So I'm interested in getting in to foil boards but wanted to speak to some people for their input before taking the plunge.... and plunging in the right direction.

I've been kiting for around 2.5 years, would rate myself early intermediate.
I ride in conditions from 15 to 35 knots here in Vic, on a 9m and 12m rebel.
At the moment I only ride a twin tip and haven't used a directional before.

Before stepping in to foil boards is it recommended that you're proficient on a directional? Or is a foil completely new again to learn?

When riding a foil how heavily does it influence the size of kite. I assume as foils are a lot more efficient over the water your kite size requirement would be smaller. Would my standard 12M days require a much smaller kite?

When riding foil boards are normal inflatable leading edge kites perfectly ok to use?

At the moment I'm not looking at pushing the limit of low wind ranges but am keen to get out on 10-15 knot days when there's that warm breeze and the sun is shining.

Thanks in advance for any input.

Sam.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Entry-level-foils-boards-for-beginners/

No, I don't think so. You have to adapt your riding so much, directional experience won't help. Not completely new, but very different in that you gotta have your weight forward and don't edge the same.

Depends on the foil apparently. In the beginning, I'm using a kite that would have me up on a TT but not going upwind.

Yes. I haven't used my foil kites yet because I get lobbed every direction and don't want to have to worry about the kite.

I was out today in 10-12+ (apparently) with a 2011 Switchblade 14m...at best, it was adequate but when it was lighter, I wished for a faster, rather than bigger, kite.

Go through the topic toppleover posted - it is an epic but it has a lot of good information. I also agree with Kamikuza, in that it is sufficiently different from normal directional boards that experience on them won't automatically make you more likely to succeed on the foil.

I've ridden most things behind a kite (wakeboards, twin tips, mutants, surfboards, race boards) and the foils need a completely different style and balance to all of them. The race boards would probably be the closest, but still very different to those (race boards are completely different from normal directionals too).

I'm still an absolute beginner on the foil myself and only had my 3rd session today... All 3 sessions have been in around 10 knots on a 12m 2014 Naish Park. When the wind is dropping below 10 knots, getting out of the water can be a challenge, but once you get up on the wing it just takes off and you go upwind like mad. I haven't been out in 15 knots yet, but I'm guessing that you would be close to wanting to switch down to the 9m by then.

What I've done to try and speed up the learning curve is to use shorter masts... For my first two sessions, I had a 15" mast. This allowed me to get a feel for the balance points without having dozens of massive stacks - if I screwed up and put my weight back too far, the foil would come up and breach, but it would only come out a foot and I would just fall back onto the board and keep riding. Falling 3 foot from a full-length mast breach is very different than falling from 1 foot... I spent around 2.5 to 3 hours riding on the short mast until I could keep up on the foil consistently.

Today, I put the 22" mast on and had a blast. Still plenty of stacks, but I could also still recover from most of the breaches. I had plenty of nice, long, silent rides completely on the foil. I was also able to do all this in slightly deeper than waist deep water (because of the short mast), which makes relaunching the kite in those conditions a lot easier (I dropped it twice)... The majority of the stacks I had today were not from breaching, but were coming off the front of the board because of the way you need to have so much of your weight forward rather than back on all the other boards.

I detailed this a bit more on a post on this page:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Entry-level-foils-boards-for-beginners/?page=18#1865271

I know the short mast thing will not be for everyone, will limit your choice of foil (basically to the Aluminium ones), and will cost more (buying an extra mast), but I just thought I would mention it because it's not something I had seen discussed much, but it makes a lot of sense when you see it in action and hear the stories from the majority of guys that learnt 'the hard way'...



www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Entry-level-foils-boards-for-beginners/?page=18#1865271

Directional experience will help a good deal. If nothing else borrow a surfboard and practice a few waterstarts. Otherwise you'll end up using a foil with footstraps which has a few safety risks. Gybes and tacks are useful but not essential.

Otherwise, ante up and get back to being a beginner - waiting for perfect 12-16 knots cross-shore wind. Don't bother with onshore wind. The foil goes downwind too quickly when you fall off and you'll end up beached all the time. Just like the beginner kiters - don't forget to spend hours watching all the tutorial vids on youtube

Thank you everyone for all the useful information.

Looks like I've got some reading to do, videos to watch, and humble pie to eat for the first few sessions.

I think having directional experience will help in two areas:

- initially launching, you do still have a lot of back foot pressure just to get up with an almost immediate transfer to front foot pressure so the wing does not fly out the water.

- Going from either heal side to toeside or learning to swap feet.

Outside of that, it's a wildly fun and different experience from TT or Directional.

I started with the long mast and a gazillion crashes, so I bought the short mast and I did the short mast to long mast transition and it was very helpful.
Short mast decreased big crashes by 75%.

It's fun .... almost as good as kitesurfing in the waves.

You in Melbourne right?
You can listen/read to all the internet advise you want, or just come to the beach and get started.
There is specific tips and advise to be given at different stages that will make everything click.
If can ride a surfboard in light winds you have required skills.
Another hot tip for 0 hour foilers is to get a balance board, or anything similar to improve your leg response.
(You don't need to do anything special, but good tips and practice will speed up your progression and give you more confidence in early days, hopefully less slams too).
The biggest hurdle to foil is making the investment into gear, it's not cheap. But it will double your amount of kiteable days in Melbourne.

Hi polykarb,

Yes, in Melbourne, I'm south east bay side. Completely agree the only way to "learn" is get out there, but I'm certainly interested in others advice so can avoid any obvious pitfalls that aren't very obvious to beginners.
I might borrow a friends directional to smash a few sessions on that first before venturing near foil gear.

I'm reading mixed reviews on straps versus strapless for foils.... is it the same argument with directionals? Some like straps some don't?

I agree with what Kamikuza and Jonesey32 have said.

When your up on the foil board directional experience will have something to contribute but it helped me most when trying to position the board whilst waterstarting. Having experience waterstarting a directional will help waterstarting a foilboard.

Often not very much is said about the percentage of kite control that is required in the whole foil boarding equation. I found myself a couple of days ago talking to someone who was interested saying it was just like a directional but a meter off the water and movements are amplified 10 times

To get up and flying requires a tuned and constantly changing input of center of gravity and kite control. What worked for me was to just use the kite I would normally use in winds that are lowish but will still allow an easy relaunch. Your LW kiting skills will determine your safe lower limit, based on if you can relaunch or not. 15 - 17 knots with a 12m inflatable kite was perfect for me with my foil (Sroka). You may have seen alot of foil boarders using foil kites but they would usually be race guys and for freeriding inflatable is the go.

As you get more efficient at foil boarding a move to a smaller kite can work. I still tend to have my best sessions in 14-17knts with a 12m infatable.

Hopefully this thread and all foil-spoiled-soilers out there can just bugger off (inspiration from B.Joyce)

I think Coming off a wide raceboard with big fins defiently helps.. Sorta gives you the technique of riding the board flat especially downwind and the sensation of dragging the foil around when not up on it

Our demo 2016 Zeeko Alloy Foil will be fitted and ready to rock later today.
It is on an old directional kiteboard long enough and with a lot of nose rocker that means it is very forgiving for the nose dives. So instead of that causing a crash, you can keep going to try again.
The idea is that with our demo, anyone can give foiling a go to see if they want to go down that path
So watch the hookup section for where we plan to demo it or come down to 3Inlets country and have a try.

hi mate,catch up with the Graeme, Karl, Simon and the regular Melbourne foilers. They are experienced and you can demo a KFA Mako or Mk3 foil from them.I can pm you their details or join the Melbourne FB group.cheers

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RAL INN said..
Our demo 2016 Zeeko Alloy Foil will be fitted and ready to rock later today.
It is on an old directional kiteboard long enough and with a lot of nose rocker that means it is very forgiving for the nose dives. So instead of that causing a crash, you can keep going to try again.

That would be a good thing as the actual Zeeko foilboard doesn't seem to have any beginner friendly features like large nose rocker, highly angled bottom rails or high volume.

I'm at about 30mins or so now, had one proper go at it and by the end could dolphin around the place with the odd sustained glide. Would love to try it more but I'm not ready to invest in expensive foil gear.

I'm mainly writing because I wanted to reply to the people that are saying it's safer and easier to learn without straps.
While I agree it may be safer in the sense that you can completely jump from the board I don't think it's easier nor that much safer in the long run. I would recommend using straps but being very cautious of what you are doing. e.g. If you are off-balance and falling over just go with it and fall off, don't try and correct the foil and get jammed into it, I think that's really the only advice you need (besides just riding the thing around for a while not foiling first to understand how it feels).

My biggest hurdle was that it used muscles in my legs I don't seem to use for anything else, I'm an ace on one of those balance boards so I honestly don't think that does much for foiling haha (they are good for Skate balance however).

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snalberski said..

RAL INN said..
Our demo 2016 Zeeko Alloy Foil will be fitted and ready to rock later today.
It is on an old directional kiteboard long enough and with a lot of nose rocker that means it is very forgiving for the nose dives. So instead of that causing a crash, you can keep going to try again.

That would be a good thing as the actual Zeeko foilboard doesn't seem to have any beginner friendly features like large nose rocker, highly angled bottom rails or high volume.

Yes but with our setup we do have a trade off in more inertia and swing weight harder to transport and just plane extra weight.
Not sure about "high angle bottom rails" and while a bit of volume might help in very light wind stuff. For a Beginner such as I still am I prefer enough wind to have stable control of kite which I need to get the whole maneuvering board into start position thing working. Plus the moment I get up I am more focused on keeping board down and controlling lift, which I am sure the volume of the board is not contributing to.
Maybe in switching stance having some volume if you do it at zero speed may help but I like to switch when board is moving and stable.
The whole Nose dive thing seems to be a shortish phase, replaced by a continuous climb till foil breaks out. then coming down from there the extra nose stuff has very limited effect.
All in all I see the "beginner Friendly" things as a soft bridge over maybe 2 hours of Time On Water. So it may come down to a personal preference whether people see spending money on "beginner" aids or just start by getting an old 6' surfboard or similar, and attaching foil, then move on to a dedicated foil board in the style you wish to continue with.

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sir ROWDY said..

My biggest hurdle was that it used muscles in my legs I don't seem to use for anything else, I'm an ace on one of those balance boards so I honestly don't think that does much for foiling haha (they are good for Skate balance however).

I didn't find balance as big an issue as being able to quickly absorb changes in board height through my legs. I foil with legs bent and use them as shock absorbers to slow down or catch a climbing board and to drive it back down through front foot.

I also started to visualise my pivot pint at the wing in the water, rather than at my feet like I do on a directional. So my body more or less follows the angle of the wing.

I have about 15 hours into is so far and can now ride strapless, gybe and ride toe side. I like the whole idea of variable mast sizes when learning, it would have saved a lot of pain for me. Because of the many body slams, I could not practice more than 30 or 40 minutes at a time in the beginning. But it really is worth the pain. You have some really good advice here from all the other posters.

Thank you again everyone who's posted, the information here, and in that other threadnaught is awesome.

For some inspiration I watched some of the foil racing on Youtube....... wow!!!!! Thats a whole nother level.

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bigtone667 said..

sir ROWDY said..

My biggest hurdle was that it used muscles in my legs I don't seem to use for anything else, I'm an ace on one of those balance boards so I honestly don't think that does much for foiling haha (they are good for Skate balance however).

I didn't find balance as big an issue as being able to quickly absorb changes in board height through my legs. I foil with legs bent and use them as shock absorbers to slow down or catch a climbing board and to drive it back down through front foot.

I also started to visualise my pivot pint at the wing in the water, rather than at my feet like I do on a directional. So my body more or less follows the angle of the wing.

Agreed. Reminds me most of skateboarding over whoops (boobs) in a skatepark with speed, you kind of suck up your legs and let the board continue on it's own path to keep balanced and keep speed. However, as you say the pivot point for your body isn't the same, I think that's the biggest thing to get used to.

I agree with the shorter mast idea, I brought a 22 inch mast and used that in the beginning and progressed to the 30" within 3 sessions.
The short mast allows the board to bounce off the water instead of digging the nose in and wiping out.
Also I found a board with a bit of buoyancy made life much easier when launching, it seemed to hold the board in the right position to slip feet in and go.
I ride toeside strapped in and love it, I certainly think riding a surfboard helped with that too. I'm 80kg and ride a 9m kite in about 10 to 17 knots, I brought a BRM Cloud about a month ago and reckon it is the perfect foiling kite as it has 100% depower and can be flown with one hand easily and will stay up in 4 knots.
Pick your weather for your first sessions, Being over powered is not fun and you'll make better progress if the conditions are right, being under powered with a small kite will have it falling out of the sky unless it is a very light kite. As you get more experience you'll find that you can ride a far wider range of conditions with ease.

I disagree with the shorter mast idea, as I think it's unnecessary. Depending on your conditions, you'll "out-grow" it in a couple of sessions...

Double straps are ok so long as they're very loose, you don't hook your feet under them, and you commit to totally kicking the board off if you are getting out of envelope

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Thecopterdr said...
I brought a BRM Cloud about a month ago and reckon it is the perfect foiling kite as it has 100% depower and can be flown with one hand easily and will stay up in 4 knots.

I bought a full swag of Clouds and they make it very easy to dump power.

I am able to go in around 6 to 7 knots on the 17.

I had what I think is my most enjoyable foiling session ever this afternoon. On at least 2 occasions I was saying out loud "this is ****ing awesome!"

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snalberski said...
I had what I think is my most enjoyable foiling session ever this afternoon. On at least 2 occasions I was saying out loud "this is ****ing awesome!"

Yesterday I finally got to get up on foil and be able to stay there. Yes the pain and crashes are worth it for those arm pumping moments.
And I agree with Kami that short masts maybe a waste. I am thinking that the same time on normal length mast will get you there anyway.

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snalberski said..
I had what I think is my most enjoyable foiling session ever this afternoon. On at least 2 occasions I was saying out loud "this is ****ing awesome!"

sweet

Some interesting posts. I was busy with my third lesson today and there was a guy on a foil as well. He had a long mast but he was nose diving quite often. Even though i have absolutely no experience with this logic would make me say a shorter mast is better at first. Some of the guy's crashes made me cringe. So depends how much pain you are willing to endure I guess

I have front and rear straps on my board but I don't ride in them. I use the straps as handles to position the board for water starting. The board naturally wants to go downwind and the foil generates lift. You can get yourself in a position where the foil is going in one direction and the kite the other and you're the weak link in the middle trying to hang on. Having the straps means you can put your feet in and force the board into position for water starting.

I get into water start position then take my back foot out of the strap and place it in the middle of the board. The front foot stays in the strap but only as far as the toes. It's more a positioning thing rather than wedging my foot into the strap.

As everyone says, in the beginning you will do some "foil bombs" where you leave a big crater in the water. I found it was less impact to dive forward into the water. I have recently bought a helmet to reduce the battering on my ears, and because the consequences of foil/head contact are bit too nasty to think about.

As for short masts, I think the Slingshot set are US$170, so maybe $250-$300 in Australia. It you want to spend another $300 then go for it. Our experience shows that we are up and foiling and fairly in control after 6 hours on the water.

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Gorgo said..
I have front and rear straps on my board but I don't ride in them. I use the straps as handles to position the board for water starting. The board naturally wants to go downwind and the foil generates lift. You can get yourself in a position where the foil is going in one direction and the kite the other and you're the weak link in the middle trying to hang on. Having the straps means you can put your feet in and force the board into position for water starting.

I get into water start position then take my back foot out of the strap and place it in the middle of the board. The front foot stays in the strap but only as far as the toes. It's more a positioning thing rather than wedging my foot into the strap.

As everyone says, in the beginning you will do some "foil bombs" where you leave a big crater in the water. I found it was less impact to dive forward into the water. I have recently bought a helmet to reduce the battering on my ears, and because the consequences of foil/head contact are bit too nasty to think about.

As for short masts, I think the Slingshot set are US$170, so maybe $250-$300 in Australia. It you want to spend another $300 then go for it. Our experience shows that we are up and foiling and fairly in control after 6 hours on the water.

Of all the safety equipment, I think the helmet is a must when starting. I did have the foil conk me on the head in the beginning and left a white mark on the impact spot. Didn't hurt me, but could have. Also, as you mentioned, the battering of the ears. I used just one strap on the front foot to learn, but was super lose. Even so when I was trying my first carves to toeside I got hung up on it and could not kick it off. When I was learning to water start strapless with the paipo I struggled a bit trying to keep the board on edge while getting my feet into position, but one session sorted that all out. Bailing out when the speed gets too crazy I can just jump straight up and away from the foil.

I'm in two minds about loose footstraps and bailing from the foil.

I find the footstraps give me more control over the board, thereby avoiding some falls . I may revisit this view when I start working on tacking or gybing. When I started out I experienced the locked-in toes and fell over the board, fortunately only sustain some bruising.

I recently aborted at speed and looked back and saw the foil doing a backflip fortunately I was still skidding on my back pulled away by the kite, so there was some distance. Most times I am able to fall and drag the board alongside me by keeping my foot on the board or in the strap, making board retrieval and restart easy.

As for safety equipment - more is better. my helmet has a number of coloured marks on it, which I'm glad are not on my scalp! I went for a burn yesterday without my usual impact vest and think I may have cracked a rib when I smashed down onto the harness - never again.