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Kamikuza said..

Of course it'll breach more if you ride it like a 90cm mast Requires a bit of an adaption but is better...for my version of free ride.

Given how flexible the Moses 7Xcm mast the guys here have, I'm not surprised you notice no difference -- they wobble as much as the longer ones

EDIT: oh if that's your thing, that's cool. I know some windfoilers like flex. My definition of free ride involves as little as possible.

Wow, seems we have an expert here...

To say that a 71 carbon Moses and 101 are wobbly you must be either a racer or an overweighted rider. If you are the latter, don't blame it on the foils, they are absolutely fine for a vast majority of riders.

Please enlighten us with what gear you're riding.

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jobic said..
Wow, seems we have an expert here...

To say that a 71 carbon Moses and 101 are wobbly you must be either a racer or an overweighted rider. If you are the latter, don't blame it on the foils, they are absolutely fine for a vast majority of riders.

Please enlighten us with what gear you're riding.

I don't think rider weight is relevant when the foils are sitting upside down on the beach and you can flex the mast by hand...

I'm sure it is fine for riders for whom it's fine it's not for me. I thought I said that already. Less is more -- I don't even like deck pads that feel mushy.

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Kamikuza said..

jobic said..
Wow, seems we have an expert here...

To say that a 71 carbon Moses and 101 are wobbly you must be either a racer or an overweighted rider. If you are the latter, don't blame it on the foils, they are absolutely fine for a vast majority of riders.

Please enlighten us with what gear you're riding.

I don't think rider weight is relevant when the foils are sitting upside down on the beach and you can flex the mast by hand...

I'm sure it is fine for riders for whom it's fine it's not for me. I thought I said that already. Less is more -- I don't even like deck pads that feel mushy.

Ok, so you haven't ridden them, just tried to flex it by hand? Have you tried doing this on Enata, Mike's Lab , Levitaz or the likes?

I'd really like to know what you're comparing it to. I bet it's either a Duotone or an Axis...

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jobic said..
Ok, so you haven't ridden them, just tried to flex it by hand?

Have you tried doing this on Enata, Mike's Lab , Levitaz or the likes?

I'd really like to know what you're comparing it to.

I bet it's either a Duotone or an Axis...

No. Yes.
I'm afraid to ride them -- there's no dealer here so it's private gear and I'd hate to bust it. The lake has already gobbled a Spotz that snapped off at the board, and an entire Moses set up when the rider couldn't relaunch.
Having ridden longer and shorter masts, I think I can gauge how it'll feel

No, no, yes, J-shapes count? Levitaz also has that super-thin fuselage that flexes independent to the mast...and we've a Levitate SUP wing in the club house that has water sloshing around inside

Pretty much anything I can lay my hands on.

Why? Are those brands widely known for being particularly rigid?

I like as rigid as possible a foil. Not everyone does. That's fine...isn't it?

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jobic said..
To say that a 71 carbon Moses and 101 are wobbly you must be either a racer

Racers don't like wobbly foils either?

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Kamikuza said..

jobic said..
Ok, so you haven't ridden them, just tried to flex it by hand?

Have you tried doing this on Enata, Mike's Lab , Levitaz or the likes?

I'd really like to know what you're comparing it to.

I bet it's either a Duotone or an Axis...

No. Yes.
I'm afraid to ride them -- there's no dealer here so it's private gear and I'd hate to bust it. The lake has already gobbled a Spotz that snapped off at the board, and an entire Moses set up when the rider couldn't relaunch.
Having ridden longer and shorter masts, I think I can gauge how it'll feel

No, no, yes, J-shapes count? Levitaz also has that super-thin fuselage that flexes independent to the mast...and we've a Levitate SUP wing in the club house that has water sloshing around inside

Pretty much anything I can lay my hands on.

Why? Are those brands widely known for being particularly rigid?

I like as rigid as possible a foil. Not everyone does. That's fine...isn't it?

jobic said..
To say that a 71 carbon Moses and 101 are wobbly you must be either a racer

Racers don't like wobbly foils either?

Thanks, now I know:

"keyboard warrior". Never ridden said set up but can comment on pretty much anything....

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jobic said..
Thanks, now I know:

"keyboard warrior". Never ridden said set up but can comment on pretty much anything....

People whose opinion I respect and like the same thing in foils I do ... *have* ridden them ... and have made comments on the flexibility of the mast that confirm my hypothesis

And how would you tell them they're wrong...?

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Kamikuza said..

jobic said..
Thanks, now I know:

"keyboard warrior". Never ridden said set up but can comment on pretty much anything....

People whose opinion I respect and like the same thing in foils I do ... *have* ridden them ... and have made comments on the flexibility of the mast that confirm my hypothesis

And how would you tell them they're wrong...?

Well, I doubt that you've tried the Moses as I don't believe the wobble you mentioned.


I was looking to upgrade my Axis surf which has been an ok beginner set up and got to try a few carbon set up. Ended up settling on Onda with 91 mast. Much nicer to ride than the Axis and super happy with the upgrade. Not going back to heavy alloy set up that's for sure.

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jobic said..
Well, I doubt that you've tried the Moses as I don't believe the wobble you mentioned.


I was looking to upgrade my Axis surf which has been an ok beginner set up and got to try a few carbon set up. Ended up settling on Onda with 91 mast. Much nicer to ride than the Axis and super happy with the upgrade. Not going back to heavy alloy set up that's for sure.

No need to doubt: I've told you that I haven't ... but people whose opinions I respect etc etc have and confirmed etc etc. There's even a thread at KF that mentions it...

I'm really happy you like your gear I like mine too. I like the shorter mast better cos it flexes much less than the longer one Yes that small amount bothers me but it clearly doesn't bother everyone.

"heavy"
Oh you're one of those

The reason the mast is lighter is because ... it's not as stiff as "alloy" ehh, it's a compromise -- make it as stiff as "alloy", you add material, weight and cost.

When comparing the flex on a Moses carbon mast on the beach you're not getting any idea of how it performs on the water. If you have a close look at a Moses mast you'll notice the top where it attaches to the board is formed as one piece and massively strong and completely flex free. This is the point where flex can create a problem as it's right under your feet which are rocking this point with a lot of leverage from the board. It's also the point where you'll see alloy masts bend when abused.
As you follow the mast down to the fuselage attachment point it tapers to give less drag while still retaining sufficient stiffness. By the time you're 71cm, 91cm or more below the board the amount of leverage you can exert on the foil mast has diminished significantly but the decrease in drag is significant.
Moses has been making carbon fibre masts and foils for quite a while and will stand by their product performance and if it fails. However I've yet to see a failure in the Moses gear I've sold and the feedback performance wise is

If anyone's got one of those floppy Moses masts knocking around 2nd hand I'd be interested

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natho6026961 said..
If anyone's got one of those floppy Moses masts knocking around 2nd hand I'd be interested

Me 2
I'd like a 90cm + or - carbon Moses mast.
I have a 71cm.

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drsurf said..
When comparing the flex on a Moses carbon mast on the beach you're not getting any idea of how it performs on the water. If you have a close look at a Moses mast you'll notice the top where it attaches to the board is formed as one piece and massively strong and completely flex free. This is the point where flex can create a problem as it's right under your feet which are rocking this point with a lot of leverage from the board. It's also the point where you'll see alloy masts bend when abused.
As you follow the mast down to the fuselage attachment point it tapers to give less drag while still retaining sufficient stiffness. By the time you're 71cm, 91cm or more below the board the amount of leverage you can exert on the foil mast has diminished significantly but the decrease in drag is significant.
Moses has been making carbon fibre masts and foils for quite a while and will stand by their product performance and if it fails. However I've yet to see a failure in the Moses gear I've sold and the feedback performance wise is

Correct. That's the advantage of carbon -- you can shape the "outline" and alter the profile down the length of the mast, and tune the flex (!) which is impossible with an extruded mast. (Considering Zeeko never bothered with a collar at the mast-to-plate interface for a long time, I don't think that's much of an issue ... until you start using bigger wings.)

The disadvantage to carbon is the increased cost and -- for the gear I'm interested in -- it won't be as stiff: You aren't getting a mast that's 4x stiffer when you spend 4x more on it. That's an objective fact, not opinion.

They may well be "sufficiently" stiff for many foilers. But the point I'm making that you seem to be intentionally missing is:

For the gear *I* want to use, for how *I* want to ride -- *I* want as little flex as possible, and *I* can notice the difference between a 90cm and 75cm mast.

No need to be salty about my opinions and the facts

Does a longer mast help extend the top end performance of a kite?
I went from a 71cm mast to 96cm and this seemed to be possible with the same kite.

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drsurf said..
When comparing the flex on a Moses carbon mast on the beach you're not getting any idea of how it performs on the water. If you have a close look at a Moses mast you'll notice the top where it attaches to the board is formed as one piece and massively strong and completely flex free. This is the point where flex can create a problem as it's right under your feet which are rocking this point with a lot of leverage from the board. It's also the point where you'll see alloy masts bend when abused.
As you follow the mast down to the fuselage attachment point it tapers to give less drag while still retaining sufficient stiffness. By the time you're 71cm, 91cm or more below the board the amount of leverage you can exert on the foil mast has diminished significantly but the decrease in drag is significant.
Moses has been making carbon fibre masts and foils for quite a while and will stand by their product performance and if it fails. However I've yet to see a failure in the Moses gear I've sold and the feedback performance wise is

Thanks for this Dr Surf its a really important point. I used to go crazy when making race foils and crew would come along and twist everything around in the beach and make a firm judgment on the foil. Despite the well considered taper.
Moses have a few new Carbon struts that have a larger section. 72 and 82. Available December .
Designed for the extra big wings.
On the length I find it really hard to go down lower than 90. Once you go up its hard to go back down.
From customers input and my own the noticeable reduction in manoeuvrability comes from anything above 1mtr.

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benmj said..

drsurf said..
When comparing the flex on a Moses carbon mast on the beach you're not getting any idea of how it performs on the water. If you have a close look at a Moses mast you'll notice the top where it attaches to the board is formed as one piece and massively strong and completely flex free. This is the point where flex can create a problem as it's right under your feet which are rocking this point with a lot of leverage from the board. It's also the point where you'll see alloy masts bend when abused.
As you follow the mast down to the fuselage attachment point it tapers to give less drag while still retaining sufficient stiffness. By the time you're 71cm, 91cm or more below the board the amount of leverage you can exert on the foil mast has diminished significantly but the decrease in drag is significant.
Moses has been making carbon fibre masts and foils for quite a while and will stand by their product performance and if it fails. However I've yet to see a failure in the Moses gear I've sold and the feedback performance wise is

Thanks for this Dr Surf its a really important point. I used to go crazy when making race foils and crew would come along and twist everything around in the beach and make a firm judgment on the foil. Despite the well considered taper.
Moses have a few new Carbon struts that have a larger section. 72 and 82. Available December .
Designed for the extra big wings.
On the length I find it really hard to go down lower than 90. Once you go up its hard to go back down.
From customers input and my own the noticeable reduction in manoeuvrability comes from anything above 1mtr.

Cos if you don't like flex and you can bend it with your hands, how much worse when you put your weight on it? Things that bother one ... is bothersome.

Gunnar's already said the aluminum mast is stuffed than the carbon...

The Aluminium mast at 75 is for sure stiffer than the carbon 71. Its way bigger.
Also the foil shape is not as perfect as the carbon and the feel/feedback of carbon is way nicer
Aluminum is way cheaper
Here are the basic stats after taking a few quick measures. Against the Moses Alu foil which is great and well priced if I do say so.
Weight 2.55kg V 1.25kg
width 115mm V 103mm
Thickness 12mm v 17 mm

So if a mast does flex what impact does it have on your ride... Looser turns? I assume it will absorb some of your input efficiency till it straightens..
Does the amount of mast under the surface when flexing occurs make a difference?
Cheers
AP

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benmj said..
The Aluminium mast at 75 is for sure stiffer than the carbon 71. Its way bigger.
Also the foil shape is not as perfect as the carbon and the feel/feedback of carbon is way nicer
Aluminum is way cheaper
Here are the basic stats after taking a few quick measures. Against the Moses Alu foil which is great and well priced if I do say so.
Weight 2.55kg V 1.25kg
width 115mm V 103mm
Thickness 12mm v 17 mm

Yeah but Kami likes it stiff! Never mind the performance....

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AquaPlow said..
So if a mast does flex what impact does it have on your ride... Looser turns? I assume it will absorb some of your input efficiency till it straightens..
Does the amount of mast under the surface when flexing occurs make a difference?
Cheers
AP

I will loosen the bolts on my Ali mast plate and let you know.

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jobic said..
Yeah but Kami likes it stiff! Never mind the performance....

Define "performance"?

Crispness of response, stability, rigidity, glide, light wind ability...those are some of my performance criteria.

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benmj said..
The Aluminium mast at 75 is for sure stiffer than the carbon 71. Its way bigger.
Also the foil shape is not as perfect as the carbon and the feel/feedback of carbon is way nicer
Aluminum is way cheaper
Here are the basic stats after taking a few quick measures. Against the Moses Alu foil which is great and well priced if I do say so.
Weight 2.55kg V 1.25kg
width 115mm V 103mm
Thickness 12mm v 17 mm

2.55kg v 1.25kg? For what exactly?

Just the Axis 75cm mast is 1.45kg, so either weight there is weirdly heavy or unbelievably light...

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AquaPlow said..
So if a mast does flex what impact does it have on your ride... Looser turns? I assume it will absorb some of your input efficiency till it straightens..
Does the amount of mast under the surface when flexing occurs make a difference?
Cheers
AP

Lag in response and a tendency to ignore fine input.

Wobble when your weight isn't stable. Sometimes it feels like the foil is moving independent of the board, sometimes the foil is solid but the board is wobbling.

IMO more noticeable lag when the foil is deep, more wobble when shallow.

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Kamikuza said..

benmj said..
The Aluminium mast at 75 is for sure stiffer than the carbon 71. Its way bigger.
Also the foil shape is not as perfect as the carbon and the feel/feedback of carbon is way nicer
Aluminum is way cheaper
Here are the basic stats after taking a few quick measures. Against the Moses Alu foil which is great and well priced if I do say so.
Weight 2.55kg V 1.25kg
width 115mm V 103mm
Thickness 12mm v 17 mm

2.55kg v 1.25kg? For what exactly?

Just the Axis 75cm mast is 1.45kg, so either weight there is weirdly heavy or unbelievably light...

I expect the Moses aluminum includes the plate so a direct comparison to the carbon.

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Kamikuza said..

AquaPlow said..
So if a mast does flex what impact does it have on your ride... Looser turns? I assume it will absorb some of your input efficiency till it straightens..
Does the amount of mast under the surface when flexing occurs make a difference?
Cheers
AP

Lag in response and a tendency to ignore fine input.

Wobble when your weight isn't stable. Sometimes it feels like the foil is moving independent of the board, sometimes the foil is solid but the board is wobbling.

IMO more noticeable lag when the foil is deep, more wobble when shallow.

Thanks Kami..
Have 2 masts now. One slaps a little in the top plate.. Will check wing movement..
Probably try a wrap of gaffa tape to tighten..
Totally sure my level of unrefined tap dancing trying to control myself. Is biggest problem...
Cheers
AP

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AquaPlow said..

Kamikuza said..

AquaPlow said..
So if a mast does flex what impact does it have on your ride... Looser turns? I assume it will absorb some of your input efficiency till it straightens..
Does the amount of mast under the surface when flexing occurs make a difference?
Cheers
AP

Lag in response and a tendency to ignore fine input.

Wobble when your weight isn't stable. Sometimes it feels like the foil is moving independent of the board, sometimes the foil is solid but the board is wobbling.

IMO more noticeable lag when the foil is deep, more wobble when shallow.

Thanks Kami..
Have 2 masts now. One slaps a little in the top plate.. Will check wing movement..
Probably try a wrap of gaffa tape to tighten..
Totally sure my level of unrefined tap dancing trying to control myself. Is biggest problem...
Cheers
AP

Unless the bolts are loose it "shouldn't matter" - Zeeko for example didn't use a collared plate for years.
The mast/fuse and fuse/wing mount are critical points for rigidity IMO You don't want the mast flexing longitudinally or twisting, and you don't want the wing flexing laterally. Or at least, I don't

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warwickl said..

Kamikuza said..

benmj said..
The Aluminium mast at 75 is for sure stiffer than the carbon 71. Its way bigger.
Also the foil shape is not as perfect as the carbon and the feel/feedback of carbon is way nicer
Aluminum is way cheaper
Here are the basic stats after taking a few quick measures. Against the Moses Alu foil which is great and well priced if I do say so.
Weight 2.55kg V 1.25kg
width 115mm V 103mm
Thickness 12mm v 17 mm

2.55kg v 1.25kg? For what exactly?

Just the Axis 75cm mast is 1.45kg, so either weight there is weirdly heavy or unbelievably light...

I expect the Moses aluminum includes the plate so a direct comparison to the carbon.

And the plate weighs over a kilo? Hmm...

IIRC J-shapes listed their mast with Tuttle a "about 2kg" so 1.25kg for plate and mast is unbelievably light

Back on topic...

Tried 82cm mast last night. Really about as long as I want to go. Still prefer the 75...

Here is my experience , I have Moses carbon 71cm mast and a 35.4 in Slingshot aluminium mast with an adapter to Moses.
I use Moses wings 683, 790 and 873.
My next comment may say more about me than the gear.
I am happy with this gear and do not have any issues with mast flexing on either.
I have not used the 873 on the Slingshot mast.
Soon I will have a Moses 82cm carbon mast as I wish to try that length for both SUP and kite foiling.
I admit I am not an aggressive style foiler.

Just measured the plate adaptor .75 kg And of course yes part of the 2.5 kg so you could compare

Isn't jibing easier with a longer mast at higher apeeds without the risk of breaching?