It really is of little consequence how many people are convinced about either side of the argument.

How many times have we seen people opposing government policy only for the government to do an about face?

Whilst "The Economy" is the number one consideration for those who make the rules the economy will rule.

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japie said..

How many times have we seen people opposing government policy only for the government to do an about face?

rarely.

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TonyAbbott said..
Co2 is plant food

It can also be toxic to us humans, whose side are you greenies on?

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Brent in Qld said..

TonyAbbott said..
Co2 is plant food

It can also be toxic to us humans, whose side are you greenies on?

I don't think the atmosphere has levels of Co2 anywhere near what is needed to kill people. I've heard of people dying from being exposed to C02. One example was in Indonesia where Co2 emitted from a volcano pooled in a low lying area and some people went into it and died.

Its pretty warm today in Sydney but it is summer. Yesterday it was quite cool.

www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-18/australia-climate-how-germany-is-closing-down-its-coal-industry/11902884

Sky won't fall in. Good for the German economy.

"Berlin has announced a timetable to close not only every remaining brown coal mine but all the carbon-emitting power plants that burn coal to make electricity, by 2038.

"In a grand compromise that many Australians might find hard to fathom, trade unions, energy companies, green groups and government have all agreed that the coal industry must go.

"And the Government will give tens of billions of dollars to coal regions to create new jobs and industries."

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holy guacamole said..
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-18/australia-climate-how-germany-is-closing-down-its-coal-industry/11902884

Sky won't fall in. Good for the German economy.

"Berlin has announced a timetable to close not only every remaining brown coal mine but all the carbon-emitting power plants that burn coal to make electricity, by 2038.

"In a grand compromise that many Australians might find hard to fathom, trade unions, energy companies, green groups and government have all agreed that the coal industry must go.

"And the Government will give tens of billions of dollars to coal regions to create new jobs and industries."

Yes lets do like the Germans and import all baseload Nuclear power our neighbor (France) has available very cheap to us, then we get rid of coal too why not.

Bono, tell the whole story not the only half that suits you.

It's not my story...it's the ABC's....Foreign Correspondent.

What's bono got to do with it? He's an ageing rock star.

Edit: Australia has massive amounts of sun and wind - things Germany doesn't really have as a largely overcast and almost landlocked country.

The reason the German example is worth looking at, is because Australia can learn from the way all stakeholders came together to resolve the issues of fossil fuel burning for power production. The fact that Germany still gets a small amount of it's power (about 10%) from European producers is not the point here. Germany is still a net exporter of electricity. Don't fall off your chair over that 10% Novetti.

Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

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holy guacamole said..
It's not my story...it's the ABC's....Foreign Correspondent.

What's bono got to do with it? He's an ageing rock star.

Yeah. Close.

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holy guacamole said..
Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

Lets embrace the future ones, they sound so much better than anything that currently exists

I hadn't considered your the bonominator, but now it makes all makes sense.

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holy guacamole said..
It's not my story...it's the ABC's....Foreign Correspondent.

What's bono got to do with it? He's an ageing rock star.

Edit: Australia has massive amounts of sun and wind - things Germany doesn't really have as a largely overcast and almost landlocked country.

The reason the German example is worth looking at, is because Australia can learn from the way all stakeholders came together to resolve the issues of fossil fuel burning for power production. The fact that Germany still gets a small amount of it's power (about 10%) from European producers is not the point here. Germany is still a net exporter of electricity. Don't fall off your chair over that 10% Novetti.

Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

German a Net exporter of power?
HaHaHa

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Mobydisc said..

Brent in Qld said..

TonyAbbott said..
Co2 is plant food

It can also be toxic to us humans, whose side are you greenies on?

I don't think the atmosphere has levels of Co2 anywhere near what is needed to kill people. I've heard of people dying from being exposed to C02. One example was in Indonesia where Co2 emitted from a volcano pooled in a low lying area and some people went into it and died.

Its pretty warm today in Sydney but it is summer. Yesterday it was quite cool.

CO2 cannot kill people as it is not poisonous or toxic, the people died because of a lack of oxygen, the air from the volcano displaced the air in the low lying area.

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cammd said..Lets embrace the future ones, they sound so much better than anything that currently exists
I hadn't considered your the bonominator, but now it makes all makes sense.

holy guacamole said..
Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

"You're"......not "your"....and what's the bonominator?

"Makes all makes sense"........LOL sure makes sense.

Seems to be quite a lot of paranoia about users here.

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novetti said..German a Net exporter of power? HaHaHa

holy guacamole said..
It's not my story...it's the ABC's....Foreign Correspondent.

What's bono got to do with it? He's an ageing rock star.

Edit: Australia has massive amounts of sun and wind - things Germany doesn't really have as a largely overcast and almost landlocked country.

The reason the German example is worth looking at, is because Australia can learn from the way all stakeholders came together to resolve the issues of fossil fuel burning for power production. The fact that Germany still gets a small amount of it's power (about 10%) from European producers is not the point here. Germany is still a net exporter of electricity. Don't fall off your chair over that 10% Novetti.

Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

Yes, it's been a net exporter for about 20 years.
Haha?
In 2019 was a net importer by a very small amount. So you are right on a very technical point, but I suspect it's a blip and not likely to become a trend looking at the roadmap for investment in renewable energy systems and the grid.

Nuclear imports were a tiny 13.8% in 2017. Novetti, you should tell the whole story mate.

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Little Jon said..

Mobydisc said..

Brent in Qld said..

TonyAbbott said..
Co2 is plant food

It can also be toxic to us humans, whose side are you greenies on?

I don't think the atmosphere has levels of Co2 anywhere near what is needed to kill people. I've heard of people dying from being exposed to C02. One example was in Indonesia where Co2 emitted from a volcano pooled in a low lying area and some people went into it and died.

Its pretty warm today in Sydney but it is summer. Yesterday it was quite cool.

CO2 cannot kill people as it is not poisonous or toxic, the people died because of a lack of oxygen, the air from the volcano displaced the air in the low lying area.

Hi Little Jon & Moby
My original post aimed to highlight the new clothes the emperor was wearing on the day.
But as we are discussing facts & figures without memes or one liners, I agree the volcano scenario was short term lack of oxygen. However carbon dioxide retention becomes toxic & causes a multitude of issues ranging from feeling dizzy to the worst case, respiratory failure.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia

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holy guacamole said..

cammd said..Lets embrace the future ones, they sound so much better than anything that currently exists
I hadn't considered your the bonominator, but now it makes all makes sense.

holy guacamole said..
Australia could build expensive nuclear power plants or embrace the future technologies that are cheaper and ultimately more sustainable. Nuclear in Australia wold send our bills through the roof.n

"You're"......not "your"....and what's the bonominator?

"Makes all makes sense"........LOL sure makes sense.

Seems to be quite a lot of paranoia about users here.

Oh, its okay, its nothing to worry about. There used to be this guy here and he was so passionate about certain topics that he would get a bit riled up by some of the discussion and then become a bit too agressive about it.

Otherwise he was a good contributor.

He seemed to pop up as different identities, which is why people keep mentioning it.

Its good to hear that you are not an architect and you are not him and your discussion style is much better.

^^ Funny. Some people here seem worried about this. Enough to go off topic.

Goes to show how some people can easily get paranoid about stuff online. I remember not so long ago that some users were convinced kato was a double agent or that I must have been that horrid entity "The Truth".

"Good to see I'm not an architect". LOL. Well I'm relieved for you too.

If it works for people to believe I'm he/she/the tooth fairy, we can run with whatever role play works.

I'm flattered by your assessment of my discussion style. Are you the resident authority on DS?

Weeeeeeeeeeee.....Bononimo!!!!!!!!!!

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Pugwash said..
Weeeeeeeeeeee.....Bononimo!!!!!!!!!!

RUOK?

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holy guacamole said..
^^ Funny. Some people here seem worried about this. Enough to go off topic.

Goes to show how some people can easily get paranoid about stuff online. I remember not so long ago that some users were convinced kato was a double agent or that I must have been that horrid entity "The Truth".

"Good to see I'm not an architect". LOL. Well I'm relieved for you too.

If it works for people to believe I'm he/she/the tooth fairy, we can run with whatever role play works.

I'm flattered by your assessment of my discussion style. Are you the resident authority on DS?

Yes, I am the resident authority on discussion style. Thank you for enquiring.

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novetti said..Yes lets do like the Germans and import all baseload Nuclear power our neighbor (France) has available very cheap to us, then we get rid of coal too why not.

Bono, tell the whole story not the only half that suits you.

holy guacamole said..
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-18/australia-climate-how-germany-is-closing-down-its-coal-industry/11902884

Sky won't fall in. Good for the German economy.

"Berlin has announced a timetable to close not only every remaining brown coal mine but all the carbon-emitting power plants that burn coal to make electricity, by 2038.

"In a grand compromise that many Australians might find hard to fathom, trade unions, energy companies, green groups and government have all agreed that the coal industry must go.

"And the Government will give tens of billions of dollars to coal regions to create new jobs and industries."

13.8% is imported nuclear. That's hardly "base load".

Tell the whole story mate.

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holy guacamole said..

Pugwash said..
Weeeeeeeeeeee.....Bononimo!!!!!!!!!!

RUOK?

I'm great... thanks for asking...

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

holy guacamole said..
^^ Funny. Some people here seem worried about this. Enough to go off topic.

Goes to show how some people can easily get paranoid about stuff online. I remember not so long ago that some users were convinced kato was a double agent or that I must have been that horrid entity "The Truth".

"Good to see I'm not an architect". LOL. Well I'm relieved for you too.

If it works for people to believe I'm he/she/the tooth fairy, we can run with whatever role play works.

I'm flattered by your assessment of my discussion style. Are you the resident authority on DS?

Yes, I am the resident authority on discussion style. Thank you for enquiring.

Yes, this is correct.

here is a summary from an experiment completed in 1856 by Eunice Foote

An atmosphere of [carbon dioxide] would give to our earth a high temperature; and if as some suppose, at one period of its history the air had mixed with it a larger proportion than at present, an increased temperature.must have necessarily resulted.

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holy guacamole said..

novetti said..Yes lets do like the Germans and import all baseload Nuclear power our neighbor (France) has available very cheap to us, then we get rid of coal too why not.

Bono, tell the whole story not the only half that suits you.

holy guacamole said..
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-18/australia-climate-how-germany-is-closing-down-its-coal-industry/11902884

Sky won't fall in. Good for the German economy.

"Berlin has announced a timetable to close not only every remaining brown coal mine but all the carbon-emitting power plants that burn coal to make electricity, by 2038.

"In a grand compromise that many Australians might find hard to fathom, trade unions, energy companies, green groups and government have all agreed that the coal industry must go.

"And the Government will give tens of billions of dollars to coal regions to create new jobs and industries."

13.8% is imported nuclear. That's hardly "base load".

Tell the whole story mate.

Bono, what you dont understand is that if the wind stops or the sun doesnt shine is not a problem if you are connected to a reliable supply from your French neighbors, on demand.

Now ask if the Germans plan to disconnect all connections from that available source, on tap...sure that is not happening.

Now would be interesting to know what they plan to use instead of coal in their steelmaking industry...bamboo? Guacamole shells?

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holy guacamole said..

Yes, it's been a net exporter for about 20 years.
Haha?
In 2019 was a net importer by a very small amount. So you are right on a very technical point, but I suspect it's a blip and not likely to become a trend looking at the roadmap for investment in renewable energy systems and the grid.

Nuclear imports were a tiny 13.8% in 2017. Novetti, you should tell the whole story mate.

The reason Germany's power exports are declining is because of the reduction in coal produced power and the expense of CO2 pricing. I doubt this trend will reverse unless they start the coal stations back up. Reducing coal is a good thing theoretically, but is not helping the stability of the system.

They will likley have to import more nuclear to keep the grid stable.

www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/09/05/renewables-threaten-german-economy-energy-supply-mckinsey-warns-in-new-report/#d8a42048e482

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Paradox said..

holy guacamole said..

Yes, it's been a net exporter for about 20 years.
Haha?
In 2019 was a net importer by a very small amount. So you are right on a very technical point, but I suspect it's a blip and not likely to become a trend looking at the roadmap for investment in renewable energy systems and the grid.

Nuclear imports were a tiny 13.8% in 2017. Novetti, you should tell the whole story mate.

The reason Germany's power exports are declining is because of the reduction in coal produced power and the expense of CO2 pricing. I doubt this trend will reverse unless they start the coal stations back up. Reducing coal is a good thing theoretically, but is not helping the stability of the system.

They will likley have to import more nuclear to keep the grid stable.

www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/09/05/renewables-threaten-german-economy-energy-supply-mckinsey-warns-in-new-report/#d8a42048e482

I just read the article and it sounds a bit perilous, the more you rely on renewables the less stable the grid becomes however HG explained that it will all be sorted by "future technologies" so all good I guess.

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Paradox said..

cammd said..

I just read the article and it sounds a bit perilous, the more you rely on renewables the less stable the grid becomes however HG explained that it will all be sorted by "future technologies" so all good I guess.

It doesn't matter what your beliefs are, dispatchable power, inertia and stability are core elements of a Power Grid.

Right now we do not have the ability to have stand alone networks that can work with more than about 50% renewables (except hydro), and pushing for anything more until workable solutions are found is dumb.

You can buy intertia and stability, plenty of synchronous condensers on the way now. But dispatchable power....you could spend a bomb on batteries I guess. My money is on pumped hydro. It's clean, and solves all three problems.

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Harrow said....My money is on pumped hydro. It's clean, and solves all three problems.

Exactly. AEMO doesn't mention large scale battery storage in their 2040/50 modelling. They do however mention a significant amount of dispatchable behind-the-meter batteries and a lot of pumped hydro. No nuclear.

Don't worry, the sky won't fall, western civilisation won't end and we won't be dumb enough to build nuclear power plants or even dumber - new coal fired power plants. Thank fully no sane banker would back a new coal plant and no sane politician a nuclear plant.

The government will fund all the new coal plants.

Money would flood in for nuclear. Australians are getting keener for nuclear every day.

The consumer should have the choice of where their power comes from. Those that want cheap power can choose coal, gas or nuclear (when it is built).

Others can choose unreliable expensive solar, wind, fairy magic and power outages.