Whats the general thoughts on the lowest you can go with a 17m SLE kite on a foil..

I have a 2013 17m Dyno, and I am yet to find a day that I can't get going.....while the kite is in the sky..

BUT! unfortunately pushing the limits seems to end in the kite falling out of the sky : (

What are experienced foilers getting out in. . Basically it seems that if my kite is in the sky above my head...not falling out of the sky, I'm going....but what wind strength is that? it seems to me its about 10knts Av according to BOM. I expect that to lower a little in summer with thicker seabreeze.

The problem seems to be that in light airs, a lull may be dropping to 6knts and then the kite falls out of the sky (if you happen to get caught with the kite at the edge of the window getting your board organised or the likes)...

obviously once up and foiling much less wind is needed, but it seems to me that the critical wind strength is that needed to keep your kite in the sky to launch or recover from a crash etc

Does a foil kite help prevent the issue of the kite falling out of the sky in lulls, or are they really just a racing machine with little advantage to the general public..

Sorry its a loaded question......

In short, yes a foil kite makes things easier as they don't tend to fall out of the sky in lulls :) The construction and lack of a bladder means they are very light, and are at their most stable at 12. This means you have lots of time when in the water to faff about and get sorted. Relaunch in light winds is easier than LEI too because you can reverse them off the water when leading edge down.

From my experience using the Flysurfer Speed 4 and the Sonic kites, the Speed 4's are much easier ( for me) in LW than the full on race machines. Partly this is because of the Lotus fabric which is lighter than the Sonic Fabric, allowing the Speeds to literally float in the sky in almost no breeze. Much easier to relaunch too.

Maybe one of the Ozone authorities might comment on the Chrono V2 versus R1 in terms of useability ?

Thanks James. I ended up getting a second hand chrono...rolled it out of the bag yesterday...they are a daunting looking kite..all the spiders web thick rigging.... its certainly built for the lightest of breezes. Will give it a land run this weekend hopefully...I 'd like to test it back to back with my 17 Dyno.

Congrats and welcome to the dark side ! The bridle is not as scary as it looks, check your front / rear line lengths for symmetry and equal when bar sheeted in, and think of it as a wing when you fly it. Sheeting in = putting the brakes on. They want to fly fast, so after you turn always sheet out to let it accelerate and generate power. It's a slightly different technique to LEI but very easy to master.

In light wind pulling the trimmer on will help as it will stop you stalling the kite as easily.

mate you will love the kite in the light winds. It is amazing. With that kite though I recommend getting some info on checking and tuning the speed system. I was flying mine with it out of whack for a while when learning and it made life very difficult . Once it was tuned though so much easier all round.

I'm out foiling regularly with Jamesperth in red arrows. Even he doesn't understand how I can manage on a 12m inflatable when he's using a 15m or 21m foil kite :)

With lots of experience in marginal wind you would realize it's possible to enjoy a foil session even when the kite doesn't quite stay up above your head. The key is about moving the kite constantly, especially when you're stopping, changing direction, etc. Loops are also often necessary in sub 10 knots to keep the kite flying and are also often essential just to waterstart. If your kite falls out of the sky below 10 knots it's simply because you're not moving it enough, don't hesitate to throw a downloop as well to recover from a stall or if you happen to have the kite too low in the window to steer it back up.

I find very large inflatable kites to be too heavy and slow for foiling in very low winds. IMO a lightweight, powerful and fast turning inflatable 12m kite does a better job on long lines than a 17m on normal lines. That being said, below 7-8 knots, I find the large foil kites to have an advantage over inflatables. I remember using James's 21m in about 4-6 knots and was cranking upwind on the hydrofoil (video below). No way I was able to get going on my 12m in these conditions.



As you said the quality of the wind is also an important factor. A stable 8 knots breeze is much better than wind varying from 5 to 10 knots. Air temperature (wind density) also plays an important role.

So yeah you don't really need a foil kite to have great hydrofoil sessions in low winds, unless you really want to push the limits and get down to below 7 knots winds...but then you're mostly asking for trouble and will be swimming lots no matter which kite you have, unless you have some serious skills. Also keep in mind a large foil kite is much harder to downloop if you need to do a quick recovery for example if your kite ends up too low in the window and cannot be steered back up...that's how most foil kiters end up swimming in... an inflatable kite will easily downloop even from as low as 10' or 2'Oclock in very low winds. Can't do that on a large foil kite.

Christian

Cool. So I tested the 12m chrono side by side with my 17m Dyno..

Wind was holey 6-10knots, but it was shifting bearing while I was flying it so it was pretty crappy.

The chrono does a lot of of stalling, the stronger puffs come through and it pulls well past 12, I mean well past...then the wind would back off to 6 knots.... u can guess the result.. But, wow , when you drive it through the wind window it rockets and pulls really consistently and FAST. I think it is awesome, and if the wind hadn't been as gusty it would have sat nicely and been usable..

My 17m dyno suffered far less from the gusts and stayed in the sky. But when it came through the window it was a slow grunty power that felt pretty unexciting after the chrono..

I'm nervous about how to deal with the stalling issues with the chrono if I was out on the water...but once I get the hang of it it will be the bomb. It must be a serious handful in 15 knots on a foil.

Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

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patto1987 said..
Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

Sweet. Thanks Patto. Good to know. I'll test that out.

Also keep in mind when your riding in the water it dont go past 12, you just go better upwind ;)

Just gota be careful if your sitting in the water ;)

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skebstebamal said...

patto1987 said..
Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

Sweet. Thanks Patto. Good to know. I'll test that out.

Sheeting in slows the kite down (on a foil kite they call it a brake for that reason)... If in on the beach I let all the trim out to 100% and then sheet it basically fully in.. Even it gusts etc it just sits there... If it starts to fall back in the window then sheet out slowly and sheet in after it starts to move forward again..

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patto1987 said..

skebstebamal said...

patto1987 said..
Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

Sweet. Thanks Patto. Good to know. I'll test that out.

Sheeting in slows the kite down (on a foil kite they call it a brake for that reason)... If in on the beach I let all the trim out to 100% and then sheet it basically fully in.. Even it gusts etc it just sits there... If it starts to fall back in the window then sheet out slowly and sheet in after it starts to move forward again..

Sweet. Thanks m8. I'll give it a test on the weekend..

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patto1987 said..

skebstebamal said...

patto1987 said..
Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

Sweet. Thanks Patto. Good to know. I'll test that out.

Sheeting in slows the kite down (on a foil kite they call it a brake for that reason)... If in on the beach I let all the trim out to 100% and then sheet it basically fully in.. Even it gusts etc it just sits there... If it starts to fall back in the window then sheet out slowly and sheet in after it starts to move forward again..

Yeah same thing happens with most foils. My PANSH 12m can pull me nicely in 12knots but anything less and I am playing with the trim all the time to find sweet spots in the wind. But it is doable. Just yesterday the winds were around 13 to 16knots ENE and most 15m and 17m kites had no hope. They lulled a lot and fell out of the sky. But the Chronos and one FS Speed 3 15mt were all lit including myself on the 12m PANSH Aurora. Nice kite that.

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Loftywinds said..

patto1987 said..

skebstebamal said...

patto1987 said..
Keep the bar sheeted in on the Chrono to stop it going past 12 and stalling... Seems counter intuitive after LEIs are the opposite.. The Chrono should hang in the air in basically no wind at 12..

Sweet. Thanks Patto. Good to know. I'll test that out.

Sheeting in slows the kite down (on a foil kite they call it a brake for that reason)... If in on the beach I let all the trim out to 100% and then sheet it basically fully in.. Even it gusts etc it just sits there... If it starts to fall back in the window then sheet out slowly and sheet in after it starts to move forward again..

Yeah same thing happens with most foils. My PANSH 12m can pull me nicely in 12knots but anything less and I am playing with the trim all the time to find sweet spots in the wind. But it is doable. Just yesterday the winds were around 13 to 16knots ENE and most 15m and 17m kites had no hope. They lulled a lot and fell out of the sky. But the Chronos and one FS Speed 3 15mt were all lit including myself on the 12m PANSH Aurora. Nice kite that.

I am reading all this and seems to me there are no real differences in technique described here for light wind kiting with either Soft kites of Lei Kites.
if your kite is flying past 12O'Clock yes you sheet in. If your kite is backing up or stalling yes you sheet out.
In fact light wind kiting usually rewards you depowering your kite.
Where you need to look at for light wind kiting is weight and LEI's over 12m are plane to heavy. The new LEI's of single or no strut design are keeping the weight down, and proving their worth whilst giving you time to get sorted in a crash before relaunching.
The weight issue is being tackled by all companies in their own ways but be careful of what choices they make to get the light weight they need to win races.
I've done a lot of racing over the years(not kite) and there is always a cost for less weight, and it is always paid in money.

Also if you are not racing then be double wary. As it is most often the case that the winners are not usually winners because they are on XYZ brand of gear.
They are winners because of Talent, training, tuning and preparedness. in Sailing you also have to add Strategy and wind guessing, plus rules. etc.
there is no doubt more reasons and this only dilutes the value gear adds to the winning.

I am only saying all this because I have seen many racing classes destroyed by a technological oneupmanship that gains nothing but stopping the average guy from joining in. leaving the niche group to themselves in obscurity.

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RAL INN said..

In fact light wind kiting usually rewards you depowering your kite. .

So you get more powerr from depowering your kite? Go on, call it "trim" instead :D

No. I can't do it.