I was reading this earlier about the tunnels that have been dug around Palestine.

www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/map-of-gazas-complex-tunnel-network-reveals-israels-mammoth-task/news-story/411dce8fbdf53f53bddfb4d89796a56e

But I worry when the same effort could have been used to build a decent electricity system or other infrastructure.

Do you think their anger has gotten in the way of progress? Maybe they should (the Israelis in this case) should be repurposing the tunnels into electricity, water, or internet conduits? Fiber to the premises?

I guess anger is a stronger motivation for most people, but its a shame they can't see that in the long term its just a waste.

I'm no Middle Eastern expert, but it's my understanding that Gaza is tightly controlled by Israel, they supply power, water, food, medications to the area and control movement between borders. I could only imagine that if 2 million people are essentially in captivity what other options do they have other to build networks underground, outside of Israel's control. I'm sure many people in Gaza view progress as attacking Israel. And so the cycle of violence and blame continues.

Supposedly, Hamas were partially funded by redirected humanitarian aid.

Perhaps if Hamas didn't have a policy to annihilate Israel, and remove people from their homes, and do so with violence, then Israel would've softened their borders.

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myscreenname said..
I'm no Middle Eastern expert, but it's my understanding that Gaza is tightly controlled by Israel, they supply power, water, food, medications to the area and control movement between borders. I could only imagine that if 2 million people are essentially in captivity what other options do they have other to build networks underground, outside of Israel's control. I'm sure many people in Gaza view progress as attacking Israel. And so the cycle of violence and blame continues.

Germans also argued that their failing economy and starving population was due to the Jewish people. Hamas are currently justifying their position as well.

What other options do they have? Education and infrastructure would be a start.

I don't think there's a single country in the Middle East that truly gives a sh!t about the Palestinians. They all have their different reasons, but for many of them, holding the Israelis out as the bogeyman distracts their own populace from the cr@p their own governments are doing.

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bjw said..

myscreenname said..
I'm no Middle Eastern expert, but it's my understanding that Gaza is tightly controlled by Israel, they supply power, water, food, medications to the area and control movement between borders. I could only imagine that if 2 million people are essentially in captivity what other options do they have other to build networks underground, outside of Israel's control. I'm sure many people in Gaza view progress as attacking Israel. And so the cycle of violence and blame continues.

Germans also argued that their failing economy and starving population was due to the Jewish people. Hamas are currently justifying their position as well.

What other options do they have? Education and infrastructure would be a start.

I was reading that the Palestinians got an enormous amount of aid money, yet they don't seem to have spent it on building their own infrastructure, apparently getting a lot of basic services from the Israelis. Only to then have a minority there want to attack the Israelis.

I worked for a company years ago that did satellite work, and a visiting techie from Israel was telling them that they would actively try and employ the Palestinians, passing through a checkpoint each day, but when things deteriorated with violence, then they would have to stop this. It's a shame, as employment helps everyone, but what do you do if the odd one out wants to attack you?

I feel sorry for Israel. They want to try the nice way to help these people out (so that they don't become a threat), yet even when they do, they are going to be vulnerable to attack. Maybe they need to take over Gaza, allow most people back in after checking them out, and then build the place into a decent economy?

Maybe Israel should just give the Palestinians a vote. Forget about the occupation and the 2 state solution and turn radically democratic.

Last week Foreign Correspondent on the ABC ran an item on how the Israelis treat the Palestinians in the illegally occupied West Bank.
It's no wonder that there is an endless stream of young men wanting to fight against them in any way they can

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Mr Milk said..
Maybe Israel should just give the Palestinians a vote. Forget about the occupation and the 2 state solution and turn radically democratic.

Last week Foreign Correspondent on the ABC ran an item on how the Israelis treat the Palestinians in the illegally occupied West Bank.
It's no wonder that there is an endless stream of young men wanting to fight against them in any way they can

I think the Israelis gave the Palestinians the vote (in their own territory though), and instead of a democratic progressive party, they apparently voted in the current people in charge, who seem to be dedicated to fighting against Israel and not getting on with their own things. Then they started killing off the other parties....

If you included Palestine in the same state you would just get radical parties that wouldn't get voted in anyway as the only way Israel would allow it was if they had a solid majority forever.

I am not sure you can argue logic when one group has a few people that would rather blow themselves up to try and kill a few of the enemy, even though the majority of people probably just want to get along with their lives.

How about a third state? One where you are only allowed in if you pass checks to be a non-aggressor, and get given a job. Build your own future and if they become better off maybe they will prevent the radicals taking over again?

Edit: I just watched the Foreign Correspondent episode. I agree about the problem with the West Bank. It is a worry that the settlers think that it's fine to just take over. I was hoping it would be a thing where they just bought out properties, but it seems that they are just taking it.

A right-wing government. That can only be a journey down a waste of time. Getting tough with people is all fine unless they have weapons.

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FormulaNova said..
I think the Israelis gave the Palestinians the vote (in their own territory though), and instead of a democratic progressive party, they apparently voted in the current people in charge, who seem to be dedicated to fighting against Israel and not getting on with their own things. Then they started killing off the other parties....
If you included Palestine in the same state you would just get radical parties that wouldn't get voted in anyway as the only way Israel would allow it was if they had a solid majority forever.
I am not sure you can argue logic when one group has a few people that would rather blow themselves up to try and kill a few of the enemy, even though the majority of people probably just want to get along with their lives.
How about a third state? One where you are only allowed in if you pass checks to be a non-aggressor, and get given a job. Build your own future and if they become better off maybe they will prevent the radicals taking over again?
Edit: I just watched the Foreign Correspondent episode. I agree about the problem with the West Bank. It is a worry that the settlers think that it's fine to just take over. I was hoping it would be a thing where they just bought out properties, but it seems that they are just taking it.
A right-wing government. That can only be a journey down a waste of time. Getting tough with people is all fine unless they have weapons.

At first I thought you knew far more than me about the situation there, then I saw your edit. You have NFI

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myscreenname said..

FormulaNova said..
I think the Israelis gave the Palestinians the vote (in their own territory though), and instead of a democratic progressive party, they apparently voted in the current people in charge, who seem to be dedicated to fighting against Israel and not getting on with their own things. Then they started killing off the other parties....
If you included Palestine in the same state you would just get radical parties that wouldn't get voted in anyway as the only way Israel would allow it was if they had a solid majority forever.
I am not sure you can argue logic when one group has a few people that would rather blow themselves up to try and kill a few of the enemy, even though the majority of people probably just want to get along with their lives.
How about a third state? One where you are only allowed in if you pass checks to be a non-aggressor, and get given a job. Build your own future and if they become better off maybe they will prevent the radicals taking over again?
Edit: I just watched the Foreign Correspondent episode. I agree about the problem with the West Bank. It is a worry that the settlers think that it's fine to just take over. I was hoping it would be a thing where they just bought out properties, but it seems that they are just taking it.
A right-wing government. That can only be a journey down a waste of time. Getting tough with people is all fine unless they have weapons.

At first I thought you knew far more than me about the situation there, then I saw your edit. You have NFI

So? It's a forum. Give your point of view? Or do we harbour bitter hatred for each other and bring out the rocks and guns?

I have never been to Israel and have no desire to, and can only ponder what I have read, what I have been told, and what I have seen or heard. I guess I could use a meme though

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FormulaNova said..

So? It's a forum. Give your point of view? Or do we harbour bitter hatred for each other and bring out the rocks and guns?

I have never been to Israel and have no desire to, and can only ponder what I have read, what I have been told, and what I have seen or heard. I guess I could use a meme though

I did give my point of view. "And so the cycle of violence and blame continues"

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myscreenname said..
At first I thought you knew far more than me about the situation there, then I saw your edit. You have NFI

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

I have a solution.

Joking aside, I think the Israelis could have turned our desert areas into productive areas. They seem to have spent a lot of time and money on rehabilitating lots of parts of Israel. When I was watching the foreign correspondent program I was wondering why you would bother for such a desolate looking place, but they seem to have the resources behind them to make it work.

To be fair, they rehabilitated parts of Israel by reversing some of the problems over time, which is not quite the same as the deserts here, but they have spent on desalination plants to provide a lot of water and then gone on from there to be agricultural exporters. In a desert!

Israel is not a desert except the southern inland bit. Most of the country receives about 600mm of mainly winter rain.
Are you saying that the local arab population couldn't have done similar projects? It all costs money, so I asked MS Copilot how much private capital flows into Israel. Figures only go back to 1995, but the average is about 3% of GDP. It seems fair to assume it was probably higher during the period when the kibbutzim were being established as many of them were built by immigrants from the USA and Britain who came with family assets. The Palestinians are refugees in their own land without access to easy capital
And fertiliser runoff from intensive agriculture there is just as much a problem as it is anywhere

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Mr Milk said..
The Palestinians are refugees in their own land without access to easy capital

What makes them refugees in their own land? Many cross over daily to work in Israel. Israel has strict policies on ensuring they are paid in line with locals, they guarantee places in Israeli Universities and many other benefits to aid Palestinians toward improved living standards.

Meanwhile Israel has put up with daily violence and terrorism from that side. It would be fair that they are also strict on their border.

They were kicked out of their own houses and villages during the 1949 Israel war of liberation and again during the 1967 war.
Israel exists as colonialism's last hurrah. Zionism is a European idea. Nobody asked the Palestinians about the Balfour declaration that really gave it legs. Just like colonisation everywhere.


It's not antisemitic to oppose Israel. Anybody can believe what they like in terms of God, but claiming that residence in the area 2-3 000 years ago gives them title now is absurd.

If you are interested in the history of the area and why things as they are, would recommend 'prisoners of geography' by Tim Marshall (it covers the whole world but the middle east section is relevant).

For a rundown of the current conflict and its origins, I've recently listened to school of war ep 94, which was a good listen.

Like most things, its complicated and not best solved by Jared Kushner.

One does wonder if the Kimberly Plan had have gained traction in 1945
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberley_Plan
Would Israel be a peaceful nation within Australia
Or would it tried to have annex the iron ore reserve in the region and still be in a constant state of War

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Mr Milk said..
Israel is not a desert except the southern inland bit. Most of the country receives about 600mm of mainly winter rain.
Are you saying that the local arab population couldn't have done similar projects? It all costs money, so I asked MS Copilot how much private capital flows into Israel. Figures only go back to 1995, but the average is about 3% of GDP. It seems fair to assume it was probably higher during the period when the kibbutzim were being established as many of them were built by immigrants from the USA and Britain who came with family assets. The Palestinians are refugees in their own land without access to easy capital
And fertiliser runoff from intensive agriculture there is just as much a problem as it is anywhere

Looked like desert to me, but I was just assuming. I looked it up just now and the answer was:

"What percent of Israel is desert?
60%
Facts and Figures. The Negev extends some 14,475 square kilometers - 60% of the State of Israel - from Ashdod to Eilat. The Negev comprises more than half of Israel's land area, and only 13% of the country's population lives there."

I wasn't saying the local arab population couldn't have done similar projects, but I am now, thanks for asking. Proof is in the doing. Sure, anyone can do this, but actually doing it is a challenge. I would suggest that if there is so much foreign aid going into Palestine, they don't seem to have done similar projects.

Maybe you and myscreenname can get a room and argue about this stuff? Sounds like you are both hot on this topic, just on different sides.

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IanR said..
Would Israel be a peaceful nation within Australia
Or would it tried to have annex the iron ore reserve in the region and still be in a constant state of War

Interesting question... some people seem to have a sense of entitlement, and I wonder if this is the case in Israel? I think it would be easy to get caught up in the 'God wanted us to do this' belief, whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or conspiracy theorist.