Hi Guys,

Background:
I have recently started learning to foil on a slingshot hoverglide. I can foil in either direction, but don't have transitions nailed yet. I kite primarily on Port Phillip Bay where it is choppy if the wind is blowing. I weigh 85kgs and have a range of LEI kites from 9M Catalyst to 13M Edge/14M Cat.

Seeking:
A recommendation on a first foil kite. While I've been having fun in 15 knots, its quite choppy and I would love to be able to get out in the 6-12 knot windrange on the foil board. I find that the LEI's are all a bit 'heavy' in the light stuff and can be difficult to launch.

Can anyone recommend a model and size? been looking at something like 15M Chrono V2, but open to ideas.

Thanks!

Although having read a few posts about it, perhaps I should be considering something smaller like a 12m? I'm conscious of the fact that its not generally power that is the issue in light stuff on a foil, more a handling problem.

With your weight, I would be looking at a 9 Chrono instead. I think a 12 would be too much. Your skills are improving and once you have your transitions down you won't need a 12 for most kiting conditions where the foils are fun. My largest kite for foiling is a 10 Reo and I am around the same weight. I can get out in 10 knots here on the south coast of NSWc. After just returning from QLD I doubt I would be able to kite with a 10 up there, but where you are it should be fine.

I would look at the Ozone Hyperlink in the 12 (if you want to go out in sub 10kts) or the 9m from 10kts. Although you CAN go out in sub 10kt winds, the problem is that it only has to drop by a few knots and you're swimming regardless of your kite type. I always like a base of 10kts for safety as I'm also still new to foiling.

Thanks guys,
Duke, Do you know what the difference between something like the Hyperlink is compared to the Chrono? I had looked at it, but given that its a newer model and not as tried and tested as something like the Chrono I was a bit hesitant to consider it. My understanding was that the hyperlink was a bit of a hybrid and could be used in snow etc, but that the Chrono was generally the better choice if you purely kite on water.

I have no experience with foil kites but jut recently was comparing those 2 kites based on reviews and Ozone shpeel. What I took away was the Hyperlink is a good introduction to foil kites for 1st time foil kite fliers. Conversely the Chrono is described by Ozone as being for experienced foil kiters only. I think the Hyperlink responds more like a LEI whilst the Chrono is more high performance and technique sensitive.

Or you could look at strutless or single strut kite. These will get you down to 7 or 8 knots while behaving like a pool noodle on the days the wind disappears.

Select to expand quote

ridgeydidge123 said..
Thanks guys,
Duke, Do you know what the difference between something like the Hyperlink is compared to the Chrono? I had looked at it, but given that its a newer model and not as tried and tested as something like the Chrono I was a bit hesitant to consider it. My understanding was that the hyperlink was a bit of a hybrid and could be used in snow etc, but that the Chrono was generally the better choice if you purely kite on water.

Yes, what Snalberski said. It's a more user friendly version of a foil kite with a more simple bridle setup and easier relaunch. Yes it can be used on snow but I don't think this takes away from it's ability on the water. Have a look at some Youtube vids. Gunnar Biniasch does a good review online. Go the Chrono if you want to race eventually.

Hyperlink and chrono V2 are very similar. Chrono is slightly better upwind and hyperlink is slightly more stable. Its not a big gap.
If you have years of kite flying experience go straight to the chrono. If not maybe start with the hyperlink.

Hi Ridgey

expect a steep learning curve if you get a kite like the chrono for your very first foil kite... Unless you have an interest in racing and high speed runs I wouldn't recommend this as a first foil kite.

It might take a few years of experience before your foil kite handling skills become good enough to take full advantage of it's true potential.

High performance single strut inflatable kites will give similar low end and low wind performance with much easier handling and relaunching capabilities. I compared the weight of an Airush Ultra (single strut kite) to the weight of other 15m race foil kites and they weight almost the same, race foil kites being a few hundred grams lighter at the most.

The most difficult part of light wind is to get up and going, and race foil kites with their extremely high aspect radio turn incredibly slow, therefore it's harder to develop quick power strokes and to re-stroke the kite quickly to keep developing power.

If you really want to get into foil kites I would also recommend starting with something easier like the hyperlink. Keep in mind that race foil kites like the Chrono are very fragile and demand great handling skills, not to mention they are very $$S expensive

Foil kites also over limited depower, meaning you quickly get overpowered compared to LEI kites of the same size.
Also with foil kites in light wind, expect some inversions and long swims to the shore with the kite gradually filling up with water, this is inevitable and will happen to you if you try to tackle sub 15 knots.

Check out this short clip of the 15m ultra in a very marginal on-shore breeeze



Christian

Things that made foiling less of a hassle for me.
Firstly I declare I am Bigtone667 apprentice which is odd as he would be 25 to 30 years younger than me.
Bigtone suggestions were:
Seat harness
Strutless kite
Drag up wind away from weed
Front foot pressure
First 2 were easy and with practice now the last 2 are as well. I am now up on foil with runs over 1 k.
A tip I read to help front foot pressure is to push your toes into the board. Lifting toes as one often does when in straps will reduce pressue and up comes the foil.

It can help many, to stop thinking about foot pressure and change the mind set to thinking body CoG
focus on moving your hips forward or backward to move your centre of mass to control pitch.

Select to expand quote

cbulota said..
Hi Ridgey

expect a steep learning curve if you get a kite like the chrono for your very first foil kite... Unless you have an interest in racing and high speed runs I wouldn't recommend this as a first foil kite.

It might take a few years of experience before your foil kite handling skills become good enough to take full advantage of it's true potential.

High performance single strut inflatable kites will give similar low end and low wind performance with much easier handling and relaunching capabilities. I compared the weight of an Airush Ultra (single strut kite) to the weight of other 15m race foil kites and they weight almost the same, race foil kites being a few hundred grams lighter at the most.

The most difficult part of light wind is to get up and going, and race foil kites with their extremely high aspect radio turn incredibly slow, therefore it's harder to develop quick power strokes and to re-stroke the kite quickly to keep developing power.

If you really want to get into foil kites I would also recommend starting with something easier like the hyperlink. Keep in mind that race foil kites like the Chrono are very fragile and demand great handling skills, not to mention they are very $$S expensive

Foil kites also over limited depower, meaning you quickly get overpowered compared to LEI kites of the same size.
Also with foil kites in light wind, expect some inversions and long swims to the shore with the kite gradually filling up with water, this is inevitable and will happen to you if you try to tackle sub 15 knots.

Check out this short clip of the 15m ultra in a very marginal on-shore breeeze

Christian

Thanks, this is helpful, i will look into it.

Select to expand quote

DukeSilver said..
I would look at the Ozone Hyperlink in the 12 (if you want to go out in sub 10kts) or the 9m from 10kts. Although you CAN go out in sub 10kt winds, the problem is that it only has to drop by a few knots and you're swimming regardless of your kite type. I always like a base of 10kts for safety as I'm also still new to foiling.

I have the Hyperlink 9m, I am 90 kgs and ride a JShapes foil. I was not able to get going in 5 knots but my 70 kg friend was, he is more experienced than I am but he was foiling in 5 knots on the 9M. I have had the kite out in 25 knots on a strapped surfboard in small surf and did not need to depower. It is an ideal kite for me for 8-10 knots on flat water for foiling.

The range on the Hyperlink is big. I don't know what the advantage of the 12 would be. I am very happy with my Hyperlink 9m.

Select to expand quote

GreenKiter said..

DukeSilver said..
I would look at the Ozone Hyperlink in the 12 (if you want to go out in sub 10kts) or the 9m from 10kts. Although you CAN go out in sub 10kt winds, the problem is that it only has to drop by a few knots and you're swimming regardless of your kite type. I always like a base of 10kts for safety as I'm also still new to foiling.

I have the Hyperlink 9m, I am 90 kgs and ride a JShapes foil. I was not able to get going in 5 knots but my 70 kg friend was, he is more experienced than I am but he was foiling in 5 knots on the 9M. I have had the kite out in 25 knots on a strapped surfboard in small surf and did not need to depower. It is an ideal kite for me for 8-10 knots on flat water for foiling.

The range on the Hyperlink is big. I don't know what the advantage of the 12 would be. I am very happy with my Hyperlink 9m.

Yep, at 80kg, I would def get the 9m Hyperlink. I can't see a 12m as being practical for me. The usable wind range would be very narrow.

I used an 11m Chrono v2 for a year as my first foil kite. I found it very user-friendly, and overall a very good kite. The V2 seems a big step up on the original. As for kite size in 6-12 knots I wouldn't go anything smaller than a 15m. I currently fly a 15m R1 and while that's a race kite it is still a lot of fun when not racing, and pretty user friendly. Although from what you have said I reckon a 15m Chrono is on the money. I haven't tried a strutless kite, but have used an edge in 7m, 13m, & 17m, and one of the quickest ways to make foiling better was going to a foil kite.

First foil kite ? I am a FS dealer and would naturally suggest a Flysurfer Speed 5 as an excellent place to start.It would also be remiss of me not to mention the Ozone Hyperlink which is a new design and looks like a really interesting and fun kite to fly. Free ride foils are very forgiving compared to race foils like the Sonic, Chrono and R1, they a designed to be stable and relaunch easily and don't require much skill development. I would suggest you stick away from race foils (Sonics, Chrono and R1v1-3, Diablo) unless you are particularly patient and accept that you will have a few swims with them from time to time. Long and skinny (high AR) maximises upwind performance but gives away ease of use as a sequence. Many experienced foil kiters would testify to wingtip folding, relaunch difficulty and ease of tangling as common features of race foils. I have had quite a few swims with them myself.

If you want a unconventional suggestion, there is a French company called ConceptAir that make some interesting kites - the Pulsion is the one I've heard most about. The latest design is the "Wave" which the guys on the other forum are raving about. It's a super low aspect foil kite designed for wave foiling. Talk about ultra niche.....

Older early Peter Lynn, FS Speed 1 (2005) 2&3 (2009), FS Psycho (2003) are all getting pretty long on the tooth now and are probably best left for the enthusiast who wants to fiddle, tweak and tinker wth the bridle t get them to fly well. Speed 4 (2013) is a nice kite - based on the 2010 'speed3.5' 21m design with light weight fabric and is reasonably new and trouble free. Speed 5 (2016) was a major jump forward in design from Speed3/4 which in turn was a major leap from the S2.

I started on strutted kites and struggled in light wind keeping them in the sky even though years of strapless surfboard surf experience. Then introduced to Cloud strutless kites which have fast tracked my progress.
Now moving on a bit more will update to later Cloud kites.
So now have 9m, 12m and possibly 13.5m Strutless Cloud kites for sale.

Before you go to dark side with foil kites try Cabrinha appollo, just got 9 and 14 and yesterday was on 9 foiling in 10-12 knots while everyone was struggling on non foils on 12m i was fully powered on 9m appollo. Waiting for under 10knots to try 14m.

There are heaps of us foiling almost every day in winds <10 knots to well over 30 knots using every kind of LEI kite. Mostly surf-oriented 3 strut kites. Those of us who have committed to foiling don't want to ride anything else.

You would be better off spending a lot more time foiling than spending loads of money on special kites.

I fully admit that foil kites can bring a lot of benefits, but you need a lot of skill to take advantage of those benefits.

I saw a hyperlink in action last weekend. Consensus from the pilot was it's very similar to a LEI to use - very similar in loads of ways - boosting especially. It even relaunches like an LEI by pulling one steering line. It looks a lot lower aspect than the Chrono / Speed 5 - which makes sense given where it's meant to sit in the range. I didn't get a chance to try it myself but it looked like a super fun kite to ride.

Some of you seem to have the impression that foil kites have a narrow wind range - the reality is the exact opposite. Along with changing the angle of attack with the bar, you also change the projected area (by around 20%) and airfoil profile aswell. Flysurfer have refered to this a "triple depower" since 2008. The upshot is that a foil kites has a much broader wind range than a LeI the same size - think plus/minus 2m either side of stated size. Ie a 12 foil will cover the same wind range as an 8m - 14m lei.

So the biggest benefits of a foil kite in 2017 are greater wind range per stated size (fewer kites required), greater hangtime for boosting, better upwind performance ( due to high AR), faster setup as no pumping and super smooth power delivery - think 'cable park' type feel. They are great to travel with for this reason. They also pack smaller so could fit 3 foils in 1 kite bag.

Downsides include can't be used as a sail for self rescue, slower turning which is why I prefer foiling with a LEI in surf, and initially harder relaunch until you learn the technique.

But it's not hard or difficult to learn - rather they teach you to be a bit more sensitive on the bar and this translates into better LEI skills too. ( This is because it's high AR- not because it's a foil kite per se. )

You will all be aware that foils have now replaced LEIs in almost all forms of kite racing - I think only the Neil Pryde CRX series use LEI now. Certainly in formula kite and hydrofoil pro tour have been 100% Foil for a couple of years now.

its funny because the most common question I get is whether Ive ever relaunched one in water. If you seen me ride you'll know my kites get wet from time to time... Err... of course they do !

Thanks All,
Found an as new second hand Chrono V2 and got foiling in 7-8 knots last weekend - WOOHOO. Also I was surprised at how easy the relaunch was. I can't even launch my LEI's with an assist in that wind, but my foil kite relaunched from leading edge down in the water instantly with the brake handle.
Very happy I invested in a foil kite.

Select to expand quote

ridgeydidge123 said..
Thanks All,
Found an as new second hand Chrono V2 and got foiling in 7-8 knots last weekend - WOOHOO. Also I was surprised at how easy the relaunch was. I can't even launch my LEI's with an assist in that wind, but my foil kite relaunched from leading edge down in the water instantly with the brake handle.
Very happy I invested in a foil kite.

What size did you get?

Great you found something you like. Im 90 kgs with a moses fluente foil. On my 14.5m Ocean Rodeo Flite, as long as i can keep the kite in the air i.e. 6 knots + i can foil but at 10 knots im getting overpowered...

Im planning to get a 10m Flite now for the more common Melbourne light winds of 10-14 knots.

Select to expand quote

TomW059 said..

ridgeydidge123 said..
Thanks All,
Found an as new second hand Chrono V2 and got foiling in 7-8 knots last weekend - WOOHOO. Also I was surprised at how easy the relaunch was. I can't even launch my LEI's with an assist in that wind, but my foil kite relaunched from leading edge down in the water instantly with the brake handle.
Very happy I invested in a foil kite.

What size did you get?

13M