Sorry not a video... a question, a noob question but I can't help it. I need to understand all this kite lingo.

"The 5th Dimension"

I am referring to the 5th line on kite bars.

There is the 5th line, I get that, but what is...

* 5th mini?
* Virtual 5th?
* Under load 5th?
* Not under load 5th?

And can you make a 5th on a 4-line kite bar and add extra safety to a normal 4-line kite? Or is 5th line only for kites designed to be used with a 5th line.

Don't get me going on the 6th line, as that's another "dimension" yet again! It's doing my head in.

-Connor

Just get a four line bar, and a four line kite. Then you can use it on most kites until the bar is broken.
Unless you're a north rebel fanatic, then just get all north rebels, and the five line bar.

Old Fuels have 5 line, * Not under load 5th.

You don't need the 5th, its an option that was added to the kites to assist in relaunching and safety, being able to flag out to the center of the main strut.

Thanks guys, but I am still looking for answers to the terminology? Or should I just ask Eppo?

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ColoColo said..
Or should I just ask Eppo?

Hmmmmm, I would strongly advise yes. The Ayatollah of rock and rolla is the compendium of kiting.

Hi Connor,

Mini 5th Line or Virtual 5th line is the same thing. It used to be the most common safety system out there but is now actually becoming the least common type.

Basically it's a 4 line bar with an additional shorter 5th line (usually red in color) attached to where the front line splits (typically called the ''Y'' or ''V'). So when you activate the chicken loop quick release you are now only attached to the said Mini 5th or Virtual 5th which is in fact connected to both your front lines. This system is slowly disappearing from the market as it doesn't guarantee your kite with flag out, however a few brands are still using this (Ocean Rodeo and F-One for example). In most tangle scenarios or in low winds this type of safety system typically doesn't work at all and the kite will still pull.

Here is what a mini 5th setup typically looks like:






With a setup like this, the closer the ''V'' to the bar (or the shorter the Mini 5th line is) the less chance your kite will flag out when using the safety system.

A true 5th line is a setup where you bar actually has 5 lines (all of equal lengths) and where the entire 5th line is dedicated to safely flagging your kite when activating the chicken loop quick release. The difference between a loaded 5th is that the 5th line actually has tension on the leading edge of the kite when flying it whereas an UN-loaded 5th line doesn't have any tension on the leading edge and therefore doesn't affect the flying characteristics of the kite. Loaded 5th line kites are actually pretty rare and correspond only to a few models on the market.




With the right skills and tools, you could add a 5th line to any 4line kite/bar out there as long as you can attach it (securely) to the center of the leading edge without any tension. If you did this on an older bar with a bad safety system it would greatly improve the safety system.

However if you had any leading edge tension on a 5th line on a kite that isn't designed to have a loaded 5th line, it will fly like crap...and vice-versa if you tried to fly a loaded 5th line kite on a 4 line bar it wouldn't work well at all.

In terms of safety, 5th lines offer the best and most consistent results when the chicken loop quick release is activated and safety-wise that won't make any difference whether you're flying a loaded or unloaded 5th line.

5 line bars and kites are also not common mainly due to one manufacturer owning a patent on the 5th line and also due to the popular belief that 5-line kites are harder to manage in difficult scenarios such as a kite inversion (which is true if you don't have the right skills and experience).

Nowadays, 4-line bars flagging on a single front line are becoming the most popular, simple and effective system as it give similar safety (flagging) performances as the 5th line without the need for an extra line. Essentially when using a single front line safety system, you are only connected to 1 of your front lines (and not both) which immediately flags your kite in just about any scenario/conditions.

I hope this makes sense and answers your questions.

Christian

Hey Christian - that's a great explanation and clarified some of the strange terms for me also ! I actually learnt on a 17 m fuel kite when I converted from the pole dancing scene 7+ years ago and that was a loaded 5 line kite that was interesting in that the flying characteristics could be change by putting more or less load on the fifth line . But the big down side to a true 5 line kite is it will cut the kite in half if rolled and then the 5th line put under pressure - hence the 'wave grenade' release on the fuels??

I currently fly F-one kites and while I haven't bunged off all that often, I find the depower which is connected to both front lines to work well. The kite rolls on its back and falls out of the sky :-) .

On some other 4 line kites that I have flow over the years, they did flag out to one front line and I found they tended to spin (not exactly kite loop but you know what I mean) after release and wind the lines up making relaunch harder.

I quite like the 'twin front line' depower system and I'm interested to hear what are the advantages of the single front line system?

I was tempted...

So subdued Eppo! Though Christian totally covered it so not much to add really.

Having flown 5 line rebels for a couple of years and now 4 line Neo's for a couple of years I'm a 4 line fan.

Probably more experience as well, but I had many many dramas relaunching rebels after getting trashed In the waves. But I don't think I've ever not been able to relaunch a trashed 4 line Neo.

Touches wood ahead of tommorowa big front

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cbulota said..

5 line bars and kites are also not common mainly due to one manufacturer owning a patent on the 5th line and also due to the popular belief that 5-line kites are harder to manage in difficult scenarios such as a kite inversion (which is true if you don't have the right skills and experience).

An Airush razor I demoed a few of years ago also had 5 lines, are you sure it is patented to one company only?

I also had a Liquid Force c. 2005 with 5 lines.

Aside from the extra hassle of having to run out/untangle 5 separate lines, the 5th line could also cut through the leading edge if the kite was rolled in waves.

Hi Lambie,

It's good to dissociate the words ''depower'' vs ''flagging out''. Depower typically means just minimizing the angle of attack of the kite (sheeting out or letting go of the bar) where as flagging out means the kite is no longer capable of flying or relaunching and offers very little if any pull once the safety system has been activated.

For example if you release your F-One safety system in sub 15 knots, your kite may ''depower'' but there is little chance it will actually flag out and that's one of the problems with dual front line safety systems. In strong winds however, most (but not all) dual front line safety system tend to work well in most scenarios. However, in certain rarer scenarios such as a bridle tangle (typical consequence of a kite inversion) dual front line safety systems are simply dangerous.

This exact bridle tangle scenario using a dual front line safety system is well illustrated in this video thread:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Another-death-loop-videomore-lessons-learned/

I've done countless experiments with all types of safety systems in various conditions and scenarios.

In my latest experiment, I reproduced the same bridle tangle scenario on the beach in low winds and using a dual front line safety system, the kite just kept spinning out of control in a death loop even with the safety system activated (I essentially reproduced the same situation as the video, just in less wind).

I then tried the same bridle tangle on a single front line safety system and the kite flagged out no problems even if the safety line's bridle was wrapped around the kite!

I repeated each scenario with each safety systems multiple times, results were the same. Each time I was caught in a death loop with the dual front line safety system I had to completely release the kite and run after it.

Still not convinced? just wrap one of your bridle around your wing tip and launch your kite, then release your safety system and see for yourself.

It's pretty simple, the less attachments points your safety system has to your kite the more likely it is that your kite will flag out...as long as it's not attached to one of the back lines (wing tips) of course.

The only advantage of a dual front line safety system it it's usually easier to relaunch your kite after releasing the safety (i.e. by accident) which really only suits more advanced kiters. The majority of brands have switched to single front line safety systems, because it's safer, especially for learners/beginners.

Christian

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HighzaKite said..

An Airush razor I demoed a few of years ago also had 5 lines, are you sure it is patented to one company only?

Yes the 5th line patent belongs to North and other manufacturers must pay a certain amount to them for each 5th line bar they produce...which ends up being quite expensive when you produce thousands of bars... However a manufacturer can add an ''optional 5th line'' in the bag without it being attached to the bar, therefore not having to pay.

Thanks Christian - I reckon your summary says a 5th line is not a good idea for the normal conditions - 5 line kites are very prone to the bow tie and rip the kite in half scenario !! But when that doesn't happen they are as safe as !! LOL

I think the new safety systems (for most kite brands) are pretty good and to fall back to a 5th line safety system is an interesting purchasing decision !!

New avatar Christian. Nice.

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waveslave said..
New avatar Christian. Nice.

Hmmmmm, Nice action shot. I can tell by the shadow on your right shoulder you're about to receive a basketball.

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MrFreeze said..

waveslave said..
New avatar Christian. Nice.

Hmmmmm, Nice action shot. I can see by the shadow on your right shoulder your about to receive a basketball.

Basketball ? You think ?

I thought that was a sweat spot.

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waveslave said..

MrFreeze said..

waveslave said..
New avatar Christian. Nice.

Hmmmmm, Nice action shot. I can see by the shadow on your right shoulder your about to receive a basketball.

Basketball ? You think ?

I thought that was a sweat spot.

LOADED 5TH - the 5th line under load / tension ( such as : north vegas & rebel)

UNLOADED 5TH - 5th line not under load .... but can have a tiny load to help kite pop up after slacking but not necessary...... only important on pure-c kites..... bridled-C probably doesn't need it IMO ( such as : Naish torch, Slingshot fuel, gaastra pure, wainman maniac)

MINI 5TH - a short 5th line from v connection. often the kite doesn't flag on this micro 5th (such as : ozone C4 5th line conversion)

VIRTUAL 5TH - 5th line direct from kite to below bar flagging

swear by the 5th line on my fuels......just saying!!

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cbulota said...

waveslave said..

MrFreeze said..

waveslave said..
New avatar Christian. Nice.

Hmmmmm, Nice action shot. I can see by the shadow on your right shoulder your about to receive a basketball.

Basketball ? You think ?

I thought that was a sweat spot.

Hmmmmm, how delightfully wrong i was.

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mypassingwind said..
LOADED 5TH - the 5th line under load / tension ( such as : north vegas & rebel)

UNLOADED 5TH - 5th line not under load .... but can have a tiny load to help kite pop up after slacking but not necessary...... only important on pure-c kites..... bridled-C probably doesn't need it IMO ( such as : Naish torch, Slingshot fuel, gaastra pure, wainman maniac)

MINI 5TH - a short 5th line from v connection. often the kite doesn't flag on this micro 5th (such as : ozone C4 5th line conversion)

VIRTUAL 5TH - 5th line direct from kite to below bar flagging

swear by the 5th line on my fuels......just saying!!

looks like cabrinha has gone one better and introduced a 6-line bar specifically for the chaos, arc support lines look like they run off the front lines

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MrFreeze said..

cbulota said...

waveslave said..

MrFreeze said..

waveslave said..
New avatar Christian. Nice.

Hmmmmm, Nice action shot. I can see by the shadow on your right shoulder your about to receive a basketball.

Basketball ? You think ?

I thought that was a sweat spot.

Hmmmmm, how delightfully wrong i was.

Hmmmmmmm, very creepy MrFreeze. ^^

Christian, I hope the young lady gave you permission to plaster her photo all over the internet.

lol.

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ColoColo said...
Sorry not a video... a question, a noob question but I can't help it. I need to understand all this kite lingo.

"The 5th Dimension"

I am referring to the 5th line on kite bars.

There is the 5th line, I get that, but what is...

* 5th mini?
* Virtual 5th?
* Under load 5th?
* Not under load 5th?

And can you make a 5th on a 4-line kite bar and add extra safety to a normal 4-line kite? Or is 5th line only for kites designed to be used with a 5th line.

Don't get me going on the 6th line, as that's another "dimension" yet again! It's doing my head in.

-Connor

Buenos vientos y la paz

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cbulota said..
Hi Connor,

Thank you so much Christian. That made it perfectly clear. I have a set of old Rhinos that I've only been flying with a 4-line bar with the safety connected to one of the front lines, but I think a 5th line would help me flag out the kite better? Otherwise the entire kite will spin at a pivot on the tip of the leading edge

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James said..

ColoColo said...
Sorry not a video... a question, a noob question but I can't help it. I need to understand all this kite lingo.

"The 5th Dimension"

I am referring to the 5th line on kite bars.

There is the 5th line, I get that, but what is...

* 5th mini?
* Virtual 5th?
* Under load 5th?
* Not under load 5th?

And can you make a 5th on a 4-line kite bar and add extra safety to a normal 4-line kite? Or is 5th line only for kites designed to be used with a 5th line.

Don't get me going on the 6th line, as that's another "dimension" yet again! It's doing my head in.

-Connor

Buenos vientos y la paz

Get lost wog!

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ColoColo said..

cbulota said..
Hi Connor,

Thank you so much Christian. That made it perfectly clear. I have a set of old Rhinos that I've only been flying with a 4-line bar with the safety connected to one of the front lines, but I think a 5th line would help me flag out the kite better? Otherwise the entire kite will spin at a pivot on the tip of the leading edge

In the case of a North Rhino, depending on the year, that front line may actually be connected to the wing tip....really old school and in that case the 5th line would be a lot safer yes. On modern bow/delta kites, single front line safety are perfectly safe and won't send your kite spinning out of control.