What does all this mean and why should I care, as a kite surfer?


This table was for the North Rhino

Yes you should care.

Aspect ration is one of the major factors that give the kite its flying characteristics.

High aspect. Long and thin.
Are less immediately powerful, but generate more power per m2 when moving.
They have better upwind, go faster and have more lift, float and glide.
The turn slower and are have less depower at the bar when powered up.
They are harder to relaunch.
Race kite and big air kites are generally high aspect.

Low aspect kites. Short and fat.
Turn quickly, relaunch easily, have less less lift and float.
They have more depower a the bar.
They also drift down wind well
Wave kites and learners kites are typcially low aspect kites.


A medium aspect kite is a do it all kite that doesn't excell at any one feature but is pretty good at all off them.
Freeride/freestyle kites are usually medium aspect.

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Plummet said..
Yes you should care.

Aspect ration is one of the major factors that give the kite its flying characteristics.

High aspect. Long and thin.
Are less immediately powerful, but generate more power per m2 when moving.
They have better upwind, go faster and have more lift, float and glide.
The turn slower and are have less depower at the bar when powered up.
They are harder to relaunch.
Race kite and big air kites are generally high aspect.

Low aspect kites. Short and fat.
Turn quickly, relaunch easily, have less less lift and float.
They have more depower a the bar.
They also drift down wind well
Wave kites and learners kites are typcially low aspect kites.


A medium aspect kite is a do it all kite that doesn't excell at any one feature but is pretty good at all off them.
Freeride/freestyle kites are usually medium aspect.

Agree above except for "have less lift and float."

Long thin will jump high, but may come down fast, land harder, less float.

Most ( not all ) low aspect ( fat looking ) have more meat in the center so better float in the air, slower decent, softer landings but some can jump very high also.

A few side on photos of a flysurfer vs a slingshot fuel (of the same sqm) would help too, the flysurfer has soooo much "aspect" that the wind is hitting, the fuel comparatively little.

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KiteDesigner said..

Plummet said..
Yes you should care.

Aspect ration is one of the major factors that give the kite its flying characteristics.

High aspect. Long and thin.
Are less immediately powerful, but generate more power per m2 when moving.
They have better upwind, go faster and have more lift, float and glide.
The turn slower and are have less depower at the bar when powered up.
They are harder to relaunch.
Race kite and big air kites are generally high aspect.

Low aspect kites. Short and fat.
Turn quickly, relaunch easily, have less less lift and float.
They have more depower a the bar.
They also drift down wind well
Wave kites and learners kites are typcially low aspect kites.


A medium aspect kite is a do it all kite that doesn't excell at any one feature but is pretty good at all off them.
Freeride/freestyle kites are usually medium aspect.

Agree above except for "have less lift and float."

Long thin will jump high, but may come down fast, land harder, less float.

Most ( not all ) low aspect ( fat looking ) have more meat in the center so better float in the air, slower decent, softer landings but some can jump very high also.

That's not my experience at all. It's always been higher aspect kites giving more float more glide and softer landings...... But, the higher the aspect the more you must "fly" them.

The kite that give me the softest landings and best float is my Ozone chrono. Then followed by my edges, then catalyst, then ****tyest of all my kites for float is the reo.

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wishy said..
A few side on photos of a flysurfer vs a slingshot fuel (of the same sqm) would help too, the flysurfer has soooo much "aspect" that the wind is hitting, the fuel comparatively little.

Your talking projected aspect ratio. To be honest thats what its all about. A C kite thats stupidly high apsect still has a relatively low projected aspect ration compared to say a race foil kite.

Thanks Plummet, so what is too high, too low and middle aspect? What figures should I look for?

Yes I am considering the Chrono or the Sonic, but not for racing, but for freestyle and twin tip. Can't afford those foil boards yet

Hi ColoColo.

I can give you guidance as far the Flysurfer range is concerned.

The Sonic is our "full race" kite and has an AR of 6.75 in the smaller sizes and 7.0 in the larger sizes

The Speed 5 is our Big Air / Freeride foil kite and has an AR of 6.15 in all sizes.

The Boost 2 is our high performance LEI and has an AR of 5.5 and then 6.0 in the 15LW and 18LW editions.

Hope this helps.

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jamesperth said..
Hi ColoColo.

I can give you guidance as far the Flysurfer range is concerned.

The Sonic is our "full race" kite and has an AR of 6.75 in the smaller sizes and 7.0 in the larger sizes

The Speed 5 is our Big Air / Freeride foil kite and has an AR of 6.15 in all sizes.

The Boost 2 is our high performance LEI and has an AR of 5.5 and then 6.0 in the 15LW and 18LW editions.

Hope this helps.

To be fair compared to normal lei's those are super high aspect. Even the boost is relatively high aspect for an lei.

Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

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Plummet said..

jamesperth said..
Hi ColoColo.

I can give you guidance as far the Flysurfer range is concerned.

The Sonic is our "full race" kite and has an AR of 6.75 in the smaller sizes and 7.0 in the larger sizes

The Speed 5 is our Big Air / Freeride foil kite and has an AR of 6.15 in all sizes.

The Boost 2 is our high performance LEI and has an AR of 5.5 and then 6.0 in the 15LW and 18LW editions.

Hope this helps.

To be fair compared to normal lei's those are super high aspect. Even the boost is relatively high aspect for an lei.

That is very true - I am a bit out of touch with wave and free ride kites these days. Would they fall into the 4 to 5 range ?

High aspect far more Hang and float.

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eppo said...
High aspect far more Hang and float.

I'd say there is a bit of terminology confusion in comparing the two... A high aspect kite will glide better like a wing, so you can potentially travel further and longer in the air. A lower aspect kite has more 'pop' and will produce a more static float like a parachute.

If you know how to ride something like a chrono properly you can spend a long time in the air, but you're not going to win a height competition. Depends what floats your boat!

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BurkeyBoy said..
Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

If you can't jump on the ozone edge as well its because your flying it wrong!..... High aspect kites need speed. board and more apparent wind at the kite. If you fly it like your park it will be lacluster at jumping. But go as fast as you can hold and send it. Then let the bar out at the apex. Let the kite breath. That speeds up the kite on decent. Then bar in hard and redirect hard close to the water. You will land pillowy soft every time.

What you don't want to do is go slow. Send it back too far and hold the bar in the whole time. That will choke the kite down stall it out and give you crappy jump performance.

This is my favourite video of the first gen Chrono... those jumps look pretty high to me - high enough!

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BurkeyBoy said..
Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

Then i suggest you learn to fly properly (meaning to fly a high aspect kite in its upper third wind range and jump well, you need to know how to fly a kite properly) then take the edge out in winds where it matters, To be Quite frank. More Predictable Hey, safer you say...yeh sure in light winds....my higuest, longest jumps off an oceanic double head high wave, have still Not been beaten by myself on a 9m 30 knot days...@ 75kg.

Dont use them now, but damn those were scary sessions. Came in, couldn't speak for a few hours...lol.

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ColoColo said..
This is my favourite video of the first gen Chrono... those jumps look pretty high to me - high enough!

What you need to know is that high aspect foil kites are very technical and as a result, much more difficult to get high jumps on. Yeah videos like this are impressive and a good representation of what these kites are actually capable of, but just remember this is not easily achievable by your ''average'' kiter. Even kiters who are used to jump big on inflatable kites would struggle to replicate this in similar conditions.

Inflatable kites are far more user friendly and faster turning, which makes them ideal to learn to jump. Kiters are rushing into buying high aspect foil kites after watching videos like these only to realize that they are completely different than what they're used to and that they need to re-learn how to fly.

If you plan to get into flying foil kites, just be realistic with your expectations: expect a somewhat steep learning curve, scary overpowered moments, inverted kite, tangled bridles, tangled wing tips and long swims with an UN-relaunchable kite gradually filling up with water.

I wish I could afford one for ultra light wind hydrofoiling, but for the rest, I prefer inflatable kites.

Christian

agreed ^

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BurkeyBoy said..
Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

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ColoColo said..
Thanks Plummet, so what is too high, too low and middle aspect? What figures should I look for?

Yes I am considering the Chrono or the Sonic, but not for racing, but for freestyle and twin tip. Can't afford those foil boards yet

A high aspect foil kite (like the Chrono and Sonic you mentioned) is also very different to a high aspect LEI (like the one BurkeBoy mentioned). If you look at the difference between the 'projected area' of the Sonic 18m (below) vs the Rhino 18m in the chart you posted, you will see how big a difference there can be - 14.8m2 vs 10m2. The Rhino definitely wasn't a high aspect kite though... I just mentioned it to show how different the two styles can be.



However, which kite type of kite would be best for you would be determined by what type of riding you want to do and what wind range you usually have. You mentioned 'Freestyle' - but that is pretty broad. If you include unhooked/wake style as freestyle, then you want something lower aspect like the Parks. If it's insanely high and floaty jumps, heaps of hang time - then the newer high aspect racing foils are insane (like the Chrono or Sonic). However, the high aspect racing foils are not good for wake style/unhooked riding (you could still try, but that's not what they are made for).

Also, you mentioned hydrofoils - if you are considering them in the future, the foil kites are massively better for the hydrofoil (IMHO - the main reason I got the Sonic was for the Hydrofoil). We get a lot of days in the 6-10 knots range up here and these are sketchy to impossible to do with most LEIs. The 11m Sonic is magic in that range on the Hydrofoil.

There are plenty of other threads about the foil kites and their up/downsides, so I won't go into that here, but just be aware that the Chronos/Sonics are designed for racing first, and everything else they do is just a bonus. This means they aren't as user-friendly as other kites - even other foil kites - and they will punish you if you screw up.

I have two Naish Parks (BurkeyBoy mentioned them) - 12m and 9m - and a Flysurfer Sonic 11m. The Sonic is far and away better in terms of pure jumping height and hang time, like WAY better. It starts jumping high in much lighter winds than the Parks will as well. However, the Parks are WAY better for unhooked/wake style riding. They give more pop at lower speeds; when unhooked, they just bite in for you to load them up; and when you jump they are very predictable, stable, and float back nicely. They also kite loop predictably and without massively excessive power. I actually haven't tried a kiteloop on the Sonic, but I'm pretty certain it will try to kill me if I do...

Anyway, sorry... I just meant to chip in with support for the 'High aspect = Big Jumps' posts from Plummet and Eppo above...

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Plummet said..

BurkeyBoy said..
Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

If you can't jump on the ozone edge as well its because your flying it wrong!..... High aspect kites need speed. board and more apparent wind at the kite. If you fly it like your park it will be lacluster at jumping. But go as fast as you can hold and send it. Then let the bar out at the apex. Let the kite breath. That speeds up the kite on decent. Then bar in hard and redirect hard close to the water. You will land pillowy soft every time.

What you don't want to do is go slow. Send it back too far and hold the bar in the whole time. That will choke the kite down stall it out and give you crappy jump performance.

Yeah i agree with Plummet the ozone edges are awesome for jumping and have very soft landings.

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BurkeyBoy said..
Just agreeing on earlier comments. I have a high aspect kite, ozone edge, and a low aspect, Naish Park. The Park is so much better to jump. Good quick boost, hang time and controlled landings. I can't jump well on the ozone, but it is good for lighter wind days and long runs. My wife flies the edge as she feels safer on it. Predictable behavior.

I like the Edge for jumping in light winds and for going upwind effortlessly in light winds. My wife also likes it in the lower half of its wind range. I've had 2011, 12, & 13 Parks and found they jumped well when powered but not when underpowered (unlike the Edge).

I also can't jump the Edge well when it's really powered up. It's so slow to move to 12 or 11 and long before it gets there it already create some upward pull. This pulls me off my board edge. I've tried letting the bar out when I send it but I find that the resulting poo stance from having the bar out doesn't allow me to edge well either. There is obviously different technique to it. In any case I prefer that faster yanked up feeling that you get from sending a kite like the park

Yeh as has been said the edge requires expereinced technique to make it work in its upper range when you are really pumped to go big. Also being high aspect even better technique is needed when choppy, and or currents are at play.

But the rewards are worth it. If all I wanted to do is jump when nuked, go big and go long, then the edge will eat a kite like the park for breakfast. Not even in the same league.

But y have to be honest with your intentions and ability, water and wind conditions you ride in and what board you pair with it.

but it loops like sh1t lol.

thing I miss most is the edge taking your ass to the waters edge, not you taking the edge. you had better have ya board handy cause the kites not gonna wait for ya!! You know then it's brain bleed time.

What ya missing with this bollocks about the quicker parks it, then ya nuked you are moving the edge from 11 ish to 1130 at Most...its a real 'hold that edge of your board with a very quick and hardly noticeable back heel stamp', real quick like. gather all that mind bending apparent wind and use it.

have never liked any of the Naish kites, except one, the torch. That thing loops like a mother farqer.

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cbulota said..

ColoColo said..
This is my favourite video of the first gen Chrono... those jumps look pretty high to me - high enough!

What you need to know is that high aspect foil kites are very technical and as a result, much more difficult to get high jumps on. Yeah videos like this are impressive and a good representation of what these kites are actually capable of, but just remember this is not easily achievable by your ''average'' kiter. Even kiters who are used to jump big on inflatable kites would struggle to replicate this in similar conditions.

Inflatable kites are far more user friendly and faster turning, which makes them ideal to learn to jump. Kiters are rushing into buying high aspect foil kites after watching videos like these only to realize that they are completely different than what they're used to and that they need to re-learn how to fly.

If you plan to get into flying foil kites, just be realistic with your expectations: expect a somewhat steep learning curve, scary overpowered moments, inverted kite, tangled bridles, tangled wing tips and long swims with an UN-relaunchable kite gradually filling up with water.

I wish I could afford one for ultra light wind hydrofoiling, but for the rest, I prefer inflatable kites.

Christian

Ahhh... I saw this after I sent my post: this is spot on and what I wanted to say... I just re-read my post and it's a bit heavy on the 'foils are awesome' line (which they are for certain things). What cbulota wrote is pretty much exactly what you should expect if you've never used these types of kite before. If you can't keep your kite out of the water when you are eating sh@t, they are probably not the kite you want yet.

Also, with a foil you need to be pretty much self sufficient, as 95% of kiters have no idea how to launch or land a foil kite. You are usually better off doing self launch and self landing, so if that is not something you are comfortable doing, that's something to consider as well.

As cbulota said above, the foils excel in the ultra light stuff and for hydrofoils/raceboards, but once it's heading above 16-18knots I would usually be grabbing the inflatables too.

i have a bit of a theory going that the smaller the % the projected area the better it loops due to there being a larger area in the wings meaning more area during the loop. if only there was some cfd software that showed rotateing tethered objects rather then stationary ones. even all the f1 stuff is pretty static. this could mean some very very intresting developments in the acro pg and skydiver swooping world which would be nice for kites to give back to as people seem to forget we were the original canopy sport

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Jonesey32 said..

cbulota said..

ColoColo said..
This is my favourite video of the first gen Chrono... those jumps look pretty high to me - high enough!

What you need to know is that high aspect foil kites are very technical and as a result, much more difficult to get high jumps on. Yeah videos like this are impressive and a good representation of what these kites are actually capable of, but just remember this is not easily achievable by your ''average'' kiter. Even kiters who are used to jump big on inflatable kites would struggle to replicate this in similar conditions.

Inflatable kites are far more user friendly and faster turning, which makes them ideal to learn to jump. Kiters are rushing into buying high aspect foil kites after watching videos like these only to realize that they are completely different than what they're used to and that they need to re-learn how to fly.

If you plan to get into flying foil kites, just be realistic with your expectations: expect a somewhat steep learning curve, scary overpowered moments, inverted kite, tangled bridles, tangled wing tips and long swims with an UN-relaunchable kite gradually filling up with water.

I wish I could afford one for ultra light wind hydrofoiling, but for the rest, I prefer inflatable kites.

Christian

Ahhh... I saw this after I sent my post: this is spot on and what I wanted to say... I just re-read my post and it's a bit heavy on the 'foils are awesome' line (which they are for certain things). What cbulota wrote is pretty much exactly what you should expect if you've never used these types of kite before. If you can't keep your kite out of the water when you are eating sh@t, they are probably not the kite you want yet.

Also, with a foil you need to be pretty much self sufficient, as 95% of kiters have no idea how to launch or land a foil kite. You are usually better off doing self launch and self landing, so if that is not something you are comfortable doing, that's something to consider as well.

As cbulota said above, the foils excel in the ultra light stuff and for hydrofoils/raceboards, but once it's heading above 16-18knots I would usually be grabbing the inflatables too.

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eppo said..
Yeh as has been said the edge requires expereinced technique to make it work in its upper range when you are really pumped to go big. Also being high aspect even better technique is needed when choppy, and or currents are at play.

But the rewards are worth it. If all I wanted to do is jump when nuked, go big and go long, then the edge will eat a kite like the park for breakfast. Not even in the same league.

But y have to be honest with your intentions and ability, water and wind conditions you ride in and what board you pair with it.

but it loops like sh1t lol.

thing I miss most is the edge taking your ass to the waters edge, not you taking the edge. you had better have ya board handy cause the kites not gonna wait for ya!! You know then it's brain bleed time.

What ya missing with this bollocks about the quicker parks it, then ya nuked you are moving the edge from 11 ish to 1130 at Most...its a real 'hold that edge of your board with a very quick and hardly noticeable back heel stamp', real quick like. gather all that mind bending apparent wind and use it.

have never liked any of the Naish kites, except one, the torch. That thing loops like a mother farqer.

Yep these blokes hit the nail on the head.

I too use high aspect foil sub 20 then move to lei 18+

The highest i have been sub 20 knots without a doubt is flying the 12m chrono V1. That thing has brutal take off when fully powered. It tears you off the water like a slingshot. I remember one time that was just mental. Fricken hard to hold an edge when its that powered. As Eppos says, stop the **** out of that back foot. Also you fly so far you have to be sure of enough down wind landing room. Many times I travelled so much further than expected. Landing on the beach a few times.

The highest I have been ever is on the 10m edge 28-30 knots cross shore hitting a 1.5 head high take of ramp with perfect clean flat water run up. Jeeeesus that was nose bleedingly high.

Thanks guys! You all know your stuff, which makes this forum so great. I really appreciate it.

But we are digressing a bit.

What is Area Projected vs Area Flat and how do you calculate the aspect ratio of kites?

I imagine Area Flat is literally the kite flat and the surface area of every panel added together

Area projected is when it's in the air?

I guess what I am after when I shop around for kites, is to know more than just the size and style of kite (yes mainly for freestyle hooked tricks - I am intermediate still). Yes I want good big jumps with floaty landings (when done right!) but I also want to loop the kite.

Ok I know that will short list things a bit, but I would still like to walk into a store and look at their kites and go... hmmm aspect ratio X, yep that's the one for me.

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ColoColo said...
Thanks guys! You all know your stuff, which makes this forum so great. I really appreciate it.

But we are digressing a bit.

What is Area Projected vs Area Flat and how do you calculate the aspect ratio of kites?

I imagine Area Flat is literally the kite flat and the surface area of every panel added together

Area projected is when it's in the air?

I guess what I am after when I shop around for kites, is to know more than just the size and style of kite (yes mainly for freestyle hooked tricks - I am intermediate still). Yes I want good big jumps with floaty landings (when done right!) but I also want to loop the kite.

Ok I know that will short list things a bit, but I would still like to walk into a store and look at their kites and go... hmmm aspect ratio X, yep that's the one for me.

Your right abiut the flat is when canopys deflated and flat out thats its profile. Projected area is like if you have it pumped and just 1 light source above it it would be the area of the kites shadow. So any material that is below itself on the same axis will not cast any shadow yeah? Hard to explain in words super easy in person. Basicly this means the projected area lets say 6 sq meters when laminer flowing air passes over it then you will have 6sqm lift even if the kite is 10sqm flat so there is 4 square meters of wing tip or vertical canopy

walked into a shop....hmmm aspect ratio X, yep that's the one for me...



Yeh if you went into a shop and that was your deciding factor then you might be disappointed.

Most brands have their higher aspect 'Jumping' kite if you will.

Then it comes down to the brands 'feel'. Does it agree with you.? Every brand has its own unique 'feel' characteristics that can only be discovered by riding them. That comes down to bridles, no bridles, pulleys, no pulleys, kite geometry etc etc.

You say you want to 'loop'. What kind of 'looping' are you talking about?

All kites will 'loop' but the more seriously powered the loop, think 'king of the air if you must', the more C you want in your kite.

You can't have it all. With one hand it giveth' with the other it taketh' away.

I suggest your focus on aspect ratio to be way down the list in priority regarding choosing a kite. Aspect ratio is implicit in its design, but works with all the other attributes of a kite. Ridden plenty of so called high aspect kites that are pigs (relatively) for all round jumping style freeridin..for me anyway.

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ColoColo said..

What is Area Projected vs Area Flat and how do you calculate the aspect ratio of kites?

I imagine Area Flat is literally the kite flat and the surface area of every panel added together

Area projected is when it's in the air?

I guess what I am after when I shop around for kites, is to know more than just the size and style of kite

Aspect ratio is simply wing span (distance from wing tip to wing tip) Divvied by the Chord (distance from leading edge to trailing edge). If you want the more detailed explanation: www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/geom.html

Projected area is the surface area of the kite that is exposed to the wind when the kite is flying where as area flat is as you said: the surface area of the kite when laid deflated and flat on the ground.

This may come as a surprise but manufacturers are known to lie about kite measurements starting with kite size. It's a common hidden marketing practice that's been around for a long time. So you may think, for example, that the 7m you bought has more power than your friend's 7m, only to realize from measuring it that it's much closer to an 8m than a 7m.

All this tech stuff is nice to know, but really as Eppo said you can't have it all and at the end of the day it comes down to the way the kite feels to you when you're flying it. Seize any kite demo opportunities and borrow as many kites as you can, then see what works best for you. The rest is just numbers, and numbers aren't always accurate anyhow

If you're actually upgrading from a North Rhino...get ready to be super stoked flying just about any popular modern kite model

Christian

You walk in a pub
There's a guy he's a 50 year old john bon jovi lookalike, he's chatting up the young chicks
But hasn't a furkin chance
That's a high aspect kiter
Then over in the corner there's 2 sus looking blokes drinking cocktails, theses are mid aspect
Kiters
Then you go for a piss and there's a bloke banging some hot chick in the cubicle with the door open, he's a c kite rider
That's about it

bahahaha classic...