Hey crew,
After ditching the twin tip for a few years I wanted to come back and revisit what is fun about riding them. In the past I have primarily ridden waves on a strapped sb and have always enjoyed boosting with my Reo's. Last couple of years I have been into the foiling scene and really enjoying that, but I do like to mix it up. I ended up with a 12 meter Hyperlink for lightwind sessions in the 6 knot range. But what I also wanted was to get back into more standard jumping and old school stuff that I never really explored before as I was just keen to get into waves. I have had a few sessions powered up on a tt and am enjoying some pretty good height and hangtime but it's so different than flying my other kites I am struggling with the technique on landing these jumps. Sometimes they are perfect and pillow soft (which I need as my knees don't appreciate a constant battering), other times I end up with my momentum going down wind and the kite headed toward the edge of the window in the redirect causing me to crash. So....after cruising the net looking for advice I didn't really find too much on the redirect, and also when to sheet in and out. With my Reo's I can always loop it to keep the kite in front of me and my downwind momentum, but I am unsure on how to do this with a foil kite. I am NOT keen to loop this kite yet, and really shouldn't need to if I learn how to do this properly. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Cheers...

I've been doing pretty much the same as you throughout this season.... TT boosting with my hyperlinks. The height and float is awesome (almost comical) but I dont think I can offer you any advice beyond what you already doing. I still will often mistime the redirect and muck up the landing. I think its because the float is so long and parachute like that I just want it to max out and I overstep the point I should start the redirect.
I dont think there's any tricks or special techniques just good timing.
One thing to keep in mind or at least get used to is how much more upwind/forward in the window the kite sits in comparison to ILE kites. Teabaging or penduluming will result in a collapsed kite that can end badly.
It always seems to me that the float carries you backwards which can be reduced by not sending the kite past 12.

When your coming in for approach squat down and stick your butt right out in a massive poo man stance

Keep the kite closer to the zenith when sending. Don't send it too far back, Foils are slower.
Then set a slow redirect going so the kite moves accross the zenith
Foils like to breath. Let the bar out on the way down.

Then 1m or so before landing bar in and redirect hard.

You will get a pillowy soft landing everytime.

"...end up with my momentum going down wind and the kite headed toward the edge of the window in the redirect causing me to crash."

Redirect later, or less -- aim to bring the kite back just to the other side of the zenith, not a deep dive.

Don't sheet right out as that lets the foil accelerate to the edge of the window.

You *can* sheet out a little to get the kite moving for the redirect, then bring the bar back in.

You're probably getting float from the redirect too, more than you're used to with a tube, so I bet you're not accounting for that and diving the kite too deep.

The redirect float can pop you back up again too, which is fun :)

Never liked jumping the 12m foils, too easy to over-sheet and stall them mid jump...

Dunno about the Hyperlink, but other foils I've used jump better when you aim for a more vertical jump, with the kite more above you. Have to sheet out more when you send it...

Maybe :D seem to remember the Speeds did better with that and holding the edge and a flick, rather then digging in hard and deep.

Later and or slower re-direct is the key with a foil.

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Kamikuza said..
Never liked jumping the 12m foils, too easy to over-sheet and stall them mid jump...

That's what most lei riders doo. Oversheet and stall the kite which leads a harsh landing.

Let the bar out partially at least or all the way out then back in is the answer. Once you have retuned yourself for the slower style redirect and not as far back send you can time a really pillowy soft landing everytime.

Here's a vid I uploaded a few years back,. Got to 2:05 and check out what I do with the bar coming down. You have to have you landing sorted on landboard jumps!,,,,

All of the above are really good tips (apart from the poo stance...).I've spent the last few months really trying to get as consistently high as I can on my Sonics, so I've got a few tips that might help. Most of this stuff is muscle memory though, so I might have it a bit wrong. I also know you are pretty experienced, so I know you probably know most of this, but I'll just put it down anyway so others can add to/correct it. I might be completely wrong on some points too - this is just where I'm at at the moment, and I feel I've been doing ok... Also, things might be slightly different with the Sonics, I've not flown any of the other newer Foil kites.

Setup and takeoff

Like others said above, the foils need a much more vertical takeoff, and a less aggressive throw/pop off the water than you would do with an inflatable. Really focus on making sure the kite is a lot higher (more vertical) in the window than you would when leaving the water with an inflatable.

"...end up with my momentum going down wind..." - this could be partly because the launch wasn't vertical enough. On really big jumps, I come back down to water with negligible downwind momentum, but if I was on an inflatable coming from the same height I would be going downwind at a rate of knots, and would most likely be looking to a downloop to catch me.

Another thing that can lead to you going downwind a lot as you are coming down is related to what Kamikuza said about the backstalling of the kite. I always have the foils trimmed so that the kite won't backstall when the bar is fully sheeted in. If it backstalls when it is pulling you upwards, it won't give you the vertical lift you want and it will start taking you downwind (which also reduces the air flowing over the kite, and gives you less lift).

If riding to the left, I would not send the kite back past 1 o'clock on the initial jump redirect - even that is possibly too much. Any more than that you really notice the kite not giving you the lift you would expect. The foils really don't seem to benefit from the pendulum effect that can benefit some of the LEI kites.

When you redirect the kite (still for the launch), sheet out to let the kite breath throughout the turn (not necessarily right out, this will be something that you just need to get a feel for on your kite), and don't throw it as aggressively as you would an inflatable. The aim is to keep the kite flying and building power, where the sudden harsh redirect you generally use with an inflatable will make the foil 'flap' a bit and not stay as efficient. If as you are going up you see the kite flap/go out of shape a little, you will be losing height/lift and will end up more downwind. When you leave the water, sheet in, but again, not super aggressively so the kite can react to the new direction/attitude without getting pulled out of shape. If the kite is trimmed so it won't backstall, you do sheet in all the way, but just more controlled/gradually than you generally do on an inflatable.

When you are leaving the water, you want to 'pop' a bit more than when jumping an inflatable. Generally, when jumping the inflatables you are trying to hold the power right up to the point where the kite is ready to rip you off the water, and then let it slingshot you into the air (and usually with a big downwind component). If you do the same with the foils, they are more likely to do the jump/flap thing, lose efficiency, and also take off with more of a downwind component than you need to. For foils, the approach/jump is similar, you just need to ensure that you keep the kite flying smoothly at all times, avoiding any sharp changes that will let the kite lose its shape.

In the air

I find you can keep the foils dead overhead for a lot longer than you can with an inflatable. They will also go a lot more behind you than the inflatables will, which is what lets you come down with a lot less downwind component. On the way up, just keep sheeted in with the kite vertical (unless the kite looks like it is starting to backstall - it will either stop moving forward or will move backward), in which case you will need to let the bar out a little to let it breath a bit.

For really big jumps, on the way down, I sheet out and angle the kite down a little bit toward the direction I will be redirecting the kite in. This will allow the kite to actually be flying powered when it comes to the redirect. I do this as a very slow arc, just enough so that I can feel the power staying in the kite. On really big jumps (11m+), you may need to actively fly the kite a little on the way down to make sure it's in a good position for the redirect. If the kite does feel like it's going too far forward, sheet in a little to try and keep it powered and ready to go.

Landing

Because you should be coming down reasonably slowly, the final redirect doesn't need to be until 1m or so off the water. With your 12, you should be able to just crank it and it will almost stop you. If it was a high jump, the kite will likely be close to the edge of the window, so you will need to really crank a 12 to get it moving back into the window, but if you have managed to keep the kite powered and high, it will still be supporting you even if it looks like it is heading at the water.

You should also not really have much downwind momentum. Unless I am at the high end of the kites wind range (on an 11m), I typically need to redirect hard to get me up to planing speed again. If you are in the in a comfortable wind range on the 12m (i.e. you are not feeling overpowered) you should also be able to downloop the 12m no worries - it will stop you dead vertically. If you are feeling really powered though, the downloops do produce a lot of speed and power...

If you haven't managed to keep enough power in the kite, or it has crept too far forward, or you don't redirect hard enough, then that is when you will risk the lines slacking and the kite is likely to fold up/wing tuck/etc, which is a real PITA.

Bottom line

Everything with the foils seems to be keeping everything smooth to ensure they keep their shape and maintain their max efficiency.

I love the way the foils jump. I still have inflatables as well, but I just can not get the height and hangtime I can on the foils in the conditions we have in Brisbane. It's not until the wind is heading into the 25+ range (which we don't often get) that the LEIs start taking over. In that range I'll be putting the foils away anyway.

I know the Woo heights can be a bit contentious, but I think they are still a good tool that can give you a long term trend on how you are doing, and on how changes you make impact your results. Individual results may not be 100% reliable, but as long as they are consistent, you can gauge how changes you are making impact your jumps over time. They do become addictive though, and sessions I would normally just go out and have fun, I will instead put up a bigger kite and see how high I can go instead...

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Jonesey32 said..
All of the above are really good tips (apart from the poo stance...).I've spent the last few months really trying to get as consistently high as I can on my Sonics, so I've got a few tips that might help. Most of this stuff is muscle memory though, so I might have it a bit wrong. I also know you are pretty experienced, so I know you probably know most of this, but I'll just put it down anyway so others can add to/correct it. I might be completely wrong on some points too - this is just where I'm at at the moment, and I feel I've been doing ok... Also, things might be slightly different with the Sonics, I've not flown any of the other newer Foil kites.

Setup and takeoff

Like others said above, the foils need a much more vertical takeoff, and a less aggressive throw/pop off the water than you would do with an inflatable. Really focus on making sure the kite is a lot higher (more vertical) in the window than you would when leaving the water with an inflatable.

"...end up with my momentum going down wind..." - this could be partly because the launch wasn't vertical enough. On really big jumps, I come back down to water with negligible downwind momentum, but if I was on an inflatable coming from the same height I would be going downwind at a rate of knots, and would most likely be looking to a downloop to catch me.

Another thing that can lead to you going downwind a lot as you are coming down is related to what Kamikuza said about the backstalling of the kite. I always have the foils trimmed so that the kite won't backstall when the bar is fully sheeted in. If it backstalls when it is pulling you upwards, it won't give you the vertical lift you want and it will start taking you downwind (which also reduces the air flowing over the kite, and gives you less lift).

If riding to the left, I would not send the kite back past 1 o'clock on the initial jump redirect - even that is possibly too much. Any more than that you really notice the kite not giving you the lift you would expect. The foils really don't seem to benefit from the pendulum effect that can benefit some of the LEI kites.

When you redirect the kite (still for the launch), sheet out to let the kite breath throughout the turn (not necessarily right out, this will be something that you just need to get a feel for on your kite), and don't throw it as aggressively as you would an inflatable. The aim is to keep the kite flying and building power, where the sudden harsh redirect you generally use with an inflatable will make the foil 'flap' a bit and not stay as efficient. If as you are going up you see the kite flap/go out of shape a little, you will be losing height/lift and will end up more downwind. When you leave the water, sheet in, but again, not super aggressively so the kite can react to the new direction/attitude without getting pulled out of shape. If the kite is trimmed so it won't backstall, you do sheet in all the way, but just more controlled/gradually than you generally do on an inflatable.

When you are leaving the water, you want to 'pop' a bit more than when jumping an inflatable. Generally, when jumping the inflatables you are trying to hold the power right up to the point where the kite is ready to rip you off the water, and then let it slingshot you into the air (and usually with a big downwind component). If you do the same with the foils, they are more likely to do the jump/flap thing, lose efficiency, and also take off with more of a downwind component than you need to. For foils, the approach/jump is similar, you just need to ensure that you keep the kite flying smoothly at all times, avoiding any sharp changes that will let the kite lose its shape.

In the air

I find you can keep the foils dead overhead for a lot longer than you can with an inflatable. They will also go a lot more behind you than the inflatables will, which is what lets you come down with a lot less downwind component. On the way up, just keep sheeted in with the kite vertical (unless the kite looks like it is starting to backstall - it will either stop moving forward or will move backward), in which case you will need to let the bar out a little to let it breath a bit.

For really big jumps, on the way down, I sheet out and angle the kite down a little bit toward the direction I will be redirecting the kite in. This will allow the kite to actually be flying powered when it comes to the redirect. I do this as a very slow arc, just enough so that I can feel the power staying in the kite. On really big jumps (11m+), you may need to actively fly the kite a little on the way down to make sure it's in a good position for the redirect. If the kite does feel like it's going too far forward, sheet in a little to try and keep it powered and ready to go.

Landing

Because you should be coming down reasonably slowly, the final redirect doesn't need to be until 1m or so off the water. With your 12, you should be able to just crank it and it will almost stop you. If it was a high jump, the kite will likely be close to the edge of the window, so you will need to really crank a 12 to get it moving back into the window, but if you have managed to keep the kite powered and high, it will still be supporting you even if it looks like it is heading at the water.

You should also not really have much downwind momentum. Unless I am at the high end of the kites wind range (on an 11m), I typically need to redirect hard to get me up to planing speed again. If you are in the in a comfortable wind range on the 12m (i.e. you are not feeling overpowered) you should also be able to downloop the 12m no worries - it will stop you dead vertically. If you are feeling really powered though, the downloops do produce a lot of speed and power...

If you haven't managed to keep enough power in the kite, or it has crept too far forward, or you don't redirect hard enough, then that is when you will risk the lines slacking and the kite is likely to fold up/wing tuck/etc, which is a real PITA.

Bottom line

Everything with the foils seems to be keeping everything smooth to ensure they keep their shape and maintain their max efficiency.

I love the way the foils jump. I still have inflatables as well, but I just can not get the height and hangtime I can on the foils in the conditions we have in Brisbane. It's not until the wind is heading into the 25+ range (which we don't often get) that the LEIs start taking over. In that range I'll be putting the foils away anyway.

I know the Woo heights can be a bit contentious, but I think they are still a good tool that can give you a long term trend on how you are doing, and on how changes you make impact your results. Individual results may not be 100% reliable, but as long as they are consistent, you can gauge how changes you are making impact your jumps over time. They do become addictive though, and sessions I would normally just go out and have fun, I will instead put up a bigger kite and see how high I can go instead...

Epic... but to summarize .... don't send past 12, sheet out and in on the way down.

Really good explanation of it all @Jones. What foils are you using and for what conditions? I am in Townsville, and like you I also wouldn't pull out my foils on winds any bigger than 25k, but yeah they seldom happen so I am usually out on a 12 or 13m foil. On 10knots or less I have a 19m but it's way hard to get a decent jump, as it hates being redirected (Speed2). That old dog loves just sitting around 11 or 1oclock, and the only hope of a jump is speed downwind and a sudden pop. The Speed3 15m was the sweet-spot kite for me up here. Regretful sale. TT rider only.

Man this is all fantastic info and very stoked for the effort in the posts. Lots to digest and we are getting hammered by rain so it might be a while before I get out and practice. Just going to read this all over and over. Big cheers from me.

This is the video that got me started jumping foils. You sheet out a lot once you send...



But now I see he sheets out too much and too early on the redirect.

You can send it fast and hard with a yank on the bar, and the launch is violent and fun, but it's easy to over-sheet in light wind...

To reiterate what Jones said -- bar finesse is key with foils.

And let them fly.

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NorthernKitesAUS said..
Really good explanation of it all @Jones. What foils are you using and for what conditions? I am in Townsville, and like you I also wouldn't pull out my foils on winds any bigger than 25k, but yeah they seldom happen so I am usually out on a 12 or 13m foil. On 10knots or less I have a 19m but it's way hard to get a decent jump, as it hates being redirected (Speed2). That old dog loves just sitting around 11 or 1oclock, and the only hope of a jump is speed downwind and a sudden pop. The Speed3 15m was the sweet-spot kite for me up here. Regretful sale. TT rider only.

I'm currently lucky enough to have 4 Sonic FRs - 18m, 15m, 11m, and 9m. All except the 11m I managed to get second hand for a real bargain price - too good to pass up. We get a lot of under 12knot days here, and even more under 15 knot days, so the 11m and 15m would be used the most (depending on the time of year), followed by the 18m and the 9m would be the least used.

I can be easily powered enough for unhooked tricks from 10 knots on the 18m, even less if I'm not unhooking. From that point up, it's just a matter of how much power I want to have... I've had the 9m out in near 30knots, but it is a real handful, and landing in over 25 usually ends up with the bridles in a real mess.

I had (actually still have, but no longer use) a Spleene X19, which was sort of halfway between the Speed 2 and Speed 3 in terms of design. It is a completely different beast to the 18m Sonics. The Sonic is way faster turning (like wayyyy faster), is easy to jump reasonably high on (I've done 8+ meters on the Woo in around 13 knots a few times), and I can even downloop it on 21 meter lines when I'm coming down from a jump. I would have been struggling to hold the Spleene in 13 knots, would really have struggled to get any height, and definitely wouldn't have even attempted a downloop.

I agree that the 15m is a better sweet spot than the 18m. If it was consistently over 12/13knots, I would more than likely take the 15m over the 18m. The bigger kites do have a very narrow usable range, but if those are the conditions you get the most, then I think they are worth it. I only had the 15m and 11m quiver for a long while, which was great for my conditions, but then the 9m and then the 18m came up locally for prices I just couldn't pass up.

Hope that helps...

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Kamikuza said..
This is the video that got me started jumping foils. You sheet out a lot once you send...

But now I see he sheets out too much and too early on the redirect.

That's a good video to start showing the different approach to jumping the foils, but on pretty much all of the jumps he did multiple things wrong. I'm not knocking the guy - just saying that we can use that to point out things he isn't doing well.

1 - His edging isn't good. He looks more like he is just getting lifted off the water. To get more height you need to to help the kite by trying to get a bit of 'pop' upwards.

2 - Kite trim - it looks like the kite isn't trimmed in enough. When he sheets in, he starts going downwind a lot, which means the kite is probably backstalling. It could also be that the kite isn't vertical enough, but because his upward movement seems to slow down pretty abruptly, I would bet that the kite is stalling.

3 - Going too fast. You don't need to be going warp speed to go high, it's much more important to keep a good edge and get good, vertical pop. If you can hold more speed, sure you can go higher, but you will still get much more height from a controlled launch.

4 - Vertical jump. In some of the jumps, it looks like he went a fair bit past 12 and swung under.

5 - Redirect too slow/too unpowered. Most of the landings end up with the kite folding. Means he didn't keep enough power in the kite and redirect it enough when he was about to land.

On your 12m Hyperlink in the same conditions, I would be surprised if you couldn't double the height he was getting with a decent technique.

I agree with everything that Jonesy says with the exception of trimming your kite not to back stall.
For a newbie foil convert it makes perfect sense to trim for no back stall. That way there is less chance of hamfisted harsh landings.

But for the advanced foil flyer back stall is an advantage in some situations. The back stalled pivot loop is really useful particularly on the hydrofoil for down the line wave riding and ultra light water starts, Also you can get a real super buttery soft slow landing with a full back stall bar in just before landing. Essentially you have more control over the jump if you have the option to take the kite past its no-backstall postion. Perhaps this is more important for land kiting where you must land soft everytime or you start breaking ankles etc. Also my land jumps distance may need to be checked or extended mid air also, if i go too far/short i could hit driftwood, rock wall, boulders the ocean. This back stall option can haul you down sooner or carry you longer depending on how you fly the kite mid jump.

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Plummet said..
I agree with everything that Jonesy says with the exception of trimming your kite not to back stall.
For a newbie foil convert it makes perfect sense to trim for no back stall. That way there is less chance of hamfisted harsh landings.

But for the advanced foil flyer back stall is an advantage in some situations. The back stalled pivot loop is really useful particularly on the hydrofoil for down the line wave riding and ultra light water starts, Also you can get a real super buttery soft slow landing with a full back stall bar in just before landing. Essentially you have more control over the jump if you have the option to take the kite past its no-backstall postion. Perhaps this is more important for land kiting where you must land soft everytime or you start breaking ankles etc. Also my land jumps distance may need to be checked or extended mid air also, if i go too far/short i could hit driftwood, rock wall, boulders the ocean. This back stall option can haul you down sooner or carry you longer depending on how you fly the kite mid jump.

Yep, absolutely agree with all that.The ability to be able to backstall in a controlled way (it's nothing like backstalling an inflatable) can be very useful. When I'm on the hydrofoil, in super light wind, or doing super downwind angle speed runs, or when jumping big in over 25k, I would always have the kite trimmed so I can backstall and drop the kite back if I need to.

Having the kite trimmed so that it won't backstall is useful for:
- Unhooking - this is the primary reason I have the kite trimmed that way. Backstalls kill the unhooked moves, and are especially bad if you don't land cleanly and can't hook in while you still have forward momentum (you won't be hooked in and the kite will be backing down toward the water). This is what I enjoy the most and would be over 90% of my kiting.
- Easy big air jumps - If you want to just pull the bar into the stopper when you jump and not think too much about it
- New foil kiters - I have seen a lot of people that have got new foil kites, and you can see them always backstalling the kite mid jump, or even mid sine when they are trying to get more power (because they are used to pulling the bar right in on the inflatables at the bottom of the downstroke). Trimming so they can't backstall if they go back to their inflatable muscle memory just helps remove a lot of the initial frustration of the crossover.

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Jonesey32 said..

NorthernKitesAUS said..
Really good explanation of it all @Jones. What foils are you using and for what conditions? I am in Townsville, and like you I also wouldn't pull out my foils on winds any bigger than 25k, but yeah they seldom happen so I am usually out on a 12 or 13m foil. On 10knots or less I have a 19m but it's way hard to get a decent jump, as it hates being redirected (Speed2). That old dog loves just sitting around 11 or 1oclock, and the only hope of a jump is speed downwind and a sudden pop. The Speed3 15m was the sweet-spot kite for me up here. Regretful sale. TT rider only.

I had (actually still have, but no longer use) a Spleene X19, which was sort of halfway between the Speed 2 and Speed 3 in terms of design. It is a completely different beast to the 18m Sonics.

Hope that helps...

Yes it does help. The newer designs do really go faster across the wind-window, which is why I once flew an original Chrono, comparing it to my old Pyscho III equivalent in size, and wow... I over sheeted and it went way behind me that on landing, the entire kite collapsed into a heap. Recently I've been flying Pansh Aurora II 12 and 15m, and the Genesis 12m kites (yes I know - "crappy" kites compared to the mainstream), but for the price and ability to kitesurf and do some decent jumps, they are worth their weight in gold. The 15m A2 kite is just as good as the Speed3 15m imo. The 12m is even better. PANSH bridle design has improved 10-fold compared to 3 years ago.

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Jonesey32 said..

Kamikuza said..
This is the video that got me started jumping foils. You sheet out a lot once you send...

But now I see he sheets out too much and too early on the redirect.

That's a good video to start showing the different approach to jumping the foils, but on pretty much all of the jumps he did multiple things wrong. I'm not knocking the guy - just saying that we can use that to point out things he isn't doing well.

1 - His edging isn't good. He looks more like he is just getting lifted off the water. To get more height you need to to help the kite by trying to get a bit of 'pop' upwards.

2 - Kite trim - it looks like the kite isn't trimmed in enough. When he sheets in, he starts going downwind a lot, which means the kite is probably backstalling. It could also be that the kite isn't vertical enough, but because his upward movement seems to slow down pretty abruptly, I would bet that the kite is stalling.

3 - Going too fast. You don't need to be going warp speed to go high, it's much more important to keep a good edge and get good, vertical pop. If you can hold more speed, sure you can go higher, but you will still get much more height from a controlled launch.

4 - Vertical jump. In some of the jumps, it looks like he went a fair bit past 12 and swung under.

5 - Redirect too slow/too unpowered. Most of the landings end up with the kite folding. Means he didn't keep enough power in the kite and redirect it enough when he was about to land.

On your 12m Hyperlink in the same conditions, I would be surprised if you couldn't double the height he was getting with a decent technique.

Yeah it's not great eh but it's a starting point.

Thanks for spelling it out, I hate typing long screeds on the phone, and I'd already lost one long post because of the forum software...!

Best days jumping on foils for me were so powered that any sheeting in meant going downwind... Cruise upwind slowly with the kite at the very edge of the window, then sheet in and let yourself bear off, then spot the kicker and huck it

I think Plummet had said already that as much speed as you can still control the edge and a good pop gives max air.

The Fish

Go back to basics...
1, Stand in the water with no board, throw the kite side as fast as you can.
2, Memorise what bar position gave you the most speed (speed goes with lift...)
3, Now try the same - but keeping the kite slightly in front of you (let it drag you but take note)
4, Get out on the TT and adjust it all now you know where the kite produces lift.
5, Adjust for landing when you throw it forward - choking foils always unintentionally messes everything up.
6, Dont be scared to aggressively fly the kite up in the air - youll learn the boundaries of what you can do with that size.

7, If you can get all that - Learn to heli-Loop your landings... yes you have to initiate everything to your Egg Timer but it opens up another doorway of 2nd lift fun. Be sure to have plenty of room down wind