also....
AKS (Darren Marshall) was one of the pioneers of using this technology and it radically changed the way he taught for the upwind bit.....

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waveslave said...

SammyJ said...
Instructor is yelling out "let go of the bar" but due to the distance between them and the fact the learner is being submerged repeatedly he can't hear and panicks even more and forgets all the safety advice given previously.

* Student is being psycho-dragged behind death-looping kite.

Instructor talking into radio: "Let go of the bar."

Student talking to himself: "What? What did you say?" glug ~ glug

Instructor: "Let go of the fken bar."

Student: "I can't hear you." splash ~ splash ~ crunch

Instructor (yelling): "Let go of the goddamn bar, retard."

Student: "Help. I can't hold on for much longer. I losing my grip."

Instructor: "Oh f#ck it. Get me another beer, Sam."

lol.

Something like that but with comm's the chance you get in that situation is reduced drastically.

All this feedback is indicating ppl are out there learning without helmets at all. That's a concern in it's self.

Slave I knew you would get some milage out of this, but hey, like you I'm not one to say what ppl want to hear.

Seems idiotic to me to try and justify why you don't use a valid piece of safety equipment. Do they use helmets at all??

Hi Guys,

I'd like to throw a few words into the ring If I may to clear a few things up.

Radio helmets are not good lessons, they are only a tool at the disposal of the instructors to improve the lesson quality if the instructor feels it works for them. In our school, no instructor is forced to use the radios, they can choose to simply not turn the units on. All instructors do use the helmets with radios on.

Radio helmets are a really great communication tool to use when teaching students throughout the instruction process. The key word is that the helmets are a "tool" which enhance the quality of a good lesson. They are not a silver bullet for making bad instruction better. The radio comms are simply a conduit through which the advice is channeled.

Quality lessons are defined by the quality of instruction offered. Experienced instructors catch the small visual clues that other may miss, and use them to offer remedial instruction as it is needed, not after.

Every location has pro's and cons. It is the instructors job to modify their lesson style and content to take into account the difficulties on any location and make positives from them.

The ability to get timely advice across to the student in a calm collected voice is in my opinion, essential so we can try and avoid the situation where a hapless student is getting dragged out of control. I am under no delusions that this can't happen to a student in a radio helmet as well, but the ability to get information to the rider even if the students head is underwater is a great bonus.

I mean, if a student is going to wear a helmet in any case, what is the harm in having a communication device built in? Radio helmets are obviously not compulsory for use in schools and it is the schools decision to include their use or not.

AKS have used the helmets for the last 4 years throughout much of the testing and R & D stages of Headzone, with many ongoing problems and frustrations (mostly charging issues, not transmission problems), not to mention the enormous cost of the helmets and radios, and ongoing, time consuming, regular preventative maintenance (every day).

On top of all these problems, we believe they offer a real value and benefit to our coaches and our customers. So we continue to use them. Headzone have been good to deal with but if I didn't consider them an essential tool to our lesson plan, then I would have dumped them long ago.

Customers vote their confidence in the service they receive with their wallets, and will return for additional lessons if they are satisfied with the level of teaching in the first place. If both schools are busy and have plenty of customers, then this topic is nothing more than personal opinion of which each person is entitled.

Sorry this was a bit long winded but you get where I'm coming from right?

Cheers,

KH

"Something like that but with comm's the chance you get in that situation is reduced drastically.All this feedback is indicating ppl are out there learning without helmets at all. That's a concern in it's self."

old tradesmans saying, " you want it fast, its not cheap, and it's not quality. you want it cheap, it's not fast, and it's not quality, you want quality, it's not cheap, and it's not fast.

Any decent kitesurf school teaches properly with helmets and gives and gets the student to demonstrate all necessary safety issues. IMO, a com-helmet is merely a teaching device not a safety device and good schools should have them available to give their students value for money. They are therefore best practice but not absoultely necessary.

Where they come into their own is where intermediate kiters are trying jumps, back-rolls, front-rolls etc. and feedback can be given to a calm individual who knows all the basics and fear is not entered into in the scenario, of course IMHO.

personally ive given lessons with and without them and i found giving lessons with them is far less stressful and the students stayed alot calmer throughout the lessons... they also learned considerably faster... as darren said its not a requirement to use the radios and we've had times where radios go flat etc and we had to do it the oldschool way but having them there just gives students more value out of their lessons at ANY given level of riding, dead set beginner right through to intermediate levels learning tricks.

"safetybay" is onshore no matter how u look at it......
ie there is always land down wind of u no matter how far out on the sand bank you are or how far out on the water u are therefore there is something down wind off you that can cause serious damage. add in another thousand kiters and another thousand windsurfers u have the best location ever for lessons.

Every day i see full paying lessons being taught by IKO assistant instructors, with the level 2 instructor at least 500m away behind the tree's talking to customers.

He justifies this because he has a radio on him so he can talk to the assistant, the assistant has a radio on him, and the student has a 1 way radio helmet on...

I think as these helmets become more and more common, they tend to get abused more... Sure they work for calm riders in control... but i find students tend to get into 'listening' mode and wait for instructions, rather than 'thinking' mode and asking questions and trying things out for themselves...

A rider who always waits for instruction is never going to get anywhere and will keep coming back for more lessons (because they need them). A rider who can think for themselves and get out of a bad situation on their own won't come back for more lessons, because they don't need them anymore...

I'd rather see people out there enjoying themselves on their own after 2 lessons, rather than forking out for 5 lessons, and still needing help on the beach because they don't have anyone telling them where to stand for a launch...

I reckon it comes down to being taught by a 'school' who wants to sell heaps of lessons - or a shop who'd rather see you out riding and can then sell you gear...

I would have to agree from reading the responses that a coaching helmet is a valuable tool for teaching once a student progresses past the flying of the kite and body dragging stages....But I also look at it as a safety device as far as head protection. Like Darren said it does'nt need to be turned on if the student shows good ability.

I guess after reading more on the schools site, it's apparent whoever owns the buisness is more concerned about how his competitor operates.

If Safety Bay is so perfect like you suggest why would you pay an instructor all that money to stand on the sandbar waiting for out of control learners, surely that's unecessary.

Do you think that wind is going to come today

Is anyone going one step further and teaching more advanced moves via com helmets? Sounds like a good idea to me.

^^^^Darren at AKS has done this in the past. Intermediate rider coaching clinics, From feedback I got, it was excellent. Coaching and video analysis in the morning and kitesurfing in the arvo, with com-helmets. Will he run one this year, mabe if there's enough interest????

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KIT33R said...

Is anyone going one step further and teaching more advanced moves via com helmets? Sounds like a good idea to me.

I did a lesson with Mike in the Coco's learning kite loops and back rolls and thought the use of the Helmet com was great. Was good becuase he used it to push you (the science of the moves isn't difficult) and could tell me to "HTFU and doooo iitttt" and know I'd hear him.

Well let's not stop at just helmets.
How about a dedicated crash-suit for learners ?
Seriously.
I'm talking about when students are dicking around on the beach learning to fly a fullsize real kite.
The crash-suit would consist of air-bag protection, heavy-duty padding, boots, body armour and helmet.
A human beachball flying a kite.

I don't think kiting is hard enough task to warrant intermediate lessons via a walky talky... I mean how hard is it to go out try something, come back in and ask the person how you did? I think someone would be able to talk you through a trick much better face to face than over the phone.
Video footage of yourself is more help than anything.

I agree that teaching beginners would be made easier with the use of the helmets though.

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waveslave said...

Well let's not stop at just helmets.
How about a dedicated crash-suit for learners ?
Seriously.
I'm talking about when students are dicking around on the beach learning to fly a fullsize real kite.
The crash-suit would consist of air-bag protection, heavy-duty padding, boots, body armour and helmet.
A human beachball flying a kite.

Hey you could just wear straps and dangle to do wakestyle as well... Oh wait ppl already do that.

admin will lock this topic by days end......

Good one Rowds....you've done yourself proud once again.

I'd like to kite with ya one day ya cunny funt!

Stabbs

haha sure man, come up for a session whenever you want, the older fellas here are pretty nice blokes and I'm sure we can arange some downwinders for you in exchange for a few beers.

Darwin's Theory of evolution
The dummies that need to rely on a helmet to tell them what to do, cos they didn't pay attention to the safety lesson, or dont have enough common sence... we prob dont want out on the water with us...

Yeah yeah i'm crewl. I can see the pro's of the helmets: Someone letting you know ther e and then what your doing wrong, so you improve faster.

BUT also the con's: It like someone telling you which way to go when your driving. You dont actually pay attention to where your going. So when the person directing you is gone, you have no idea which way to go home...

So at the end of the day its prob up to each instructer what works best for them and their students (and what makes it easier to get that next beer!!)