Does the angle of you kite when you do a trick make or break?

Some words from Mr #1, Aaron Hadlow...

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Has comp riding changed?

Aaron Hadlow said

A lot of people ask me what I think of double handle passes and how freestyle has progressed in the last years.

Looking back through some old footage I saw a small video I put together 3 years ago in Brazil in Sept/Oct 2006.
It was never released at the time because of footage rights but here it is now to ask the question if competition riding has developed over the last few years.

I know my own free-riding has changed quite a lot but I find that the vibe on tour is still ‘double handle passes to win’. In some cases I can agree, they can be harder, but the kite has to be at a decent angle.
For instance is a Low Mobe 5 with the kite next to the water harder than a Mobe 7 with the kite above your head? Yes, I think it is.
In my eyes a lot to do with double handle passes is strength when you are talking about these kite angles, almost a pull up, is this good for our sport?
Once the kite comes down and people use body movement and speed opposed to dangling and time, then we are talking about the next level of difficulty, until then I don’t agree.

I know I helped bring these to the table a few years back, but for me they fizzled out and I tried something different, I didn’t see them progressing much further at the time and that lead to a change in my riding, adding technical difficulty in different ways. Lower kite, different grabs and movements, etc.
These days I don’t do doubles so much, I’m sure it shows, when I see one I generally think they portray a bad image for kiteboarding but despite not seeing them develop much in the last years I do think there is room for improvement, it just takes someone to do it. Sometimes I think maybe I should give them one last chance, but is it worth it?
I don’t think that people or judges notice kite angles that much, it is hard to tell the difference.
The thing is kite angles always rise in comp, the chances of landing gets better and better the higher you put your kite, I have seen kites at ridiculous angles, but I think it is still viewed as the same trick and difficulty anywhere in the region from 40 degrease - 70 degrease, only when one rider has it at 30 and another at 80 do people really notice.

For me I want my riding to look as good as possible thats why sometimes I’d rather not do them or I will pull a Front Mobe Blind instead of a higher kite and an air-pass.
I know I have done a lot of competitions with doubles, even in the recent few years and I will continue doing what I have to do to win events but it just shows me that tricks in a heat have not moved on that much and more needs to be done to progress the competitions scene.

ahh you beat me to it!

go read it on www.aaronhadlow.com and click on the red words in the text to see videos that illustrates his point

surfing was the same for most of the 80's and pretty much all the 90's, do the safety dance to win the heat.

you'd see these guys ripping on video and free surfing but come to the competition and boring 'cut back' and 're-entry' to the beach.

then the format changed and it took on an amount of credibility (still not much, to me professional surfing is pointless)

maybe kiting needs to take on some format changes

good to see, and long overdue....a step closer to some semblance of credibility in the PKRA

Now the X^1000 world champ says it, it must be true... I hate to say I told you so... but I really did tell you so

On a slightly more serious note, this is great, now maybe people will realise what they are doing is not legit or pushing the sport in a good direction, because even their idol says it's ghey... and hopefully we can have a world tour that gives some sort of credibility to the sport.

p.s.
Aaron Hadlow UPDATE 2!!:
Aaron Hadlow has just had another realisation, foot hook wakestyle is totally Aids.
(wonder how long it will be for real...)

completely agree that hadlow stomping beats danglers twiddling any day. so it begs the question, who the f are the pkra judges if they can't appreciate the difference?

certainly the predominant aesthetic seems to be, how can i put this, a bit pretty, and it must only be a matter of time before someone or some crew a bit more primitive, brutal and punk rock shakes things up??? please ...

If the judging doesn't change, the game won't change.

p.s. Stop red thumbing me Aaannnnnndyyyyyyyy.

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djdojo said...

completely agree that hadlow stomping beats danglers twiddling any day. so it begs the question, who the f are the pkra judges if they can't appreciate the difference?

certainly the predominant aesthetic seems to be, how can i put this, a bit pretty, and it must only be a matter of time before someone or some crew a bit more primitive, brutal and punk rock shakes things up??? please ...

Yeah, I think your on it there. Surely the buck has to stop with the backwards, corporatized, sterile, narrow-minded and single bottom line governing bodies running these comps?

Massive props to AH for having the ball's to bite the hand that's been feeding him crap for too long. Not many pro's in any sports have the gut's to do that. Even though he never accused PKRA directly, we know what he meant and why he said it. The look on his face when he lost to Kevin in that last vid... He was pissed.

Rowdy - Suggest you get as much freakin milage off this thing as inhumanly possible.

If I was a judge I'd have 2 criteria:
1.) who can do the highest boardoff guitar strum.
2.) who can spray ****loads of water into the air and ride away at speed

nothing else matters. Nothing progresses a sport like 20m high guitar strums...nothing.

wheres all the whingers and whiners from the ask kevin dingleree thread?! now that big man hadlow says it every follows suit?

BAHHHHHHH BAHHHHHHHHHHHHH BAHHHHHHHH <<<< thats you (dangleree thread) bunch of bAHHHHHING sheep.

Lenten did it earlier but he just hasnt got the same response outa it.. he was just normal and left the comp scene because of the above mentioned bull****

Any competition sport where judging is subjective, such as gymnastics, figure skating, freestyle snowboarding, surfing and of course freestyle kiteboarding, will have controversial outcomes. Judges have their own preconceived ideas of what looks good even when they have criteria right in front of them. And the general public, kiters or not, don't know what scores high, what scores low and I'm sure most moves look pretty similar. Surfing has struggled for decades to attract big sponsorship dollars and changed competition formats many times even with 1000x more people in the sport than kiting.

A friend of mine who has been surfing for 40 years came to the Freestyle Nationals a few years ago and commented on the similarities to surfing competitions in the 1970's. He particularly noted that competitors never seemed to question the judges scores allocated to their moves or put in formal complaints when they felt ripped off. This happens in surfing comps all the time. His son is a professional surfer who tourers the world on the pro circuit. He doesn't make much money from comps but makes a meager living from sponsors. Travel gobles up most of his cash.

Remember, to draw big dollars to a competition requires sponsorship. Sponsors want bums on seats to display their product. If competition does not have mass appeal with easy to follow rules and outcomes then competitors will remain poorly paid and the sport will remain fringe.

Look at swimming, tennis and golf. Eazy for a spectator to follow and a clear non subjective outcome. This translates into big sponsorship dollars.

I don't think freestyle kiteboarding wiil ever attract big dollars simply because of what it is. Mr Haddlow is still poorly paid compared to other professional athletes. So it's pointless quibling over what scores high or not (low kite - high kite who cares). For people to devote a good percentage of their lives to a poorly paid sport only shows they love the sport for what it is and money is secondary. Life after competitive kiting without a back-up plan or a rich dad can be pretty cripling.

Also, remember our Australian comps are run by volunteers. People with real jobs mostly outside the industry. They don't do it for money. In fact it costs them to provide you with a spectacle. So if you have a complaint about how comps are run lend a hand to change it.

Sadly for kiteboarding to become an Olympic sport it will have to go the way of windsurfing and offer course racing as the only competitive option. Clear outcome, easy format to follow by spectators fom outside the sport.

Rant concluded.

What were the similarity's to surfing comps in the 1970's?.... This years nationals was actually pretty similar to that of current day wakeboarding/ snowboarding comps, I think if there had been better wind it would have been alot better, but because of the gustiness people had to dangle a bit. (not good but we needed a result)

Course racing... Imagine doing that in sydney harbour where they held the Winsurfing olympics... Not gonna happen.

Hi Rowdy

I remember his comments as an outsider looking in were that it was friendly, relaxed and amateurish, low budget, small sponsors. Not that these are bad things.

Professional surfing is much more upbeat and slick in presentation. Go to Bells at Easter and you'll see a media circus with a lot at stake. I was there in 1968 when we had a world comp. It was then pretty low budget compared to today's madness.

Yah, I'd hate to see course racing on Sydney Harbour. Ugly.

true.

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Any competition sport where judging is subjective, such as gymnastics, figure skating, freestyle snowboarding, surfing and of course freestyle kiteboarding, will have controversial outcomes. Judges have their own preconceived ideas of what looks good even when they have criteria right in front of them. And the general public, kiters or not, don't know what scores high, what scores low and I'm sure most moves look pretty similar. Surfing has struggled for decades to attract big sponsorship dollars and changed competition formats many times even with 1000x more people in the sport than kiting.

judges criteria should be to benefit the sport and do what is right not what looks good for idiots that dont know the sport because to them its pretty much all the same anyway..
as for pulling in big sponsors, im sure it is more likely to happen when our sport gets more credit from other extremes such as wake surf snow etc because when they start going oh yer kitings sick or what ever then their sponsors would be more inclined to profit of that.

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Also, remember our Australian comps are run by volunteers. People with real jobs mostly outside the industry. They don't do it for money. In fact it costs them to provide you with a spectacle. So if you have a complaint about how comps are run lend a hand to change it.

we are talking about the pro tour here and that is the one that should change. if that changes smaller comps like nationals and states will follow suit. its that simple. and im sure pkrgay people are infact paid for what they do.

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KIT33R said...

Yah, I'd hate to see course racing on Sydney Harbour. Ugly.

For a Sydney venue you could always bring it south a bit to Botany instead. Then again that would only make it marginally less ugly, as the combination of chop and other water users (especially on weekends!) would make things less than ideal.

im sure for a olympic event theyd get permission to be the only water users of that area during that time

errgh, how did we get onto olympics? kiting needs the olympics like ice cube needs american idol.

besides that stop getting off topic we are here to discuss the lameness of current freestyle comp riders and how every1s idol says they are ghey.
how does this make you feel?

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djdojo said...

errgh, how did we get onto olympics? kiting needs the olympics like ice cube needs american idol.

haha

Can't believe he was pulling that stuff in 06, pretty amazing.

Also he has zero cred talking about legit tricks and talking about how a "low" mobe 5 is better than a mobe 7. Check out this video of my sick low late mobe 7 airpass.

HAHA Spacey,

The music just makes it funnier. The second to last one cuts just before the faceplant.

Kiteboarding finally has cred! ROFL

KH

I'd like to see more young guys in the sport. They're the ones pushing the envelope, taking the risks to produce amazing new moves that are worth watching.

Because our sport is so expensive we'll always find it hard to attract the early teens. Unless their dad is into it or the family's got money to throw at the sport then the young guys will surf, skate or snatch bags in the shopping mall as a passtime.

I think good kiting should not just be judged on kite angle alone. Low kites should not automatically make a move better. Would you as a judge score a powered low kite sbend higher than a high-kite front mobe? Sure the kites lower, but its still an easier move. if 2 riders both did a front mobe, and one had a lower kite than another, then sure its obvious which one was a harder move, but if the second rider (with a higher kite) stuck in a solid grab... then who's move was harder. There's some guys out there who ride with a lower kite angle, but don't have much speed or power, there's others who can throw a horizontal kiteloop in 25+ knots, then grab then handle-pass and land with speed and power. How do you compare apples with oranges? A kevin danglree kitelooped double pass has to be scored higher than a straight mobe in a comp- surely?? Its just technically harder- end of story- But compared to a low kite grabbed mobe 5, probably not...

I think you've got to look at a kiteboarding freestyle move as a whole. How well does the rider perform the trick? height, power, grabbed technicality and importantly style is pretty obvious. Forget scrutinizing kite-angle specifically, how good was the whole move? A dangly weak trick is pretty obviously inferior to a well powered and well styled trick.

There's too many variables involved, if you pull a late kiteloop on a hybrid depowered kite, there's not much power, and it can look pretty weak, but still claimed as a kiteloop. If you unhooked and looped the kite low and on take-off, its fairly obvious how much power there is. You can have weak-looking dangly moves with a low kite, if there's low speed and bad popping technique on take-off, and you can have sik looking powered tricks with the kite high,

thats what is great about kiting. the variety of tricks available to the rider is unlimited, . gay piss-weak tricks will always look that way, regardless of kite angle.

Because there's so many variations on riding, its gonna always be hard to score and judge. The PKRA judges have a tough job trying to put a score to a heat. especially if the riders are performing different moves. I know some of the PKRA judges, and they are well respected riders and kite mag publishers etc. Give them some credit for knowing the difference between powered mobes and dangly doubles.

Good on Hadlow for continually pushing the boundaries, he continues to answer the critics with innovation, power and style.

kite height has correlation to height in pop so that can barely count - maybe angle of dangle vs height in trick can be looked at.

kite height is negative correlation to style - as angle of dangle increases flow of trick decreases, flow decreases style decreases. style= a trick done with your own uniqueness with fluidity throughout the move and making it look easy. watch nick davies ride cable and hes pissing out style left right and centre, all his moves flow from start to finish and he makes it look like he's not even trying. hadlow is the same when he drops his kite angle in freeriding, his tricks start flowing from start to finish and yes even in straps it looks awsome.

compare this with kevins mobe 7s n such you can see its not a fluid trick he makes pass one hangs there then does a pull up into pass two. the big pause and then just the physical power to pull into it to finish does not equal style.

as for the word DANGLE it refers to a person hanging under their bar being carried by the kite's power and not their own pop, so there for a low kite with a greater horizontal pulling component than vertical pulling component as opposed to a high kite with the opposite makes it impossible to DANGLE with a low kite, yes i understand even people with low kites can look sh!t when they go in super slow and pop like .2 of a meter off the water and wriggle for gold to make what ever spin they are trying to make does look stupid BUT the term dangle is not appropriate to describe this, lack of power or under powered would be more suitable.

if hadlow himself says a mobe 5 kite low is harder than a mobe 7 surely he must be right, or if he says a blind freddo 7 (landing blind) with kitelow is harder than a blind freddo 7 ("air passed") with kite high then who are you to question this? surely you cant question a superior rider can you? isnt that what i was told in the previous dangleree thread?

now lets compare apples with apples to do a kitelow mobe vs a kite high mobe you need more power kitelow to get the same height in pop to complete the trick, more power = harder to pass = better.

hadlow clearly states that they pretty much will mark same tricks the same regardless of whether ur kites at 40 or at 70 degrees which makes a considerable difference in actual difficulty there fore crippling the people who want to push for more power lower kites etc to add more style and consequence.

its not that he is just targeting kite height on its own its just that kite height is interlinked with many other aspects of riding and has the greatest effect on style, consequence and difficulty. thats 3 things that makes one trick better than another completely changed by just 1 aspect of kiting.

A PERFECT example of this is watching a nick davies cable run, then watch his video on the sysitec 2.0 at the projects. at 2.0 the rope is short and angle high and his style pretty much dissapeared, sure he was throwin down just as technical on what could be a harder system to do air tricks on but it looks crap compared to his normal riding

I disagree. It really isn't that hard when you score the different catergories of tricks like wakeboarding now does. Wakeboarding used to have the very same problem, people with zero style doing the most dog touch looking technical tricks and winning tour stops while the guy who is actually shredding with style and power comes in last somewhere.
Instead now they have catergories such as;
Inverts,
Spins,
Straight airs (180 degree spin and under),
Mobes,

Style,
power.
etc..

Now you have to do a trick from each catergory combined with a style and power score which is all added together to make a final overall score. (not exactly right , but it's similar to what i described)
With this system you don't just get some dude going out and doing 10 mobe 15^1000's and winning a comp. You get the rider who is all round best and makes it look good.

Not that hard really... The only thing that is hard is trying to get some people involved in Kiteboarding doing world tours, running company's, doing mags etc. who actually know something about boardsports (skating, snowboarding, wakeboarding) and aren't full blown kooks.

Well there you go. I think we have 2 representatives from Australia for the PKRA judging panel... Pity they dont agree..

I meant I disagreed with Jammin, Charl snuck in before me.

Aaron Kitelow Vs Kevin Dangleree. hmmm, Kitelow gets my vote.
I'd still give it to Dre on pure style as my brain is too slow to keep up with all the squiggles.

^^^ thats just a dead out given. he is almost the epitome of what comps should be about

I meant I disagreed with Jammin, Charl snuck in before me.

of course you do, I didn't expect anything else. Doesn't really matter what I've got to say, its hard to pull the blinkers off and open your mind to outside ideas...

Hey Charl, kinda got lost in your post, you got some good points for sure, I know that low kite powered tricks look heaps better and are harder than the same move with kite high. And I'm not disagreeing with AH calling a mobe 5 as harder than a high pass 7.

All I'm saying is that kite angle should not be a defining specification on a hard or stylish move. There are alot of great stylish moves out there by good riders with kite high too, Judge a move by its power, flow, style etc just like you said, but we shouldn't have to issue judges with protractors and theodelites to calculate kite angles. There's alot of riders doing gay little moves with their kite low, scared to death that the style police are gonna bust them for dingle dangling, and they are missing out on a whole different world of possibilities and fun.

And hate to bag out Dre, but I watched an old kite DVD the other day, and all his passes were with kite 'at lunch'. Unfortunately thats how good moves start, looking pretty sloppy, learning the move, and the pass, then with time and practice dialling it in and making it better and adding the style.