Hi All,
As a fairly new comer to kiting I am trying to decipher the pros and cons of having a high or low v for lines. Seems to be a point of difference to make people buy a bar that matches the kite brand from what I can gather.
Am I missing something.

Yes there is a difference, but it's probably negligible. These days, everyone is doing single front line safeties so high-Y is kind of seen as a throwback design.

Buy the bar that matches the kite. Most companies are moving towards an industry standard of equal length lines, pigtails loops/knots and depower throw... but not all.

Given equal line length, the only difference is in larger kite sizes (12+). There was a thread about this earlier. The V changes the angel of the front lines to the kite, but that is negligible with smaller sizes. BTW, it is very easy to make a a V bar to a traditional bar and back. I made up a simple method for myself from a midsize ball.

Interested to hear your method. I'm guessing you used a rubber ball of some type , drilled a hole in it and threaded the lines through. It'll be handy for me as I run one brand bar on multiple kites

This has been covered before, the higher V Holds the leading edge in the shape it was designed for according to how the bridals are set up. Generally if you use a low V bar on a kite that was designed for a high V, the kite will tend to be flatter.... this may improve low end but reduces high end (stronger wind) performance as well as turning ability. Kite will fly but not like it should. The reverse is true for kites that were designed for a low V, the higher V prevents them from flaring out to their full profile so reduces low end grunt but could speed up turning speed if the design works with it. Some kites are slow pigs on a high V. Duotone do an adjustable V splitter connection that might work for you on all your kites. Worth playing around with.

It always looks like a pain for self landing with a high V, but as they said you need to use the V with what the kite intended to be used for. It makes the kite perform so poorly if you don't.

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Nathe said..
Interested to hear your method. I'm guessing you used a rubber ball of some type , drilled a hole in it and threaded the lines through. It'll be handy for me as I run one brand bar on multiple kites

Hi Nathe,
This is the photo.
I use a new North (low V) bar with my Duotone Neo's. On the bar, each line is spliced together from two somewhere in the middle. The ball has a screw hole on the side. Through that I I tided the ball to one of the lines at the splice so on that line the ball does not move and act as a stopper. The other line is simply runs through the main hole freely. If I fly a low V kite, I simply pull out the second line from the hole.

On a bar without the splice in the middle, there needs to be some trick to fix the stopper to one of the lines to prevent sliding.

It might be important for powered up riding to put an extension pig tail to the front lines. It is because the angle in the front lines reduce the angle of attack on the kite (act as shorter front lines, slightly de-powering the kite), I haven't done that, as I have been mostly on waves without boosting, but I will. This may need some calculation and fiddling with the length of the extension, but I don't think it will be a headache.

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Andrash said..

Nathe said..
Interested to hear your method. I'm guessing you used a rubber ball of some type , drilled a hole in it and threaded the lines through. It'll be handy for me as I run one brand bar on multiple kites

Hi Nathe,
This is the photo.
I use a new North (low V) bar with my Duotone Neo's. On the bar, each line is spliced together from two somewhere in the middle. The ball has a screw hole on the side. Through that I I tided the ball to one of the lines at the splice so on that line the ball does not move and act as a stopper. The other line is simply runs through the main hole freely. If I fly a low V kite, I simply pull out the second line from the hole.

On a bar without the splice in the middle, there needs to be some trick to fix the stopper to one of the lines to prevent sliding.

It might be important for powered up riding to put an extension pig tail to the front lines. It is because the angle in the front lines reduce the angle of attack on the kite (act as shorter front lines, slightly de-powering the kite), I haven't done that, as I have been mostly on waves without boosting, but I will. This may need some calculation and fiddling with the length of the extension, but I don't think it will be a headache.

Wouldn't it be even easier to just use a short pigtail through the line junction, around the other line, then hitch back onto itself? No hard/sharp edges to wear the lines, and could potentially adjust the distance between the lines? Just a thought...??

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Sandyknickerz said..

Andrash said..

Nathe said..
Interested to hear your method. I'm guessing you used a rubber ball of some type , drilled a hole in it and threaded the lines through. It'll be handy for me as I run one brand bar on multiple kites

Hi Nathe,
This is the photo.
I use a new North (low V) bar with my Duotone Neo's. On the bar, each line is spliced together from two somewhere in the middle. The ball has a screw hole on the side. Through that I I tided the ball to one of the lines at the splice so on that line the ball does not move and act as a stopper. The other line is simply runs through the main hole freely. If I fly a low V kite, I simply pull out the second line from the hole.

On a bar without the splice in the middle, there needs to be some trick to fix the stopper to one of the lines to prevent sliding.

It might be important for powered up riding to put an extension pig tail to the front lines. It is because the angle in the front lines reduce the angle of attack on the kite (act as shorter front lines, slightly de-powering the kite), I haven't done that, as I have been mostly on waves without boosting, but I will. This may need some calculation and fiddling with the length of the extension, but I don't think it will be a headache.

Wouldn't it be even easier to just use a short pigtail through the line junction, around the other line, then hitch back onto itself? No hard/sharp edges to wear the lines, and could potentially adjust the distance between the lines? Just a thought...??

I think the issue then is that amsteel has a low melting point and would burn through itself. A tiny low friction ring would be the ticket

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Sandyknickerz said..
Wouldn't it be even easier to just use a short pigtail through the line junction, around the other line, then hitch back onto itself? No hard/sharp edges to wear the lines, and could potentially adjust the distance between the lines? Just a thought...??

Yes, I think it would work, but the junction of the spliced lines may not slide easily in the pigtail if the safety is released under tension. I chose the ball, also because I needed a stopper. The V side end of the ball is smooth, so no wear of the line.

You can make a low or hi V adjuster out of a bicycle wheel sensing magnet like this...

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Feed the two front lines through the middle and you're set to go. Your bar can have the best of both worlds! #oils

I would be trying out a stainless ring, or a low friction ring, and splicing a Prussic loop to attach it.

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NorthernKitesAUS said..
You can make a low or hi V adjuster out of a bicycle wheel sensing magnet like this...

&f=1&nofb=1
Feed the two front lines through the middle and you're set to go. Your bar can have the best of both worlds! #oils

Looks like a line cutter.

Thanks for the info. Is there any pros and cons for either one for increased likelihood of tangling when the kite falls in the water and rolls. As I said still a beginner and it happens more than everyone would like to admit.
There was also a mention of untangling lines in the water with a low v (obviously with more experience than I have).

This one from Duotone allows you to set the V distance and won't cut your lines. Also allows the single flag out safety line to run through the splitter.

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Lager said..
Hi All,
As a fairly new comer to kiting I am trying to decipher the pros and cons of having a high or low v for lines. Seems to be a point of difference to make people buy a bar that matches the kite brand from what I can gather.
Am I missing something.

I used to have F-one Bandits and F-one Breeze kites in my quiver. Bandits fly on high V and Breeze on low V.

The F-one bar allows you to choose between the 2. Change over takes a few seconds.

Every now and again I'd forget to switch the set up and would notice a different. Not that the kite was impossible to fly nor I had to abort and go back to the beach to swap over but just not as good than with the recommended set up....

If you have kites that fly on different V set ups, just get a bar that covers both. F-one Lynx is one and I am sure some other manufacturers would have that option too.

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Gorgo said..
I would be trying out a stainless ring, or a low friction ring, and splicing a Prussic loop to attach it.

The problem with the stainless steel is its weight. If the line gets loose it sinks and potentially hooks into something. Lines also tangle around a ring attachment relatively easily, that never happens around a ball.

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Gateman said..
This one from Duotone allows you to set the V distance and won't cut your lines. Also allows the single flag out safety line to run through the splitter.

Duotone also "confess" that at the compression site the line will wear quicker, i.e. that's where it will snap if overloaded. On the other hand, it is a good compromise when the line is from one piece, i.e. no slicing in the middle.

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Lager said..
Thanks for the info. Is there any pros and cons for either one for increased likelihood of tangling when the kite falls in the water and rolls. As I said still a beginner and it happens more than everyone would like to admit.
There was also a mention of untangling lines in the water with a low v (obviously with more experience than I have).

As the frontlines are together for half the distance (to the V point), tangling may not be so likely.

I like self landing with a fast fly to the edge of the window with a solid yank on the the top front line to land the kite perfectly like a kite flying ninja. High Y prevents such ninja antics. That's a deal breaker for me.

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Plummet said..
I like self landing with a fast fly to the edge of the window with a solid yank on the the top front line to land the kite perfectly like a kite flying ninja. High Y prevents such ninja antics. That's a deal breaker for me.

Yup

If you are lucky to have Airush Smart bar you can do same trick as I did. Front lines coming in segments, and each has loop-loop connection so that you can use that point to put through a piece of old fly line (any close to 2mm dyneema will do the job). Then I cut a ring from old fishing rod about 10mm one and tied it in with that piece of fly line, lastly run the second front line through and happy days:). Because low v bar already has stopper at the bottom you don't need any at the split point. You also still can self land as you have two separate front lines that look different at the bottom as one has red safety and if you know which one you attached to say right front side you know which one to pull at landing. So I have universal solution for any kite as at top the lines have pigtails so you can swich where you have knots-loops pairs. Line segments are 10, 6 and 4m long so in the end split point will be where you need it. Everything is reversible so if you need low v just pull second front line of the ring(ring can stay attached to first line)

Forgot to mention, ring has to be attached to static line (not the one that flags out the kite). And obviously whole story can be used on any single flagging low v bar, you just need to stich the ring to static line

Thanks guys. Some really good tips. Looks like I still have a lot of learning to do. Soooo many small differences between a lot of variable gear.