do it

Free riding is the desire.
Can anyone comment on Fishfoil for free riding and capability in performing transitions?

dorothyinste said..
Merely a personal opinion, however it is my experience that full carbon racing foils are the best for free riding foils. Race foils are extremely agile and respond immediately to rider input, by way of subtle centre of gravity changes. The high aspect ratio of the wings, requires the foil to 'fly' faster for stability. However the same high aspect also means more manoeuvrability at lower speeds. The trick is to fly the foil at low speed and maintain control, without stalling. It is about balance and flow.
If you are able to overcome the fear of flying the foil at speed, one would highly recommend the fire fish. You will not regret it.

What minimum speed for crusing and what is the board speed required to get up on the foil ?
Thanks

You ride Clouds yeah? You want to freeride? Look at the videos of people whose styles you like - are any of them riding race foils?

Stringywings, zeeko carver, lift - all these and are more than fast enough for freeriding and also have enough low end to play with riding swell and more creative aspects of freeriding.

IMO (and others will disagree), freeriding implies freedom - and freedom equals simplicity equals strapless, and strapless equals lower average and much lower minimum speeds than racers ever want to go - therefore, lower aspect wings, just like lower aspect kites. It's like surfing a mal - you want a stylish narrow stance, the opposite of the wide (ugly) stance that racers in their footstraps use to retain control at v-max.

Another way of thinking about it is this - for me, freeriding is about riding the foil. The kite is simply a way to get flying - once up I want to minimise the kite's involvement a lot of the time (riding swell downwind, carving turns) - hence the smallest possible kite to get me going with max depower (Cloud). For racers the foil is not the primary focus by itself, but rather it's a way to efficiently push back against the maximum kite power they can possibly hold down. They are always aiming for maximum and constant drive from the kite - the opposite of what most Cloud riders are about. Race wings are designed for this maximum and constant drive at high speed. Freeride wings are designed to work with occasional and moderate drive from the kite, so you can get on with flowing with the foil.

These are the extremes of a spectrum, as I see it. Choose your desired style and the aspect-ratios of kite and foil to match.

dorothyinste said..
Merely a personal opinion, however it is my experience that full carbon racing foils are the best for free riding foils. Race foils are extremely agile and respond immediately to rider input, by way of subtle centre of gravity changes. The high aspect ratio of the wings, requires the foil to 'fly' faster for stability. However the same high aspect also means more manoeuvrability at lower speeds. The trick is to fly the foil at low speed and maintain control, without stalling. It is about balance and flow.
If you are able to overcome the fear of flying the foil at speed, one would highly recommend the fire fish. You will not regret it.

I totally agree with you. The more efficient and less drag the foil the more fun it is and easier to ride once you get used to it. Anybody that can do a backroll will be able to ride a higher aspect foil and fly through air tacks and gybes after some practice..As states above higher aspect foils are are more responsive and above 20knots a lot easier and more fun to ride. Stall moment is similar to low aspect foils depending on your stabiliser AOA and lift of kite..I can easily ride the Firefish with 5kmh up on foil. A Light weight and low drag foil design helps a lot with this! Comparing a 1.5-2kg foil to a 3kg+ foil makes a huge difference in stalling moment and responsioveness .. The board weight add to this as well.

Maybe one should clarify. If you want to freeride foil only in flat water than mid aspect wings is fine.
However, if you want real freeride...out on ocean swell, then a full carbon race foil is your best choice.
If foiling really gets into your system, you will eventually want your foil to be as strong and manoeuvrable as possible.

dorothyinste said..
Maybe one should clarify. If you want to freeride foil only in flat water than mid aspect wings is fine.
However, if you want real freeride...out on ocean swell, then a full carbon race foil is your best choice.
If foiling really gets into your system, you will eventually want your foil to be as strong and manoeuvrable as possible.

Not sure I agree with that. Dropping into a biggish wave on a high performance foil can be terrifying. The acceleration is amazing and you can be left hanging on for dear life. On a purpose built low-aspect foil the drop in is fun and once on the wave you can carve around and closely mimic the sensation of true surfing.

I guess you could develop your skills to be able to handle the higher performance foil in more extreme situations. But if the original poster was up for that then they wouldn't be asking questions about which foil to get.

Similarly, on flat water the extra lift of a big kite is very welcome. In waves it just pulls you downwind through the transition. In 20 knots on flat water I am happy on a 10m LEI. In waves and big chop the 5m is more fun. Linked carving turns with a tiny kite on Port Phillip Bay chop in 25 knots are loads of fun.

Because of the lower bottom speed I can come into the surf zone and play with the breaking waves and not worry about dropping off the foil and hitting the bottom.

The race foil guys on foil kites go much faster than me, but sometimes they come in and describe a session as "riding on the edge". Meanwhile I have been carving around having loads of fun.

Note that I am not talking about some of the big heavy foils coming from the major manufacturers. I am referring to low aspect carbon foils specifically designed for free riding and carving.

PS I am a big fan of the one piece foil, fuselage and stabiliser. Racers might want to tune their ride. The rest of use just want to jump on and go on something that has been properly designed in the first place. Less screws. Less joins, More solid. Clean and neat.

PPS Carbon is good too. So easy to maintain and repair.

i would highly recommend testing as many foils as you can before committing to purchasing one. I've owned 1 race foil and 4-5 freeeride foils (some carbon, some ally) and have discovered that there isnt a "one size fits all" design and make sure if you buy one that suts your local spot.. The race foil i owned (KFA mako) was brilliant at riding upwind quickly, but not well suited to how i actually rode (slowly trying to surf waves like Kai). Conversely the 6kg SUP foil I'm now riding in the surf is heaps of fun in slow mushy waves but crap for everything else. i reckon i could justify owning 3 foils - one for racing, one for freeride and one for surf as they all require different things.

if money was no object carbon construction is very nice but not essential unless racing (similar to 1 piece wing/fuse construction - it appears in 2018 that this is mandatory to be competitive). After owning one, i also wouldn't buy a race foil again unless i wanted to go racing - for me they were a bit too niche in their intended application. (Great for upwind angles and speed, too fragile and sharp for faffing about one learning new tricks. And forget about lending it to a mate).

After selling the race foil, i bought 2x Zeeko aluminium foils - a regular Green & White and a Spitfire. Yes they are a lot heavier but I have just as much fun on those to be honest, and at half the cost they are excellent value. I still have one Zeeko and also a SUP foil.

Its great that competition has brought the costs down and in 2017/8 there are so many great foils to choose from. Like anything, demo demo demo and find one that suits your local spot and riding style.

Correction foil is KFA Firefish.
I have now done 54k in 2 days on this foil using a 6.2m Cloud strutless kite in wind from 10/12kn to 20kn plus a bit the latter extremely gusty and unpleasant.
Construction seems very solid and all very light compared to my Zeeko Carver.
Day 1; 10 to 15kn max covered 33k.
No issues getting up on the foil and blasting up wind in full control at just over my normal Zeeko speed. No control issues or feeling of being unable to control speed.
Down wind was a bit harder than Zeeko Carver due to roll stability. Time on the water should correct this. No issues with speed control.
Day 2; wind 12 to 20kn plus a bit and 20kn was unbelievably gusty with lots of crazy up and downs on foil. Start of this session was similar to day 1 with just over 20k covered.
Summary
Love light weight, surprised with ease of control compared with people comments and easier to move into position for water start.
On water tranisition not an issue however I do not have confidence to do on foil transitions untill I improve on the roll stability.
KFA help has been very good.

More comments after a lot more time on the water.

In reflection possibly my biggest issue with role is that for some reason I foil at maximum height even on my new 102cm mast. As Ral Inn said in another post more mast in the water the better role control. I am just struggling to ride a say - half mast height.