Hey guys,

Would the following Axis gear work for learning to kite foil?

Front wing: BSC 970
Rear wing: Free Ride 440
Fuse: standard

Rider weight: 68-70kg.

What wind range would I get, please?

Am trying to work out if this will be a good place to start (slowly, eg in light wind on a 7m 2021 Duotone Neo) as I found a good used deal.

Thanks in advance

For a wing foil, yes. Surely that's too big for a kite foil?!?!

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ac17 said..
Hey guys,

Would the following Axis gear work for learning to kite foil?

Front wing: BSC 970
Rear wing: Free Ride 440
Fuse: standard

Rider weight: 68-70kg.

What wind range would I get, please?

Am trying to work out if this will be a good place to start (slowly, eg in light wind on a 7m 2021 Duotone Neo) as I found a good used deal.

Thanks in advance

For your weight an Axis 810 or 740 BSC would be best. You just don't need the big Axis wings with a kite.
A number of my customers use the Axis 660 SP wing and are very happy with it in a wide range of conditions.

Thanks guys - just wondering with this set up though, what would happen?

Would I be able to get up and progress faster because it would be super easy?

Or would I reach the top speed too quickly and it be unusable?

In my head (noob) I thought this could be a good initial place to start and then once I can do it, I would downsize the 970 to ~660 and have 2x front wings to choose from depending on the wind or my kite size.

-I just don't know what would happen on the 970.

The 440 sounds like it would be very stable, and something I may need to downsize at some point also.

Maybe me trying to save money with this kit, will turn out to be a waste of money?

-I know of another guy selling 3x different sized K series front wings (and Fuse and 370 rear) for a good price. Maybe that's a better way to go.

The k series seems like older tech though. Funny how those wings attach via 2x screws yet the BSC have more attachments to the Fuse. Suggests that 2 screws wasn't a good design.
Also the k series seem low aspect when everyone is all hyping up high aspect.

It's all Greek to me. Oooopaaa

Can anyone please help shed some light?

I already did
Here it is again:
For your weight an Axis 810 or 740 BSC would be best. You just don't need the big Axis wings with a kite.
A number of my customers use the Axis 660 SP wing and are very happy with it in a wide range of conditions.

With a big wing like the 970, it would lift you so quickly once you got moving that it would throw you off. It would be way hard, not easy at all. The kite already provides lift and operates in clean air with more power than a wind wing for windfoiling, which does requires a bigger wing.

The 440 stab is fine and ignore the K series gear which is outdated and not compatible with the big range of wings that Axis has.

Sorry if you feel I disregarded your response - I hadn't, it just didn't get at what my top speed would be.

So you're saying I "won't have a top speed" - instead I will literally get catapulted into the air?

In other words it would be absolutely impossible to use this wing behind a kite?

(axis website says that although it is for wing foiling, that it could be used in light wind conditions - but they are scant on detailed information about what speed / wind range / kite size... I just wanted to know what they 'mean'.)

"Recommended use:
... Kite foiling - Light wind - All levels"
Source:
axisfoils.com/products/bsc-970-carbon-hydrofoil-wing

It's unclear what that means.

And more confusing to me are people riding bigger wings behind kites like 1010s (!).

My plan was to kite foil in light wind when I couldn't TT. I'm not into speed - but I also doubt that I'd be able to kite foil in sub 12kn (because I haven't done it yet and need to see it to believe it... Attempting to ride in 12kn on a TT would be laughable).

If you're experienced you can kitefoil on any wing even if the experience is crap. The beauty of using a kite to foil is you don't need big clumsy wings even to get going in sub 10 knots conditions. I'm your weight and I use a Flysurfer 5m Peak5 kite in 8-10 knots with a foil smaller than the Axis 660. The size of the foil is not the limiting factor in light wind, the kite is.

There is absolutely no benefit to using the big foils you suggest when using a kite at your weight. If you weighed 150kg maybe.
However I sell the range of Axis foils and I'll sell you whatever you want

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drsurf said..
I already did
Here it is again:
For your weight an Axis 810 or 740 BSC would be best. You just don't need the big Axis wings with a kite.
A number of my customers use the Axis 660 SP wing and are very happy with it in a wide range of conditions.

With a big wing like the 970, it would lift you so quickly once you got moving that it would throw you off. It would be way hard, not easy at all. The kite already provides lift and operates in clean air with more power than a wind wing for windfoiling, which does requires a bigger wing.

The 440 stab is fine and ignore the K series gear which is outdated and not compatible with the big range of wings that Axis has.

As a K-series rider, I'd have to disagree with the statement about "ignore the K series gear". Even if its not compatible with newer wings, if the setup on offer includes 3 front wings, you wouldn't need to be looking at any additional wings for a very long time.
Mine is 2018 model (535mm front wing), and I've found it quite beginner-friendly for learning as takeoff speed isn't very fast and it doesn't try to climb out of the water as you pick up a bit of speed. I can pump it to some degree to keep going through low-wind gybes, and stall speed is amazingly low for such a small wing. I haven't discovered the top of its speed range yet.
Build quality is great, and the 2 bolts securing the front wing seem to be adequate as I once clobbered a fully submerged tree trunk at full speed and nothing broke!
It is my understanding that high aspect wings are more efficient but much less forgiving.

Select to expand quote

ac17 said..
Thanks guys - just wondering with this set up though, what would happen?

Would I be able to get up and progress faster because it would be super easy?

Or would I reach the top speed too quickly and it be unusable?

In my head (noob) I thought this could be a good initial place to start and then once I can do it, I would downsize the 970 to ~660 and have 2x front wings to choose from depending on the wind or my kite size.

-I just don't know what would happen on the 970.

The 440 sounds like it would be very stable, and something I may need to downsize at some point also.

Maybe me trying to save money with this kit, will turn out to be a waste of money?

-I know of another guy selling 3x different sized K series front wings (and Fuse and 370 rear) for a good price. Maybe that's a better way to go.

The k series seems like older tech though. Funny how those wings attach via 2x screws yet the BSC have more attachments to the Fuse. Suggests that 2 screws wasn't a good design.
Also the k series seem low aspect when everyone is all hyping up high aspect.

It's all Greek to me. Oooopaaa

My 2c:

You can learn on the 970 if your heart is set on it. It won't be that bad. It will be a bit too much front wing for a decently powered 70kg kite foiler. In reality this means you might have to stomp the nose pretty hard on the initial jump up onto the foil. After that you should be ok, as axis foils tend to ride flat and don't generally increase front wing pressure with speed like some brands.

The pros: can learn in lighter wind. Fairly stable and forgiving. Low stall speed.
The cons: too lifty at times (see above), bigger wing to kick under water, bigger wing to breach a tip which will probably mean a fall when learning, however it's also harder to crank over through a turn, so this will negate the tip breaches somewhat. More of a pain to transport.

Bigger wings are less responsive, take more persuasion to do what you want (yaw/pitch/roll etc) which is a double edged sword, great when you're learning and want something stable *and it's going the way you want it to*.

As for top speed, not really an issue to begin with. Stall speed is more important. the 970 would probably be fast enough for most people to begin with. Eventually you will want something with a faster cruise speed.

My perspective - I have a HPS930 for light wind kite foil - probably not too dissimilar to the 970. It works when my other smaller foils won't have the glide. Basically 6-9kts range. We have some of those days and it's frustrating to see lighter guys (not 100kgs like me) out for 2 hours in those conditions when the sea is like green glass. However - yes it works - and cruising around on it can be a nice soul session when there's nothing else on offer - but really it's pretty boring. I'm hovering on the edge of not bothering if my T1 won't have the glide I need to keep going. The minute triton brings out their bigger mono, I will jump to that and retire the 930 or keep it for proning.

There's nothing wrong with the older series except that you'll need to sell the lot to upgrade vs being able to mix and match latest gear. If you're not planning on throwing money in regularly, the older stuff is generally fine and fairly bulletproof.

Personally I say a 45cm or at most 60cm mast is the best learning setup to make life easy for yourself.

I've been riding axis foils with a kite for a few years and really enjoy them. I'm about 90kg so take that into consideration. I use the 75cm mast, short red fuse and the 440 rear I also have the 94cm Azis Tray which is a great board.

the original 680 S (1120cm area ) series is where I started - it's pretty slow but very stable and turns on a dime (almost can pivot)I like it for slow foiling in waves where I don't want to outrun the wave.
I've recently picked up a 900 HA which is one of the older high aspect wings. It's bigger (1277cm2 area) but much faster than the 680, much better upwind performance and much more glide. It doesn't turn quite a right as the 680 and does require a slightly higher take off speed.

there is a lot of secondhand Axis gear around but happy to share my experience with those 2. My 2c on the K series (original kite series) is that it's not compatible with the newer wings axis is bringing out, so you couldn't easily move to prone/dockstart/wingding later. As far as I understand the S series can still accomodate some of these newer wings, and in any event the black fuselage isn't that expensive if you can resuse the mast, plate etc.

if you see a used 680 S at the right price, I can highly recommend that wing as a great beginner option.

Select to expand quote

ac17 said..
Sorry if you feel I disregarded your response - I hadn't, it just didn't get at what my top speed would be.

So you're saying I "won't have a top speed" - instead I will literally get catapulted into the air?

In other words it would be absolutely impossible to use this wing behind a kite?

(axis website says that although it is for wing foiling, that it could be used in light wind conditions - but they are scant on detailed information about what speed / wind range / kite size... I just wanted to know what they 'mean'.)

"Recommended use:
... Kite foiling - Light wind - All levels"
Source:
axisfoils.com/products/bsc-970-carbon-hydrofoil-wing

It's unclear what that means.

And more confusing to me are people riding bigger wings behind kites like 1010s (!).

My plan was to kite foil in light wind when I couldn't TT. I'm not into speed - but I also doubt that I'd be able to kite foil in sub 12kn (because I haven't done it yet and need to see it to believe it... Attempting to ride in 12kn on a TT would be laughable).

For learning to kite foil from zero it's probably going to be harder than it needs to be.

Big wide wings are bit tricky for water handling, getting the board in position and getting yourself out of the water onto the foil.
Lift when you water start is going to be powerful so you're going to get lobbed, without a doubt, until you get a handle on it.
That's also going to have the side effect of you pushing the mast right back in the tracks, and the side effects of that.
Once you're riding the foil is going to be super stable and you're going to wobble and flail around on the board and the foil is going to ignore you and do what it wants. That's tough to handle!

There are some on here riding enormous -- for kiting -- wings (Tone you werido) but they could foil before they got them... so it was an evolution.

IMO forget about chasing the very low wind until you can ride consistently in moderate winds ie. 15 knots. That 7m kite will struggle to make enough power to water start in 12 knots until you get some finesse with both kite and foil... and learning on a 970 in 15 knots is going to suck.

Why are you so set on the 970?

I decided not to get the 970. It was such a good price but it sounds like it was more for wing foiling. I've taken heed re all that was said here.

Thanks all!

I decided not to get the 970. It was such a good price but it sounds like it was more for wing foiling. I've taken heed re all that was said here.

Thanks all!