Hi folks I had an incident tonight where I had to release Qr1
to flag kite out close to the beach as there was no where safe to land and I was heading down wind cross shore after losing my board after using the qr the bar went out of reach but the kite would not flag out ,it actually powered up I had to pull myself up the centre line to get hold of the bar again as I was getting dragged towards the rocks on the beach and was getting tea baggged badly ,I tried crashing the kite to help it flag out but nothing would work crashed it into water on both sides of the wind window and just got dragged around after a few minutes I had to release the whole kite as I was heading towards rocks in the water
the kite is a 2013 cabrinah chaos with flag out on both front lines not single line ,is there's a way to help kite flag out in this situation I am going to get rid of this gear and go to single front line flag out

Aim the kite at a tree, most cab riders seem to do this??.

On a serious note though, what was stopping it from flagging out ????

Good work hitting your leash and releasing
people learn to let go of the bar but hesitate when releasing their "investment"
too many twists in the lines?

If your kite is still floating about be sure to contact the water police so they don't waste time looking for your corpse
Water Police Squad and Rescue Coordination Centre
100 Nelson Place
Williamstown, VIC, 3016
Phone (03) 9399 7500 (24 hours)

I had a situation a couple of weeks ago where the lines wrapped around the bar. This disallowed the bar from traveling towards the kite enough to allow it to flag. I was attached to the kite with one line and a kite that was powering up and looping. This didn't last too long as the force on the single line was enough to make it snap and my kite fly away.

Given you pulled yourself up to the bar again, this might have helped?



Can't say why your kite didn't flag out though. What happened? Did it sit on the water powered? Still flying in the air?

Had a switchblade years ago and hated the 2 line flagout, it's unsafe.

Thanks for all of the replies
I can assure all that there were no twists in lines i remember running the lines perfectly part two of the story is as follows
After releasing my kite (i crashed it as i released it hoping this might keep it in the water) i swam for shore and had to run a k or so over rocks in bare feet to catch up with kite which had settled on the water and appeared to be snagged by the bar swam out to it disconnected bar and let it down as i dragged it in then swam back out managed to find bar and drag it in with a heap of seaweed ,luckily i had written my number on my board and got a call an hour later
So i went from losing it all to getting it all back
But i really dont want to use it again as i am convinced it is a bad system they obviously went to single line the following year for a reason ,bad luck to all of their existing customers i guess ,i really think there should be a retro fit fix or a recall after what i dealt with

Super glad you are okay. And it's great you let your gear go. Seen way to many people hang on too long and pay the price. Single flagging lines are really the only way to go and I believe most companies have gone away with the two center line flagging. I guess that in your situation and you were able to crash the kite, you could have tried wrapping a steering line around your bar quickly enough before it relaunched to act like an old "oh ****" handle. Problem always is when kite powers up briefly. Ir wrapped and held like a fishing pole then you can manage the kite someone, it not you have to let go again. This scenario takes a little time, and judging by what you said was that you were headed towards rocks so you had little time to act. Punching out was the best option.
Good that you got the gear back, but I too would be looking at a new bar set up as I really only trust a true flagging single line.

Some info here on other people with Cab flag out problems.. might help.
kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2387057

Hi iggy,
Dual flag lines are definitely do not depower as well as single lines. I had an issue with my dual flag line this week in very strong gusty wind. Had to release QR to sort a kite inversion but released lines got caught on centre line twister & wouldn't depower. Thankfully I was able to stall the kite using that Russian blokes video technique & self rescue to the beach.
Many thanks for that video.

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marno said..
Had a switchblade years ago and hated the 2 line flagout, it's unsafe.

Yeah, when it works right it's GREAT, especially for self-landing (kite just flops over perfectly onto its nose) but in cases where it doesn't work, it's a nightmare

Sell the kite. Double front safety is stupid. Get single line flag out or 5th line safety.

In that instance i'd pull the secondary safety and let the kite loose. Don't f#ck around trying to recover the kite.
Ditch the kite and swim in. Kites can be fixed a whole lot easier than you can be fixed.

Maybe updating from 2013 gear would be nice.
but something must have stopped the bar sliding all the way.

Its great that you are sharing these things, it might save someone else from a world of hurt! As a few other posters have raised, this is an issue that can and does occur with a 2 line flag out system.

If you have pulled the QR and your kite is still powered, then ditching the kite is almost always your best option rather than being connected to a powered kite with no control. While it is something that can be resolved if you are supremely confident, odds are higher that you will end up tangling yourself or wrapping a powered line around a body part.

Good move letting it go.

And by the sounds of it, I'd be binning it. I wouldn't want to sell it for a couple of hundred on gumtree to have some fool kill themselves with it. Or kill some poor innocent bystander.

Having been in the 2006/7 Switchblade era the IDS system seemed like a great leap forward. Obviously a single line flagout is much safer, but imo slightly trickier to reconnect while in the water. The big advantage of the single flagout is the ability to have a much lower Y, and easier access to front lines.

Many times I got in trouble the IDS did not fail, although it could be said the kite stlil bounces up and down in strong winds, but this happens with a single line flagout too.

Would it be fair to say the flagout line got jammed in the plastic mainline tubing due to salt/sand/grit? This jamming can just as easily occur with a single flagout line. I get second hand bars and when I check them I always check the safety and often find the flagout line is jams and needs a bit of WD40 to get it working smoothly. Something to be said to check your safety system everytime you go out.

I upgraded to the 2015 Cabrihna bar for the new safety features, the old bar was a pain in the arse to reset if you do pull the safety - I think the bars after 2015 are single line flagging?

Not sure if the Chaos might also be helping with the trouble there? My Drifter which is more of a C shape kite always wants to get back up in the sky - great when out kiting but can make self landing harder.

Anyone have any contacts with Cabrinha? From speaking to the reps from North, Best and Ocean Rodeo, their older kites are compatible (to an extent) with the newer single line flag out bars. E.g. 2012 onwards North kites will flag out properly with the newer 2015 onwards 4 line bar.

You may be able to just change to a newer cabrinha bar (e.g 1X bar)that has single line flag out and solve your issues without getting rid of the kite. I think the Y split on the older bar changed to a V split though so you may notice a slight difference in the kite feel but that could be a workable solution for you? Cab state the 1X bar should be compatible back to 2009 (?).

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RosieKB said..
I upgraded to the 2015 Cabrihna bar for the new safety features, the old bar was a pain in the arse to reset if you do pull the safety - I think the bars after 2015 are single line flagging?

2014 had the first 1X single line flagout but with the annoying hard-to-reset quicklink of 2012-13.

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weebitbreezy said..
You may be able to just change to a newer cabrinha bar (e.g 1X bar)that has single line flag out and solve your issues without getting rid of the kite. I think the Y split on the older bar changed to a V split though so you may notice a slight difference in the kite feel but that could be a workable solution for you? Cab state the 1X bar should be compatible back to 2009 (?).

I think you can use the 1X on any kite even earlier than 2009. The lower Y or V split helps with low end power.

I have heard there are some issues with the single line flagout not working properly either

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weebitbreezy said..
Anyone have any contacts with Cabrinha? From speaking to the reps from North, Best and Ocean Rodeo, their older kites are compatible (to an extent) with the newer single line flag out bars. E.g. 2012 onwards North kites will flag out properly with the newer 2015 onwards 4 line bar.

You may be able to just change to a newer cabrinha bar (e.g 1X bar)that has single line flag out and solve your issues without getting rid of the kite. I think the Y split on the older bar changed to a V split though so you may notice a slight difference in the kite feel but that could be a workable solution for you? Cab state the 1X bar should be compatible back to 2009 (?).

Yeah, I bought my son a 2015 Cab Radar 5m and his bar works great on my 2010 Switchblade, tried the single line flag out and it works perfectly. I did notice however after demonstrating a "self rescue" the single flagging line was hard to pull through the centre tube, seemed like the knot was jamming up ..... will have to test it again before I head out I think.

As Gateman just mentioned there is a knot a short way up the centre line that flags out and it can be a pain pulling it back through the centre tube. This knot is necessary as it hits a "stopper" just below the metal Y and sets the centre line length. The good news is that it has never failed to easily flag out. Though I do suspect that all that continual catching on the centre tube may prematurely wear the knot and cause it to fail. (2015 bar)

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Gateman said..

weebitbreezy said..
Anyone have any contacts with Cabrinha? From speaking to the reps from North, Best and Ocean Rodeo, their older kites are compatible (to an extent) with the newer single line flag out bars. E.g. 2012 onwards North kites will flag out properly with the newer 2015 onwards 4 line bar.

You may be able to just change to a newer cabrinha bar (e.g 1X bar)that has single line flag out and solve your issues without getting rid of the kite. I think the Y split on the older bar changed to a V split though so you may notice a slight difference in the kite feel but that could be a workable solution for you? Cab state the 1X bar should be compatible back to 2009 (?).

Yeah, I bought my son a 2015 Cab Radar 5m and his bar works great on my 2010 Switchblade, tried the single line flag out and it works perfectly. I did notice however after demonstrating a "self rescue" the single flagging line was hard to pull through the centre tube, seemed like the knot was jamming up ..... will have to test it again before I head out I think.

There is a stopper knot (not sure exactly why) but the power of the kite is enough to pull it through. When resetting the QR you won't get the depower line back through the CL assembly until the kite is launched which gives it enough pull in order to pull through the depower line. I get nervous launching a kite with the depower line still hanging out but it works.

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2old2quit said..
As Gateman just mentioned there is a knot a short way up the centre line that flags out and it can be a pain pulling it back through the centre tube. This knot is necessary as it hits a "stopper" just below the metal Y and sets the centre line length. The good news is that it has never failed to easily flag out. Though I do suspect that all that continual catching on the centre tube may prematurely wear the knot and cause it to fail. (2015 bar)

Unless you plan to use the QR 10 x per session I wouldn't worry about wear, I would be more concerned about it jamming up through under-use.

Some good input in this thread already.

Dual front line safety systems are almost out of the market now, however, a few brands still make them (F-One, Zian and perhaps a few others). Simply put, dual front line will flag your kite most of the time but not all the time. In general, the further the bar slides out and the stronger the wind, the more likely dual front line safety will work (provided there are no tangles around your kite/bar/lines).

It's important to understand the difference in terminology between Depower and Flagging (spartacus). Depower means you simply reduce the angle of attack of the kite (bar out or trim in) and that the kite can still be flown or power up at any time. Flagging means the kite has no chance to power up and that the kite's canopy is not exposed to the wind

I did lots of testing on safety systems and tried to recreate a few common scenarios such as a bridle tangle/kite inversion. The results were pretty clear, dual front line safety won't flag the kite if one of your bridles is wrapped around the wing tip, not only that but it will most likely send your kite in a death loop. On the other hand, single front line and fifth line safety still work, even when either bridle is wrapped around the wing tip.

Even though professionally modifying your dual front line to a single front line safety would be the best option, There is a very simple workaround for dual front line safety systems in the scenario described by the OP: Once you have released the QR and the kite isn't flagging, simply walk a few quick steps FORWARD (towards the kite). to allow your back lines to get some slack. This will roll your kite and allow it to flag, get the tension back on the safety line and proceed to recover your kite, self-rescue, whatever.

Of course in deep water that's more problematic as swimming towards the kite in high winds won't really work so well.

As jackforbes said, don't be afraid to release your kite completely at the early signs of safety systems failure, this reflex could save your life. SOOOO many people hang on and don't want to release the kite when this happens.... It's simply not worth hanging on to a death looping kite, let it go!

If it can encourage anyone to release their kite completely in such scenarios, I can tell you that I've never seen or heard of any kite that got damaged after a full release, and I've seen lots. When on land, a full release will make your kite tumble a few times and then secures itself, it typically doesn't go very far either.

Christian

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cbulota said..
Some good input in this thread already.

Dual front line safety systems are almost out of the market now, however, a few brands still make them (F-One, Zian and perhaps a few others). Simply put, dual front line will flag your kite most of the time but not all the time. In general, the further the bar slides out and the stronger the wind, the more likely dual front line safety will work (provided there are no tangles around your kite/bar/lines).

It's important to understand the difference in terminology between Depower and Flagging (spartacus). Depower means you simply reduce the angle of attack of the kite (bar out or trim in) and that the kite can still be flown or power up at any time. Flagging means the kite has no chance to power up and that the kite's canopy is not exposed to the wind

I did lots of testing on safety systems and tried to recreate a few common scenarios such as a bridle tangle/kite inversion. The results were pretty clear, dual front line safety won't flag the kite if one of your bridles is wrapped around the wing tip, not only that but it will most likely send your kite in a death loop. On the other hand, single front line and fifth line safety still work, even when either bridle is wrapped around the wing tip.

Even though professionally modifying your dual front line to a single front line safety would be the best option, There is a very simple workaround for dual front line safety systems in the scenario described by the OP: Once you have released the QR and the kite isn't flagging, simply walk a few quick steps FORWARD (towards the kite). to allow your back lines to get some slack. This will roll your kite and allow it to flag, get the tension back on the safety line and proceed to recover your kite, self-rescue, whatever.

Of course in deep water that's more problematic as swimming towards the kite in high winds won't really work so well.

As jackforbes said, don't be afraid to release your kite completely at the early signs of safety systems failure, this reflex could save your life. SOOOO many people hang on and don't want to release the kite when this happens.... It's simply not worth hanging on to a death looping kite, let it go!

If it can encourage anyone to release their kite completely in such scenarios, I can tell you that I've never seen or heard of any kite that got damaged after a full release, and I've seen lots. When on land, a full release will make your kite tumble a few times and then secures itself, it typically doesn't go very far either.

Christian

You always offer great advice.....seriously. I try and enforce this concept about releasing the kite before it's too late while people try desperately to save their kite. My advice is always the same. Kites are cheap compared to the loss of life or serious injury. All kites can be repaired easily. It's only a kite

While we are all spruiking the benefits on a single flagout line, another problem with them is that one of the front lines will stretch ("shrink less") than the other eventually causing the kite to fly slightly to one side. Easy fix by re-tuning lines but how many people do that regularly?

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HighzaKite said..
While we are all spruiking the benefits on a single flagout line, another problem with them is that one of the front lines will stretch ("shrink less") than the other eventually causing the kite to fly slightly to one side. Easy fix by re-tuning lines but how many people do that regularly?

that's very true. it's all about pro's and con's really, anything to do with kite equipment is like that, whenever there is an advantage there is a disadvantage.