Hi all,

with all the debates going on about self-rescuing techniques mainly wrapping lines vs not wrapping lines to get to the kite, I thought I'd give both methods a go today in strong wind conditions and deep choppy water. Spot was Pinnaroo Point in Perth, WA. Wind was cross-shore (Southerly) and gusting from 23 to 27 knots during both rescues. Kite used was Ozone Catalyst 2012, 10m. Both rescues began from the same exact location (yellow marker) 200m off-shore and were filmed and tracked by a GPS watch. (will post video later). Both Self-rescues were done with a board.

First method tried was the one involving wrapping the lines around the bar, exactly as per IKO standard. Once safety was activated and kite depowered, I easily and quickly got to the bar (which slid out to the stopper ball) and started wrapping the leash line around the bar and secured it with two half hitch knots (so far so good). Then began the difficult task of trying to wrap all lines around the bar ends. I honestly gave it my best shot but found it very hard to find the lines and gather them together to wrap them neatly around the bar as I was getting pulled by the kite. Even if it was in a flagging position the whole time it tended to lift a bit off the waves and some wind was catching underneath at times. I persisted to get it done right, but despite my best efforts couldn't do it very neatly. This caused a few bad tangles which later took a while to undo. Getting to the kite by wrapping the lines was a strenuous effort and I wasn't feeling very safe doing so, especially as it took 4 minutes until I got to it.



The tangles were so bad that I had to grab a different bar and went back out out for my second self-rescue attempt, this time without wrapping the lines around the bar.
From the same exact location as the first time, pulled the release, kite depowered, and started climbing the safety line with the board floating in front of me. kept climbing the safety line passed the bar, paying a minimum of attention to the lines (trying to move up aside of them) and avoiding to swim or kick my feet. Got to the kite in a total of 45 seconds with the board in hand. Yes there were a few lines around my body while I was holding the kite and sailing back in. Once back to the shore it took exactly 90 seconds to take the lines off my body, pull the bar downwind and be completely untangled and ready to go again.




In my 4 years of kiting experience these would be my 5th and 6th rescues. I only did two of them in strong winds before, both without wrapping the lines with similar success as the one today. The other rescues I've done were in light winds where I decided to wrap the lines around the bar (as I was shown during my lesson 5-6 years ago). Wrapping the lines was easy then (15 knots or less). In other words it's the first time I attempt wrapping lines around the bar in such strong winds.

Now, some of you may say I need practice wrapping the lines around the bar or maybe I should try a different method for wrapping them. You're probably right even thought I'm really wondering how many of you out there have done this easily with success in similar conditions as the ones I had today, without tangles and just a clean wrap of lines? Also, after my experience today I'm not sure if I even want to try wrapping my lines in strong winds again.

My worry is that the method of wrapping the lines is the main method instructors teach worldwide without teaching any other alternative method. With my experience today I can really understand why instructors won't allow the students to practice this method in strong winds and deep waters for the simple reason that their chance of success is very low. Honestly, would you let a student try this self-rescue method when you have a hard time demonstrating it properly yourself ? Probably not.

A demo on the beach or a practice in light winds is very different from the reality out there in strong winds. I'm starting to think teaching this method of wrapping the lines around the bar is a bit hypocritical, when the instructors knows the student won't be able to do it easily and therefore doesn't even give the student a chance to practice it in a real scenario in strong winds.

I know many are still convinced wrapping the lines around the bar is the universal method to use in any situation. I will happily accept that I'm wrong and/or that I don't have enough experience when a bunch of experienced kiters out there tell me they never had any difficulties wrapping lines around the bar in strong winds and choppy water.

hey cbulota,

thanks for the post, I was following the other thread and actually planning on doing something similar to what you did since we're not too far off from winter[].

Just a question, on your second attempt where you go up the centreline, do you release both safeties? or do you stay connected to your leash but release the QR?

Also, which self rescue technique would you recommend in the surf, because I can imagine that whilst method 2 seems to work really well in chop/flat water, in anything over 3 foot wouldn't that get dangerous? I have never done a self rescue in the surf, I have in deep water, but the wind dropped out so it was relatively easy to retrieve my kite (wrapped the 5th line around first, then all other lines as normal, etc)

cheers:)
elise

Not disagreeing with what you have done in flat water in cross on. But it is a totally different set of circumstances if the wind has swung offshore, (you may have to pack down), and negotiate a decent surf break. Those loose lines could kill you.

Interesting topic. To wrap or not to wrap...that is the question. Personally, one would consider either, depending on the place and conditions of self rescue.
Personally i have done both several times. Have used my line knife on one occasion where single line was wrapped around my ankle and prevented me from swimming, kite was being pulled by strong out going current.

If you have to pack down due to wind swinging off shore, you should get to your kite first and get the air out of the bladder asap. Then I would roll the lines in after the kite is no longer pulling you out to sea. After the lines are rolled in, and kite all bundled up with struts to keep it floating, swim or paddle in.
I have found through the self rescues that get to the kite first and dealing with the bar later to be the best result with least tangles. If there is a reef involved, and lines get hung up, the next option would be complete release, which if there is plenty of waves around is your best option anyway. (at least the safest generally speaking).
Both options have their merits. Know them both, practice them both, and be safe.

Cbulota, thanks for the effort to come up with this comprehensive comparison. Nice job!

Did you keep the lines on the downwind side of you when climbing your way to the kite? Would imagine that keeping lines downwind would reduce the chance of line tangle.

Charles, full credit to you mate. While lots of people on here bitch, moan and carry on, you are contributing to the safety and developing of the sport.

Everyone can form their own view on this and should in fact try both methods to work out the best for them when the **** hits the fan.

Even though you never looked up to say hello whenever I used to kite there at the circus, I appreciate you taking the time and effort to test out things like this and your videos on self landing various kits some time again are the best on the net...

It's an interesting topic, and this will vary between bar setups depending on flag out length.
The danger of not wrapping all your lines is that you might become tangled in them, and once that happens can go very pear shaped.

The couple of times I've had to do it I've pulled in a bunch of front line then able to wrap all remaining lines ok.

Also this will depend on kites, I ride fuels which have handles so once I've wound up all the lines safely I can grab corners of kite & use as a sail

My vote would be for people at least trying to wrap lines because even if you think you can hold onto a front line & pull the kite towards you it can be ripped out of your hands

Thanks Christian for an excellent description and good experiment. I teach the wrapping lines method, because I have to...generally when there's no wind and we're in shallow water! Clearly nothing like the real thing!

Did the bar have a front line reride (single flagging line) or short fifth line (both front lines "flagging") system?

Interesting thread cbulota - good on ya for forfeiting a couple of hours of what sounds like good conditions in the interest of research.

I have always struggled with wrapping lines in strong winds.

From your description sounds like there might be a hybrid option where you wrap the leash line and secure with with half hitches to decrease the chances of the kite powering up, then follow the safety line to kite without wrapping all the lines.

A couple of other points that might be helpful:

- when wrapping lines in stronger winds it is often easier to wrap them around the bar like a ball of string/toilet roll rather than end to end. There will prob be some \ tangling but I was surprised at how much quicker that method is when fighting chop and pull from kite

- in v strong winds some hybrids fly upside down on the flagging line, and get higher and pull harder as the lines get shorter (my 2010 Rally was particularly prone to this). Trying to go up the safety can lead to rope burn from the line (esp if it is a cold winters day and your fingers aren't as nimble as normal). In that case the 'ball of string' method can help as you can wind lines onto the bar by twisting the bar rather than pulling on the lines.

- if I am not wrapping lines, I familiarise myself where my linecutter is before starting up the safety line. I have never had to cut myself free (one close call when tumbled in waves albeit before I started a self-rescue), but hope I would commit to cutting before it got too late.

Thanks for the useful information. Really helps....I'm keen to give it a go next time I go out. Is there a huge risk with the lines tangling around your body and getting in trouble?? I'm a beginner starting out...

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rockykite said...
Is there a huge risk with the lines tangling around your body and getting in trouble?? I'm a beginner starting out...

Yes

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rockykite said...
Thanks for the useful information. Really helps....I'm keen to give it a go next time I go out. Is there a huge risk with the lines tangling around your body and getting in trouble?? I'm a beginner starting out...

Yes and if the wind picks up during the rescue and you are tangled and getting dragged it might not end so well. That's what concerns me: Once you are swimming between the lines you are committed and can't abort and ditch the kite.

CBULOTA - Xcellent and thank you.
1) for taking the time
2) for quality of review.

Me thinks I will go back to wearing sailing gloves. I made a habit of this when going to a shallow water lake with water launch/landing it made handling the lines in higher gusty winds easier during landing (=self-recovery) - always walked / pulled up lines to kite then drop the lines off the kite & then wind up lines.

My experience through 1m to 1+ m surf after a line wrap in v.light winds - I did not want to damage the kite - I successfully held onto 1 recovery handle on the kite (SS Rev) and body surfed on the back of my board - in much bigger conditions I would have dropped the kite outside the break.

A shame a number of harnesses are produced w/out knife pouches - my first 2 had both pouch and knife.

Cheers
AP

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rockykite said...
Thanks for the useful information. Really helps....I'm keen to give it a go next time I go out. Is there a huge risk with the lines tangling around your body and getting in trouble?? I'm a beginner starting out...

No, not a huge risk. Been wrapped. The panic is what might do more harm.

For example, if one steering line got somehow tangled on your harness while rescuing, the kite might power up and go into the loop (mind you, there are still kites out there with no leash attachment, riding one myself :)

And if really unlucky, one might go underwater for most of the time while kite is in the death loop.

I would have my cutter around...

Thats what worries me with this method, with all the people advising about the risk with lines tangling around the body. Even if the non-wrapping method is a bit quicker, I don't want to compromise safety.
Cbulota, I've read on other threads that you've advised to keep tension on one of the centre lines, not to kick and to pull yourself towards the kite. Doing so, does this eliminate any risk with the lines tangling around the legs or any other part of the body. It can obviously lead to disaster if the kite decides to power up whilst a line is wrapped around your leg....

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rockykite said...
Thats what worries me with this method, with all the people advising about the risk with lines tangling around the body. Even if the non-wrapping method is a bit quicker, I don't want to compromise safety.
Cbulota, I've read on other threads that you've advised to keep tension on one of the centre lines, not to kick and to pull yourself towards the kite. Doing so, does this eliminate any risk with the lines tangling around the legs or any other part of the body. It can obviously lead to disaster if the kite decides to power up whilst a line is wrapped around your leg....

When you pull the safety on the leashed kite, the lines will float everywhere. There is nothing you can do for some time, see:

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cbulota said...


.
.

I honestly gave it my best shot but found it very hard to find the lines and gather them together to wrap them neatly around the bar as I was getting pulled by the kite.

What the others think?

It is quite easy to wrap lines if the safety hasn't been release. Simply wrap a flagging line for a few metres then continue with the other three lines. Self rescues don't always call for the release of safety and many people go to suicide after launching anyway.

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bene313 said...
It is quite easy to wrap lines if the safety hasn't been release. Simply wrap a flagging line for a few metres then continue with the other three lines. Self rescues don't always call for the release of safety and many people go to suicide after launching anyway.

i think it is a method that everyone should try in highwinds or rough seas and make their own mind up . I for one after reading cbulota's method have switched to that way and won't change back to wrapping lines around the bar .

Get topic!

A couple things i picked up from self rescues.

1. Once i reach the kite, clip you safety to you board. Makes for one less thing to worry about.

2. Far easier to wind up lines once you have reached the kite. Also safer to wind up the lines to prevent them getting caught in shallow reef, sea weed, or even you... getting wrapped in lines going those wave impact zone can be dangerous, there have been a few posts of guys getting wrapped and near drowning.

3. With my kite inflated to 8psi no chance of bringing the wingtips together... instead I grab the shore side wing tip and then about 2 meter of line from the other wing tip, essentially turning the upside down kite into a sail... then body surfing your board as you would do with a upwind body drag, you can gain a fair bit of speed sailing your kite across the to the surface of the water and also get very near to a broad reach in your direction.

Great effort mate.

Ive done both sorts of self rescues depending on the beach. I am super keen on the safety issues of this sport. Id like to add a couple of things.

Any self rescue is difficult if not practiced, but is even more difficult if the kite is at its upper wind range.

In the surf, and on a surfboard, its quicker and causes less stress on equipment, sometimes to dump the kite, release your harness hook and surf a wave in, its experience. You beat it to the beach.

Kicking/swimming towards the kite takes tension off the lines and you wind in faster.

Once you get to the kite if using the non wrapped method, attach your safety to any loop on your leading edge, if you let it go you wont lose a finger.

Hey Andy - whats your technique to wind up your lines once you reach the kite such that I find I need two hands to do the line winding stuff ? I assume that its still fully inflated so lying on it or maybe? an elbow hooked over the leading edge ?
I'd have to admit that in 3 years on I have only tried to self rescue once and as mentioned its always at the most impossible time - I like the comment about winding the lines like fishing line rather than end to end which I find almost impossible even with 3 or more metres of depower line wound on first.

I have a question of clarification - "release the safety " and "release both safetys" Is the first comment meaning that the kite release is pulled so that you are now in full depower mode ( ie still attached by the safety leash?) and in the second instance - is this where the kite has been released and the safety leash is also let go (ie you are no longer attached to the kite beyond your grip on a kite line?)

Let's put things in perspective...
If it is not windy and u r not in a wave zone - choose preferred method. That = the majority of self rescues Say 70%.

In the surf zone - U dump kite or choose to get pulled in - no way R U wrapping or hauling lines. - Say 20 % of self rescues.

A very generous 10% of the time self rescues need to be performed your kite goes down and it is windy and u can't re-launch deep water - not in surf.
Now following good practise 9 + out of 10 times the wind has some onshore component - if U R getting hauled towards the shore
u can decide to stick with it till u get there without wrapping anything up - if U have your board with you then as Andy Hansen pointed out use it to help.
Of these 9+ times the majority UR likely to have you chicken loop attached / be riding suicide - with a board it is a straight forward drag to the shore / wave zone.
If it is windy and your kite is not pulling you (Not sure how but...) treat as a low wind rescue - read above....

The very small remainder = high wind and offshore - this is really an assessment of safety and expense - and how many people try to put themselves in this situation???
If U do without any other form of safety you are not really the target audience for this thread....

So - great thread - the building/reawakening of risk assessment is gold, but do not automatically assume the premise (wrap2kite / haul in2kite) is all there is when it is windy....

Cheers

AP

Unfortunately instructors will only be able to teach the method that is the safest. And this is the wrap technique. If you told a student to swim over the lines and they got tangled and died im sure someone could sue

Here are the self-rescue videos comparing each method. First video: wrapping lines around the bar, Second video: not wrapping any lines around the bar. As I had issues with the footage I had to reshoot both rescues the following day. This time the wind was blowing 20 to 23 knots, Cross-shore. Both self-rescues began from the same yellow marker 200m off-shore. Kite was Ozone Catalyst 12m 2012 in both rescues and both rescues done with the board.

The footage below is raw and unedited, just added a timer on the screen. Both videos start when the release is pulled and finish when the lines are untangled. I thought it would be a great opportunity for some to learn about line untangling skills without detaching the lines from the kite.

Self-rescue video 1: wrapping lines around the bar:





-0:03 : Activated the quick-release

-4:15 finished wrapping lines around the bar and grabbed the kite. Took 4 minutes to get to the kite. This time wrapping lines was a little bit easier with lighter winds and I did get a bit less tangles. But still it took me the same amount of time. I tried wrapping lines both around the bar ends and finished by wrapping horizontally around the bar as well. Not much difference in terms of difficulty with the kite still pulling when lifting a bit off the water (can see the kite in the video) and having to keep the board in my feet to free both hands. I think most beginners would have a very hard time to wrap the lines even in 20 knots.

4:50: started sailing

9:30: back to shore (about 4 minutes to sail 200meters back in)

10:25: Kite is secured and I begin to untangle lines

19:38: Lines are untangled (total of 9 minutes untangling time)

Self-rescue video 2: not wrapping any lines around the bar:



0:02: Activated the quick release

0:51 Got the kite in my hands and the board with me: 50 seconds to get to the kite. Notice when I pull myself to the kite following the safety line, the other lines are all floating on my right hand side. I just keep left as much as possible to avoid tangling myself in them while pushing the board in front of me. I also avoid swimming or kicking with my feet at all times during the whole rescue.

1:25: started sailing

6:35: back to shore (about 5 minutes to sail 200meters back in)

7:00 : kite is secured band I begin to untangle lines

9:32: Lines are untangled (total of 150 seconds untangling time)

I know the quality is average on those videos (too large uploads in HD) but you can still see the essential. I will work on a clean HD edit for a complete video tutorial on the self-rescue without wrapping lines and post it later.

Thanks for all your support everyone. It's great to see my post is not being trashed on for once.

Just to answer a few questions and clarify a few things, when choosing the method of not wrapping the lines around the bar:

-No need to disconnect the leash line. This would be dangerous especially at the early stages (before starting to go up the safety line). I guess there is no harm done if you disconnect the leash line once you get to the kite since you now have the kite in your hands and not likely to let go of it. Perhaps disconnecting the leash line when you get to the kite would minimize tangles..or tangle more? Don't know. Honestly I don't see much point in disconnecting the leash line.

-I don't know how many times I need to say it: don't swim and don't kick your feet...this will greatly minimize tangles. So please stop talking about swimming towards the kite and swimming in your lines, I would never recommend this to anyone.

-Any kite will automatically flag out if only one centre line is under tension and all other lines are slack. Works great and quick for kites using a single line safety system (like the Ozone kites) or a fifth line. With kites using both centre lines for safety it might be necessary to get to passed the bar then only pull one centre line to get the kite to flag out completely.

-When pulling on one centre lines all the other lines automatically go slack (unless all your lines are tangled together already, in a death looping scenario for example, this usually happens when the kiter didn't activate his safety early enough when tangles started ) this is what keeps the kite safe from powering back up or relaunching or death looping, etc., so as long as you don't let go your grip on the centre line, there is no chance whatsoever that the kite repowers up. Pulling yourself up the centre line is much easier than pulling the kite to you, plus you get a lot less tangles in doing so. There is not a whole lot of tension on the safety line so no need to panic or wear gloves. Just keep pulling yourself up and avoid stopping or pulling against the kite.

-Also note in the video that most tangles are avoided by not pulling yourself up over all the lines. When releasing the safety system, the kite usually goes a bit left or a bit right. Pull yourself up on the opposite side of where the kite fell. So if the kite and lines are mostly on your right (as in the second video) then pull yourself up on the left, you then avoid tangling in all the other lines.

-Bear in mind that if this method of not wrapping the lines was dangerous and we had many dramas with it in our school by teaching it, we probably wouldn't be teaching it anymore. I don't know since when exactly our school started to teach this method, but there must be at least over a 1000 students who successfully achieved this self-rescue method in any wind condition (yes we still have all students go out there and do it in 25 knots). Since I started teaching this method and working at this school (3 years ago) there has been ZERO incidents reported from using this method. The worst we've seen is bad tangles mostly from doing the complete opposite of what we prescribe (swimming, kicking, pulling the kite towards you (instead of pulling yourself to the kite), keeping the bar and lines in front and over you). Still with the very worst tangles, all students made it back to the shore safely and without needing external help.

-As for the pack down self-rescue (off-shore winds, no wind, deflated leading edge) I've shot a video showing the method described by Dafish and will post the tutorial on this soon.

-As far a wrapping lines around the bar I guess it could be a great idea if there was reef around or if you had to go through the surf. I don't have a lot of experience in the surf but I hear most guys kiting in heavy surf choose to release the whole kite when it goes pear shape. The kite will wash up back on shore and thus avoid pulling the kiter underneath the water (kite getting dragged by the waves) and damaging the kite in the process.

-So in conclusion get out there and practice both methods and see for yourself. There will be times when wrapping lines around the bar is easy and a preferable option...although I'm convinced for most times and especially for beginners and novice kiters not wrapping lines is a better, safer and quicker method in the majority of scenarios.

-Practice, practice, practice and educate people around you in the process is how we'll make this sport safer for everyone.

No one would dispute which is the fastest method. But that’s not the point. What is the safest method?
If you’re talking about teaching? it has to be wind the bar.

When your experienced do whatever you feel is best for the conditions. When teaching students, teach wind the bar.

I know schools don’t like to do it because it takes more time. It’s also true that the more windy it is the more of a pain it is to do a self-rescue, I have never done one in 25+ and I hope I never have to.

As I tell my students at the start of a self-rescue, Hey see that point about 400m downwind? that’s you that is! what can you do about it? Nothing! Will you be safe while you’re doing it? YES! So suck it up, chill out, trust in your ability and relax knowing no matter what happens; Zero amount of this 200kg breaking strain line is going to be wrapped around your body.

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vwpete said...
No one would dispute which is the fastest method. But that’s not the point. What is the safest method?
If you’re talking about teaching? it has to be wind the bar.

When your experienced do whatever you feel is best for the conditions. When teaching students, teach wind the bar.

I know schools don’t like to do it because it takes more time. It’s also true that the more windy it is the more of a pain it is to do a self-rescue, I have never done one in 25+ and I hope I never have to.

As I tell my students at the start of a self-rescue, Hey see that point about 400m downwind? that’s you that is! what can you do about it? Nothing! Will you be safe while you’re doing it? YES! So suck it up, chill out, trust in your ability and relax knowing no matter what happens; Zero amount of this 200kg breaking strain line is going to be wrapped around your body.

I partly agree /disagree. Wrapping lines around the bar would/could be the safest method if it could be achieved quickly and easily by anyone, anytime, any conditions (wind and water). My experiment proves that it's not the case in the conditions I had to self-rescue in.

If you look at the beginner progression videos and the IKO videos about the self-rescue, they are done in like 12 knots and calm, flat, shallow waters. Of course it's easy then.

I've seen countless people trying to wrap lines around the bar in strong winds, they are all drifting very far downwind (much further than I did) and getting back to the shore with many more tangles than I did.

When you teach a skill to a student it has to be achievable, otherwise what's the point? If one day all students who come out of their lessons can wrap lines well in strong winds easily, quickly safely during their self-rescue, I would say: yes you are right: wrapping lines around the bar IS the safest method. The truth is in panic a lot of them actually wrap lines without securing the leash line first...this is when it becomes far more dangerous than not wrapping lines. Kite starts death looping and the only option is to release the whole kite. Seen this happen many times.

The truth is also that to properly train a student to wrap lines in strong winds and deep waters it would take multiple attempts and you'd be spending most likely a whole 2h lesson if not more in doing so. Who does that? Do you?

thanks for the post cbulota
great to see the two methods, thanks for spending the time to do the video
ive found winding the lines a pain and think ill avoid it if i can. when you can sit on a surfboard to do the winding it makes it slightly less difficult as you can see everything rather than it being under water. if you end up coming in through some white water over reef its handy to have no excess line to jag onto the reef.
pick the best method for the situation

Fantastic contribution mate, well done. Funny enough I have never had to do a self rescue in 13 seasons until a couple of weeks back!! Very light on a 11m edge and skim board. As soon as the kite dropped I knew there was no chance of launching it in 8 knots!!

I did the wind up method (hadn't seen your post) and I can tell you even in 8 knots those bloody edges keep on a pulling!!

Plus the skim board was as buoyant as a dead fish with a lead sinker in its gut.

Now there was no instructor course and whatsit when I learnt hence this part was learnt purely by reading the net. But I was still as sketchy as on how to do it with minimal fuss.

Also when grabbing the race bridals the edge again pulls so hard my fingers nearly died. I like it how in the first one you. Wrapped the bridal around your footstraps for a while, looks a promising technique.

I also had to lay the skim on the actual kite, kept sinking sort of and falling behind me.

The wing tip is also a fair way away on the this high aspect kite, was a pain in the ass getting it on its back again!

Hey what about doing that safety wrap with half hitch, then pulling yourself up the middle line the safety runs to?

Ta for that...again great contribution.