Hi all,
Off the bat, I understand that Carbon mast / foil is the way to go, but expensive.

All I want to do is mow the lawn, will an aluminium foil do the trick?

Do they work or are they a poor mans foil and you get what you pay for?

Thinking of the Airush Core combo.

Any thoughts please.

I'm currently learning on the Slingshot Hover Glide. I'm only 7 sessions into it and have no experience on any other foil so keep in mind that I'm coming from a very inexperienced/beginner point of view. The Hover Glide is a mid aspect wing with only a medium speed potential and it's the heaviest of the alloy composite production foils I believe. So far I'm loving it to learn on. I come off the water feeling stoked after every session and it has been pretty easy to learn on due to the short mast option.

I think if all you want to do is freeride (that's all I'm after as well), then an alloy foil will be fine. Cheap(er), more robust and less twitchy (from what I've read). I'm sure carbon is better in every way for high performance foiling, but have a look at what Greg Drexler of Boardriding Maui can do on a Stringfellow composite wing and a Liquid Force alloy mast. I don't think he cares in any way that he's not on a $3.5k carbon model.

I think you can't go wrong with an alloy for what you want from foiling. I think Zeeko is a great option (best performane to price ratio) and will be what I move to eventually, though I'm in no hurry yet as I'm still enjoying my current set up for the level I'm at. I'd also suggest that the availability of a second shorter mast of around 60cm should guide your decision for both ease of learning and for when wanting to foil in shallow locations. I know that Slingshot, Cabrinha, LF, Naish and Zeeko have the shorter mast option. I'm not sure about the Airush foil as I've not researched it. Would be surprised if they didn't have the option though.

Aluminium works just fine. For a first foil I would really only consider a used aluminium foil. The reason being you should be able to get a foil and board in decent condition for about $1500. You can use it and abuse it to your heart's content then sell it on to the next beginner. Nothing is more heart breaking than damaging your beautiful foil. As a beginner you will damage your foil.

The problems with aluminium is that they are heavy and the amount of stuffing around needed to avoid corrosion is a pain in the bum.

Weight is a pain if you have to carry it. If it hits you it's going to hurt.

You have to dismantle it from time to time to drain out the salt water. You have to put tef gel or similar stuff on the screws.

Most aluminium foils are plate mounts. You have a heap of screws in the mount and heaps more attaching the mast, fuselage and wings.

I moved onto a carbon foil with a matching board and I couldn't be happier with it.

It's light so it's very easy to carry. If it hits me it usually bounces off.

The foil doesn't take on water and there's no corrosion issues and no salt water to mess up the interior of my car.

The foil attaches with deep tuttle mounts so there's only 4 screws for a full disassembly to pack neatly into the car.

As for cost, most alloy foil and board combinations are $2200 (Liquid Force, Cabrinha) up to $2800 (Zeeko)

For about $3000 you can get a carbon setup from J Shapes.

PS A local guy makes his own fuselage and wings out of cheap aluminium and other materials. He just bolts them on to a Liquid Force mast and plate. The result is super ugly, and works just fine.

Does it sing, Gorgo? I've seen a couple of high-end carbon jobbies that I can hear clear across the lake/estuary...

Depends what you want to do--I like trying to ride like Greg Drexler, so even medium AR wings like the HoverGlide are a bit too much...

In regards to Zeeko. The difference is about a grand between their carbon and Alloy foils. And about 1/2 a kg. So if it's weight that's a priority that's $200 per 100g.
the real question is if you are worried about growing out of your new foil, will it keep up with your progress. Does it have a range of wing options that will allow you to explore style options. Is it from a brand pushing development forward or just jumping on the bandwagon.

Hi High as a Kite,

I agree with Gorgo, but ask where do you mainly ride the foil?. In flat water, I'd stretch out & go carbon.
As I ride straight off the beach in whatever the surf happens to be, you get rolled and smashed from time to time getting out in the lighter wind. It's these times I'm glad for a aluminium mast and composite foil. I think I'd be sitting on the beach bitching about snapping carbon if I had one.

If you are after a bulletproof set up for riding off the beach, try a low aspect front wing with a med/high aspect wing set above the fuselage. You can go straight up on the foil from a water start in a gutter & ride over the sand bar through the wave impact zone. It's slow enough to play on waves/swell and the rear wing seems to sit out of the front wings turbulence for a little extra speed & more fluid turning.

Having said that, Gorgo is right about the extra screws and setting up. Plus it would be nice to have a light rig.
You do Adapt, I set up in the carpark and carrying the foil/board with the mast over my shoulder. Some days it's a fair distance to find a decent rip/gutter to head out from. Carrying like this doesn't seems a problem versus the extra durability of the heavier Alum set up.

I've Siliconed the mast to stop it filling with water, and every so often I unscrew all the bolts/ Adapter plate and reapply never seize grease. So far this has kept everything OK in the last 6 months.

If I had access to flat water deep enough for the foil, I would change to an all carbon set up for sure.

Aluminum should be fine for most foiling, cruising and wave riding. Tef Gel is your friend. 30 dollar tube will last a lifetime. I have had my foil now for a year and a bit and there are no corrosion issues. I siliconed the mast and have not really had too much of an issue with water filling up, but I did at first until I took the time to seal it up.
Carbon mast and foils sure have their place, certainly for speed. No doubt there will be plenty of second hand foils as people improve, or decide it's not for them.

Now that foilers are switched on to tefgel it is only a very rare case of neglect that will cause a corrosion issue with a good Alloy foil. Especially one that anodises then powder coats the components.
we have had our Zeeko Black&white foil 12 months and it has been checked regularly but only needed 4 tefgel applications. It is as good as new.
the water in mast deal is to us not an issue. I have caught the water after a session and it is barely 2-3 caps full of a water bottle.
you would have more water issues with putting a wet harness in your car.
mostly I leave fuselage and wings assembled and just separate mast from fuselage and board. The mount plate is 3 bolts and is factory fitted and locked so not to be removed.
this disassembly is barely a few minutes.
the weight at 3.85kg is only 0.55kg more than many of the race foils registered with the hydrofoil World Series or whatever their called. There is more weight variation in board choices than foil choice in many circumstances.

simply put, for freeride foiling, the difference between a good Alloy foil and carbon is money and looks.

I say buy a second hand cheap ****ter and learn on it. Form an opinion, then buy a better unit when you have a better understanding of foiling. Buying an expensive foil now while you're learning is a waste of money imo. Much like a learner buying a brand new quiver of kites.

Now theres the old school low aspect spade designs. Like the LF foil fish. They are pretty crappy in design and will limit your progression about a certain point. The mid aspect wing shape appears to be what most recommend. The slingshot hoverglide fits into that camp. You would most likely get more usable progression from the mid aspect design than the low aspect spade designs of your.

Me. I made my own carbon/bamboo foil and used that. I went for mid aspect wings and that is serving me well.

Thanks guys,

I've had a look but can't find a site with second hand foils.
Where do you guys go?

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high as a kite said..
Thanks guys,

I've had a look but can't find a site with second hand foils.
Where do you guys go?

There's a couple of groups on Facebook... kiteracing2ndhand is one I can remember

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high as a kite said..
Hi all,
Off the bat, I understand that Carbon mast / foil is the way to go, but expensive.

All I want to do is mow the lawn, will an aluminium foil do the trick?

Do they work or are they a poor mans foil and you get what you pay for?

Thinking of the Airush Core combo.

Any thoughts please.

I'd disagree with this statement having owned and ridden both carbon and now aluminium foils.

Aluminimum is undoubtably a bit heavier, but on the water you probably wont be able to tell the difference whilst learning anyways. (The board weight is more noticeable.)

My first foil was a LF FOil fish (aluminimum), and the then upgraded to a 100% carbon Magma Barracuda. I still have this foil and its an excellent loaner to my mates as it's prett much indestructable. Ive spent time on the Levitaz Aspect and owned the KFA Mako race foil, and am currently having a ball riding both new Zeeko foils - the spitfire and green & white.

I found the race foils are not for me - i ike to ride slow and catch waves, and practise strapless and so on. The KFA Mako was more suited to riding at high speeds in straight lines - which is what it is designed for. The Zeeko G&W is hands down the easiest , most stable foil ive ridden, and so much fun. The spitfire is challenging my limits bu gettign me out in 1-2m swells and trying to ride unbroken waves.

If moneyis no object then go buy a carbon foil suited to yoru intended use, but Id find it hard to justify spending 2x the price when i know id have just as much fun on an aluminium product. Plus plastic G10 wings are very easy to repair !

Looks like a mid aspect aluminium foil is the way to go for me.
Just have to find one with a tuttle connection.

The less drag and weight the better.Water flow on carbon foils is way better because you can fair them..

For me the choice has simplified. If you want to race then a high end carbon foil is the way to go. For free ride and just messing around on swell or light wind river sessions, it used to be that the design of the ali set ups was not particularly good and so it was worth just going straight for the high end carbon set up. However, there are a few ali set ups on the market now that seem to have it just right. I can only speak for the Zeeko ali set up but believe there are a couple out there similar. First of all it is not expensive and is available 2nd hand already. Secondly it performs really well in terms of board speed range (8-26knots with free ride wing and 5-21knots with Carver wing). By really well I mean it is extremely stable and does not vibrate when accelerating. Thirdly, and this is a big for me, it packs down really small for travel e.g. I have just been to a few places by air including Exmouth & Zanzibar and packed a TT, 2 kites, harness, lines a stubby(custom made by David in Perth) board and my foil in a 150 NP Golf Bag and it was 25Kg and no problem. So , my smallest 10m kite and the TT I could be out in 30Knots and my 13M + foil with Carver wing I can be out in 9knots! All with 2 kites. You do have to keep it rinsed and every few months reapply with tefgel but have had no problems otherwise. Lastly, when you are learning, the very sharp "faired" toiling edges on the carbon masts and wings are a bit off putting and psychologically challenging.
So if you are a racer there is no better buzz than riding the formula one of sailing craft and the carbon set ups are AMAZING for this. For everyone else I think the ali set ups have improved enough to bridge the performance gap enough.

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daddycool said..
For me the choice has simplified. If you want to race then a high end carbon foil is the way to go. For free ride and just messing around on swell or light wind river sessions, it used to be that the design of the ali set ups was not particularly good and so it was worth just going straight for the high end carbon set up. However, there are a few ali set ups on the market now that seem to have it just right. I can only speak for the Zeeko ali set up but believe there are a couple out there similar. First of all it is not expensive and is available 2nd hand already. Secondly it performs really well in terms of board speed range (8-26knots with free ride wing and 5-21knots with Carver wing). By really well I mean it is extremely stable and does not vibrate when accelerating. Thirdly, and this is a big for me, it packs down really small for travel e.g. I have just been to a few places by air including Exmouth & Zanzibar and packed a TT, 2 kites, harness, lines a stubby(custom made by David in Perth) board and my foil in a 150 NP Golf Bag and it was 25Kg and no problem. So , my smallest 10m kite and the TT I could be out in 30Knots and my 13M + foil with Carver wing I can be out in 9knots! All with 2 kites. You do have to keep it rinsed and every few months reapply with tefgel but have had no problems otherwise. Lastly, when you are learning, the very sharp "faired" toiling edges on the carbon masts and wings are a bit off putting and psychologically challenging.
So if you are a racer there is no better buzz than riding the formula one of sailing craft and the carbon set ups are AMAZING for this. For everyone else I think the ali set ups have improved enough to bridge the performance gap enough.

Leaning towards a Green and White from Zeeko. Have sent Ral inn a message, haven't heard back from him .
Might use a stick on foil mount. Then i don't have to worry about tuttle connection.

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jamesperth said..

high as a kite said..
Hi all,
Off the bat, I understand that Carbon mast / foil is the way to go, but expensive.

All I want to do is mow the lawn, will an aluminium foil do the trick?

Do they work or are they a poor mans foil and you get what you pay for?

Thinking of the Airush Core combo.

Any thoughts please.

I'd disagree with this statement having owned and ridden both carbon and now aluminium foils.

Aluminimum is undoubtably a bit heavier, but on the water you probably wont be able to tell the difference whilst learning anyways. (The board weight is more noticeable.)

My first foil was a LF FOil fish (aluminimum), and the then upgraded to a 100% carbon Magma Barracuda. I still have this foil and its an excellent loaner to my mates as it's prett much indestructable. Ive spent time on the Levitaz Aspect and owned the KFA Mako race foil, and am currently having a ball riding both new Zeeko foils - the spitfire and green & white.

I found the race foils are not for me - i ike to ride slow and catch waves, and practise strapless and so on. The KFA Mako was more suited to riding at high speeds in straight lines - which is what it is designed for. The Zeeko G&W is hands down the easiest , most stable foil ive ridden, and so much fun. The spitfire is challenging my limits bu gettign me out in 1-2m swells and trying to ride unbroken waves.

If moneyis no object then go buy a carbon foil suited to yoru intended use, but Id find it hard to justify spending 2x the price when i know id have just as much fun on an aluminium product. Plus plastic G10 wings are very easy to repair !

please keep any feedback coming from any spitfire riders in ocean swell, are they better in waves.. jumps.. game changer.. announcement of spitfire II

It's probably time for a section on zeeko or some serious world wide marketing cause you're using the same spill that has been regurgitated by the same posters about other brands of kites.. or just get a hoverglide.

Hands down it would have to be the best allround kit available. BUT slingshot have a lot bigger budget and don't use hot air to promote their products. They're product speaks for itself....

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Fly on da wall said..
It's probably time for a section on zeeko or some serious world wide marketing cause you're using the same spill that has been regurgitated by the same posters about other brands of kites.. or just get a hoverglide.

Hands down it would have to be the best allround kit available. BUT slingshot have a lot bigger budget and don't use hot air to promote their products. They're product speaks for itself....

Hoverglide is well an truly on my radar if i have to get a board as well.

High as a kite; how much foiling have you done?

And in regards to Zeeko marketing. It's basically the whole 3 employees of Zeeko plus a couple of friends heading to a cool spot a couple times a year and videoing themselves having fun.

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RAL INN said..
High as a kite; how much foiling have you done?

And in regards to Zeeko marketing. It's basically the whole 3 employees of Zeeko plus a couple of friends heading to a cool spot a couple times a year and videoing themselves having fun.

Got your message, thanks.

8 hours

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Fly on da wall said..

Hands down it would have to be the best allround kit available. BUT slingshot have a lot bigger budget and don't use hot air to promote their products. They're product speaks for itself....

Having different mast length makes it the best all-round kit available?

IMO the best all round kit would have a choice of several wings (different surfaces, different shapes), so you can go free riding, carving, go fast. Sorry mate but your Hoverglide does not tick any of these boxes....

Different mast length might speed up the learning curve of going back and forth but that's where it stops (unless you ride the shallow and needs a shorter one as your main mast).

To top it up, Slingshot sell their front wing for US $499 which is around AU $650. So assuming they release different wings later on, you will have to pay the big $ to upgrade a below average rig (slow mast, crappy fuselage).

The way the assembly is designed will prevent most DIYer to built their own wings while if you are a bit of a handy man, Zeeko, Alpine or Airush system makes it a hell of a lot easier.... You could built your own wing for $100

At 5kg, I'd say no thanks to the hover glide! There are some better options out there that you won't outgrow within 1 year....

If you outgrow it in a year, you either kite a LOT or you're some kind of prodigy.

The mast and plate for it are cheap though...

I'm sure a carbon set up will be on the wishlist in the future, but a set up like the hoverglide can take a newbie novice from not foiling to foiling competently quite quickly and safely with ease. It's just another plug n play set up. No need for a big drawn out learning curve if you are prepared to start with the flight school mast package and get online n watch foil academy over n over and learn from it and follow the program.

Good luck to all newbie foilers... there's going to be a lot more getting up and enjoying the freedom and unreal sensation of foiling and ripping up your favorite spots!

Whatever rock's your boat... Have fun doing it!!

stoked to have the hover in kit as a starter keeper, have foot in door to rad ocean wave foiling carbon alloy future, whichever mix brand nails it

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pmk said..
stoked to have the hover in kit as a starter keeper, have foot in door to rad ocean wave foiling carbon alloy future, whichever mix brand nails it

Wave foiling?

IMHO you need a foil that had a gentle low speed stall, can ride slowly but accelerates quickly and is stable up to and at high speed. Needs to be yaw and pitch stable, roll loose but not twitchy. And not draggy cos you then need to much kite...

The Axis aluminum foil is the closest to all those criteria. In my experience... the LF FF and the Naish was a little too twitchy in roll and pitch in the surf, the Double Agent is too slow and draggy, the HoverGlide stalls too aggressively and might be too stable in the roll...

I really want to try a Zeeko Carver type wing.

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Kamikuza said..

pmk said..
stoked to have the hover in kit as a starter keeper, have foot in door to rad ocean wave foiling carbon alloy future, whichever mix brand nails it

Wave foiling?

IMHO you need a foil that had a gentle low speed stall, can ride slowly but accelerates quickly and is stable up to and at high speed. Needs to be yaw and pitch stable, roll loose but not twitchy. And not draggy cos you then need to much kite...

The Axis aluminum foil is the closest to all those criteria. In my experience... the LF FF and the Naish was a little too twitchy in roll and pitch in the surf, the Double Agent is too slow and draggy, the HoverGlide stalls too aggressively and might be too stable in the roll...

I really want to try a Zeeko Carver type wing.

I would be more interested in the Spitfire with the Canaard design for surf. If I was going to break down and get another foil, I would look into that model as the write ups say it's more back foot riding similar to a surfboard. It might take a few sessions to get used to is, but it is a valid design idea.

What I picked up on the way is that the spitfire is amazing to twist, turn and carve but does need board speed to do so as the wings are so much smaller. At 100 kg , I use the carver wing and am told if I used a smaller vertical tail fin (the tt type fin) it helps with manoeuvrability. However I find 50mm standard fine as it is. Also, only use the standard front wing when wind is up around 15kn+. By the way have discovered also that the allround 3 strut kites ( eg dice, bandit, enduro, fx, evo etc) are perfect for freeride foiling being lighter and quicker turning. This is great as there are so many out there.....

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Kamikuza said..

pmk said..
stoked to have the hover in kit as a starter keeper, have foot in door to rad ocean wave foiling carbon alloy future, whichever mix brand nails it

Wave foiling?

IMHO you need a foil that had a gentle low speed stall, can ride slowly but accelerates quickly and is stable up to and at high speed. Needs to be yaw and pitch stable, roll loose but not twitchy. And not draggy cos you then need to much kite...

The Axis aluminum foil is the closest to all those criteria. In my experience... the LF FF and the Naish was a little too twitchy in roll and pitch in the surf, the Double Agent is too slow and draggy, the HoverGlide stalls too aggressively and might be too stable in the roll...

I really want to try a Zeeko Carver type wing.

Where do you live Kamikuza - we should do a swap for a week - Would like to try the Axis.......

Only borrowed it for a session :( but it really clicked. Went back to the LF and thought, "y'know what? I *am* ready for something better" and sold it

Adrian said I needed a bigger wing and went to China to make one :D but it may work out that I'll miss out on testing it which is a pisser...

Am keen to try the Spitfire but not sure about the requirement for lots of wind... Foiling is a lighter winds option for me.

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Kamikuza said..
If you outgrow it in a year, you either kite a LOT or you're some kind of prodigy.

The mast and plate for it are cheap though...

"Outgrown" may not be the right word. "Bored" might suit it better. Mainly because with the Hoverglide you currently have only one wing option available... Unless the wind conditions at your local are always the same of course.