Probably been asked before But 2 questions, 1 what's a good setup to learn on to make progression smoother and is there a setup you can get that you can maybe change a wing to use for surfing as well?

There are heaps of quality foils to choose from that offer a range of wing options.
Some even have deals on getting a foil with more than one wing.
and more than one size mast.
but as a beginner think of the first stages of learning where ?? ing with board on water and building carefully upto speed to lift means a wing that won't over lift you.
Then of course your choice of foiling styles to pursue. Are you a speed freak or slow geriatric.

Plenty of great options out there.
I used the slingshot graduated mast program.
Small steps made learning mire manageable.
The great thing about the Slingshot
set up is that it is interchangeable with there entire wing range, from prone surfing to higher speed foiling.
Use the foil academy to get up to speed.
It's a step learning curve but well Wirth it.
Grant

+ 1 for the Slingshot system. As Grant mentions above, they have the graduated mast lengths which I found invaluable for learning, but also, they are strong and can take the knocks dished out by beginners. The wing options are a huge bonus meaning you don't have to buy a whole new set up to try other styles of foiling.

There are plenty of options out there for learning though. Axis, Naish, Zeeko, LF, Cabrinha all do systems with shorter masts and various wing options. You will have fun on all of them.

2 options are a standout for me. First is slingshot- you can change the wings over and have the flight school. However if you paying new prices, it's going to get expensive.
Secondly is Konrad. Great wing and has the 3 size masts included in the price.
The wing is fantastic and I haven't needed to upgrade.

Bothe brands are awsome some and iv be using both for almost 12 months. you can't go wrong with ether.

Also, Konrad is Australian owned!!!

Hi Falco,

The easiest is possibly the Duotone/North Speedster. The longer fuse makes the pitch more mellow and easier to learn. The wing set is good but has a top speed of around 20 knots. North also have a 60cm mast for learning. You can buy the upgrade GT wingset to give higher top speed of around 25knots.

Slingshot have a really good program in the Foil Academy, their foils are very good and the graduated masts make learning safe and easy. The amazing assortment of wings makes them a foil you wont grow out of any time soon. They have a great range of boards too.

The SHinn is probably best for $$$, the P foil is a beast and easy to learn but you will outgrow it quickly and need to purchase the F wing soon after.

Moses do awesome foils but their cost is higher than most are willing to spend on learning kit. They also have amazing wings but due to the cost of carbon masts the wing and masts make it expensive, but worth it if you have the cash to spare.

DM

I would go Slingshot or Naish.

Both have a graduated mast system for learning.

Both have multiple wing sets for flat water or surf that work with the same fuselage.

Both have a big variety of boards for flat water, surf, prone surf, SUP.

Sounds like the Axis S-series will suit you -- multiple wing options and graduated masts, although IMO you only need one mast size. 680 wing seems like a good size for learning, and you can surf it too. Then if you want maximum glide, get a bigger wing...

After trying most of them, here is my top 3:

1. Zeeko Blaster
2. F-one IC6 (this year model as last year's design was a flop)
3. Axis S

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www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/Review/Axis-Foil-Stoke-?page=1

+1 for what eppo said
I started late last season and tried the shinn, zeeko and a smaller Axis and this season have the axis with 680 wing and it is so much easier , a lot more stable and just easier to get on with , have managed toeside in both directions and a couple gybes in my first few sessions this season on it , just really stable .

The other great part is the wings are interchangeable and there are plenty of options to go bigger or smaller as you progress or want to sup / prone surf foil as well and use the same mast and fuselage .
And its shiny red , see Jason at West Oz

Okay you talked me into axis s series. Watch this space

Okay you talked me into axis s series, looks pretty and like the flexibility it offers for multiple disciplines, now just to find a hidey hole to keep it out of the wife's scope hahaha ??

Just a word of caution - very few can get first runs on the first session and fully foil on third sessions. You can possibly suck at it like me - about 15 sessions on hard to learn foil and ZERO progress, followed by 25 or so sessions on 'easy' foil before it clicked. 6 sessions later I can only go straight - no toeside, no turns.

But the feeling is amazing once you go and you can go kiting so much more!!!

Just don't expect too much to start with - better pleasantly surprised than angry and frustrated

Well demoed the Konrad foil, after a while I really don't know how long I was on the water,I completely lost track of time (maybe a few hours) started to get a few 25m-50m. Second time out on the same gear managed to string together a few 100m rides, got cocky and tried to ride to toe side and man that thing bucked like a bull lol. I've looked at a few videos probably not enough toe pressure or speed, I don't know felt so weird through the turn. 1 question how the hell do you control your speed, like on a twin tip you can engage your edge hard but what do you do on a foil to control speed? . Waiting for my gear to rock up I can't believe how efficient these things are 14 knots maybe less just enough pressure to keep the 9m in the sky without stalling and flying up wind wow, so many more sessions opened up

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Falco said..
Well demoed the Konrad foil, after a while I really don't know how long I was on the water,I completely lost track of time (maybe a few hours) started to get a few 25m-50m. Second time out on the same gear managed to string together a few 100m rides, got cocky and tried to ride to toe side and man that thing bucked like a bull lol. I've looked at a few videos probably not enough toe pressure or speed, I don't know felt so weird through the turn. 1 question how the hell do you control your speed, like on a twin tip you can engage your edge hard but what do you do on a foil to control speed? . Waiting for my gear to rock up I can't believe how efficient these things are 14 knots maybe less just enough pressure to keep the 9m in the sky without stalling and flying up wind wow, so many more sessions opened up

Good effort mate, you are one of those talented bastards :-)
feels great to be on the foil! Can't offer any speed control advice... curious myself, can be under control for a while, but then it gets to speed and the only remedy is a controlled crash for me...

Can't believe I'm offering advice because I'm a novice. But I have learnt to control my speed mostly. Mainly because the Big K has given me advice.

I'm finding if I catch it in time, just S bend downwind towards the kite... but make sure you lift the kite higher and depower it. My rebel just keeps dropping and pulling at the edge of the window so maybe on a more wave type kite you won't need lift it as much. The rebels a damn monster on a foil when it gains speed !!!

ive bee forced to always be essentially heading downwind (to keep within eyeshot Of my son) so I was forced to bleed of power continually. Probably a good thing.

Or if a big gust comes in and you know you cant S bend it out, point that sucker straight upwind, bend those knees (keep them supple) and Fck hurl at crazy ungodly angles.

Im finding I have to be far more immersed in the wind ... meaning I've got to really watch and feel gusts coming and going for that reason... but I'm sure it gets easier! I'm finding I'm anticipating possible speed problems as I see, feel the gust coming.

i do hope someone with far more valuable insight chips in here. I really don't know what I'm doing really but it's working so far.

Yeh toeside is damn weird hey. I've only just got it to feel kind of okay ... need a sliding hook for sure!! I've got toe to heel, heel to toe turns on the foil ... but foot changes are a cluster Fck still

Ps still getting the axis foil or a Konrad ... funny it was the Konrad that got me going to !

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Falco said..
Well demoed the Konrad foil, after a while I really don't know how long I was on the water,I completely lost track of time (maybe a few hours) started to get a few 25m-50m. Second time out on the same gear managed to string together a few 100m rides, got cocky and tried to ride to toe side and man that thing bucked like a bull lol. I've looked at a few videos probably not enough toe pressure or speed, I don't know felt so weird through the turn. 1 question how the hell do you control your speed, like on a twin tip you can engage your edge hard but what do you do on a foil to control speed? . Waiting for my gear to rock up I can't believe how efficient these things are 14 knots maybe less just enough pressure to keep the 9m in the sky without stalling and flying up wind wow, so many more sessions opened up

This made me laugh out loud
I've riden some horses that chucked me off when least expected it !

Like windsurfing or kiting you either need to bleed off speed or power in the kite / sail. Methods are go hard upwind to slow down or downwind towards the kite. S bends certainly will work as you will slow down in increments.
DOwn wind doesn't work so well on a windsurfer actually , it gets a lot harder to control than a kite.

You will bleed off speed quicker on a tt because there is so much more friction loss than a more efficient foil by going upwind or off the wind.
You do have to get used to letting the foil go in some sutuations when you might be a bit late in controlling speed .
If that happens bury the foil to avoid breaching and ride it out., bring kite up and it will slow.

If you go upwind hard , i do more twisting the board to the wind rather than just leaning hard against the foil. Less pressure , more upwind if you see what I mean.
I have just begun to really enjoy an almost full tilt gybe ... it's a wider arc , but hell its exciting to nail.

For me , good turns feel like I am pointing down a hill , as with more pressure while turning the foil will want to rise ... so I have to apply more front pressure thus feeling like I am pointing it downwards.

Cheers.

It will not be long before you are using much smaller kites than you would need for a TT on the same day. This help bring down the speed.

Plus you do not really need to rig the lines for power. You actually want your kite to fly or "breath" as I refer to it.

Having good de-power/throw on the bar helps.

And then a few months after you get height control, you will love the speed.

Yeah so ordered the axis s series with 750 front wing and 650 mast, which was what Jason advised would be best for prone surfing. I want to be able to do both kiting and prone surfing, will probably pair it with a slingshot alien air 39 L which is marketed as a cross over board, so should hopefully be able to paddle it as well as kite it. But yeah probably the same Konrad board & foil combo from westoz Eppo, which is probably saying something for that setup and how good it is for learning on.......

Swavek I think the setup is really good to learn on and also the years of kiting on different surfboards helped to just cruise on the water before initiating lift.

Thanks for all the advice pretty exciting learning curve and prospect of all the kiting and surfing that could potentially open up to me. No more days were it's to windy to surf and not windy enough to kite

If you found the Konrad easy ...to be up and riding so quickly.

you will find the 750 Axis wing a revelation.

Its so so much more stable and intuitive. So much more connection between mast, foil and board.

And im talking about my experience on a 680 wing ... the 750 will be even more stable!!!

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Falco said..
Yeah so ordered the axis s series with 750 front wing and 650 mast, which was what Jason advised would be best for prone surfing. I want to be able to do both kiting and prone surfing, will probably pair it with a slingshot alien air 39 L which is marketed as a cross over board, so should hopefully be able to paddle it as well as kite it.

Make sure you get a board that you will be a good paddler for you.
I'm doing both kite & prone surfing on the same setup & finding prone foiling to be much harder to learn than kitefoiling.
But the few glides that I've got prone are so much better than with the kite

That is my biggest worry, how it will cross over/perform with prone surfing but I think it will be a good entry level board, some of the Naish boards have even lower volume.......

Thought I would kite and have a few sessions getting towed behind my mates ski before I try prone surfing. Well after my first kite I have to say what a contrast of foils lol . This was a whole new game compared to the Konrad foil I first demoed, I thought I had this in the bag after my last 2 sessions but feeling pretty humbled, I got owned
..........and it completely took me by surprise. This thing just wanted to lift, I mean farking lift, like the slightest force and this bad boy was up, which made for 2hrs of carnage, as soon as I sined the kite I was getting bucked lol . It took a hell of allot of concentration and front foot pressure and I really mean front foot pressure haha, I finally managed a nice 500m glide across the bay, however going the opposite way with my left foot back was super challenging, I did manage to get a 100m ride before I had to call time. I was on a really small kite for the conditions and I think this made it harder as I was trying to keep tension on my lines to keep the kite in the air, which threw out my body positioning and made it harder to start as I had to virtually pop up and aim my myself straight downwind at the kite to be able to keep enough front foot pressure to keep the foil in the water, the lack of wind made that hard as the kites drift ability can only go so far . Once up tho it felt like I was standing on a rock, the foil was super stable and I can definitely see the potential for fast progression, I just need to get my head around the water start, can also see how this thing will be awesome for prone surfing, even just walking or the slightest movement whilst walking in the water she was up, I'm excited to take it out for a paddle, it seems this foil really does want to fly with minimal input.

Mast back, straps forward until it feels nicely balanced.

Water start with bigger wings is a little different -- it's easier to use little dips of the kite and get it to pull you UP onto the foil at a slow speed rather than forwards with speed using a deep power stroke.

Hey Falco" what size axis wing is that?? - the 680 or 750?

Your mast all the way back?

Yeah I had to put the mast all the way back ( using 680 wing ) , my back foot tends to be right over the top of the foil generally so a little more forward than with the smaller foil .

Yeah 750 wing, I had mast in the middle I couldn't work out were the best position would be to start so went with the safe bet, will put it all the way back for the next session. I'll be better prepared this time lol ??, didn't expect the contrast between foils lol

Thanks for the advice guys put the mast back and was a big difference, was up and riding no problem, felt like I could cruise along up on the foil as long as I wanted. Was a funny old session forgot my straps today and had to ride strapless, strapless water starts took a little to get my head around haha ??, looking forward to another session tomorrow Managed to nail heel side to toe side turns going one way, next challenge controlling speed going toe side, there were a few exciting turns going toe side back to heel at speed definitely got my heart racing and some serious burn in my legs haha.

Thought I would put down my thoughts on the Axis surf foil with 75cm wing to learn on.

After years of procrastination I finally decided that foil design was starting to get where I wanted to go ..riding waves with a kite and surfboard.

Spent endless hours researching and a trip to Merimbula to see all the latest 2019 gear. Very nearly bought the Naish surf foil which looks a great product with plenty of options.
Decided on the Axis due to the great looking design and the high quality finish which feels is a cut above the rest, plus I've had some great experience with the designers Underground surfboards in the past.

Also bought a Slingshot Dwarf craft 4'6" which I was concerned might be a touch small to learn on. This was last Sunday.

Monday - Day 1 (no previous foil experience but an advanced wave kiter) Light wind 12m.
1 hour lesson with my Axis foil on a large beginner board. Humbling experience back to being a beginner again crashing and body dragging. With good instruction was making a few 30m glides by the end. .Very happy start.

Thursday - Day 2 15 - 22 Knots 7m Neo. 1 .5 Hours
On my own with Dwaftcraft 4-6 foil set 3cm from the back, front strap forward and back strap mid setting. Much harder than the first day and considered giving up and going back to get the shop beginner board again.
Foil was coming up so easily getting no more than 20m glides and then hard crashes. Board kept sinking so decided problem was not enough power. (incorrect)

Friday - Day 3 15 - 25 knots 9m Neo. 1.5 Hours
My head was saying 7m but I went with the 9m to ensure I had power to keep my weight off the board. Much easier, foil comes straight up but so much weight required on my front foot, get some 50 - 100m plus glides but all end in sudden hard crashes.
Much better than yesterday but starting to think foiling was going to be a slog to learn. . Started to research the problem and found this thread and moved the mast all the way to the back and removed the rear strap.

Saturday Day 4 12 - 20 knots 9m Neo 3 hours.

In the start position placed my back foot way forward over the mast and WOW I'm foiling I could have kept going all the way across the Bay but did a controlled stop and turned around after 500m. Back the other way exactly the same.
After about 10 similar runs started to play around with S turns then really depowered the kite and started to pump the board. This Axis foil feels amazing its very slow but that's what I need to ride surf. Downwind was really fun because there was a small swell in the channel.
I let the bar go and was able to ride the small wind swell just surfing the foil at the kite. In the whole session not one hard crash until I tried a few flying transitions which brought me back to earth. I still can't believe how much change it made to my progress today. I can foil!!

If I had read this thread first I could have saved myself at least a day of hard crashes. Still I'm way ahead I where I though last week and it's windy tomorrow .

The key was to have the mast all the way back and take the back foot strap off because my foot needs to be way forward of where I thought. Once I had the balance right the foils comes right up with such small pressure on the backfoot and then all front controls the glide.

If you kite and surf I think these big foils are a good one foil option and easy to learn on.

Now I need to buy a surfboard with a track to have a go prone with this Axis foil.

Cheers KB7

"advanced kiter" and "humbling experience" usually go together when "foil" is the topic

Moving your back foot forward worked because your stance, and how you're balancing your weight on the board, isn't yet right. Yoga lunges... Because when you need to put the strap back, if you don't have the weight shift right, it'll make life difficult again. When you've got it sorted, you'll need to balance the foil mounting position with the rails to make your stance comfy... Instead of moving your body position. IMO get it right from the start. And you'll eventually want some input from the rear foot...

The wing's not slow but you can ride it slow, and the Axis wings behave themselves nicely across their whole range. My 820 does 20 knots easily and I have no idea how to ride for speed.

There have been plenty of times for me that the kite actually gets in the way, and I've seriously contemplated just dumping it and riding