Surely it's only because their pre covid 457 workers did the maths and went back to their homelands. And the new Aussie staff, had time to think and now can't be arsed to work for subsistent wages and prefer sitting on a nice beach.

Is there any sympathy for all these hospitality outlets who don't like paying proper rates crying poor?

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KiteboyDave said..
Surely it's only because their pre covid 457 workers did the maths and went back to their homelands. And the new Aussie staff, had time to think and now can't be arsed to work for subsistent wages and prefer sitting on a nice beach.

Is there any sympathy for all these hospitality outlets who don't like paying proper rates crying poor?

You don't know what the f##k your on about
I can tell you that

The bar girls and boys where I work get paid more than my wife who works as a medical receptionist with 30 years expierience.

Actually even the yardie gets more.

It was like that pre covid as well.

Where did you get your information Davie Boy?

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cauncy said..

KiteboyDave said..
Surely it's only because their pre covid 457 workers did the maths and went back to their homelands. And the new Aussie staff, had time to think and now can't be arsed to work for subsistent wages and prefer sitting on a nice beach.

Is there any sympathy for all these hospitality outlets who don't like paying proper rates crying poor?

You don't know what the f##k your on about
I can tell you that

Yeah. That observation extends well beyond this post.

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kk said..
The bar girls and boys where I work get paid more than my wife who works as a medical receptionist with 30 years expierience.

Actually even the yardie gets more.

It was like that pre covid as well.

Where did you get your information Davie Boy?

www.skynews.com.au/business/hospitality-worker-shortages-to-exceed-100000/video/002007e1116a77e4b2ee738660332499

Do you know how to use google?

It's a known problem throughout Vic and New South Wales, may not apply in Rolf Harris' WA.

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KiteboyDave said..
Surely it's only because their pre covid 457 workers did the maths and went back to their homelands. And the new Aussie staff, had time to think and now can't be arsed to work for subsistent wages and prefer sitting on a nice beach.

Is there any sympathy for all these hospitality outlets who don't like paying proper rates crying poor?

You really appear to not understand the math of running a business. If you're paying 2 or 3 hundred bucks a day in rent. You have 2 staff earning $200 each a day.

Thats $600+ in basic cost. If you're earning $2 a coffee, how many do you have to sell to cover your costs?

The add the hipster cafe architecture cost ($50,000+) every 5 years to look modern, your refrigerator breaks down $5g. Electricity cost, insurance, your mortgage on home and business etc etc.

The left seem to criticize without understanding anything!!

Agreed. Nor do they understand their privileged positions earned by the real economy to whine about how hard done by they are. Ironically the leftist Maxims throughout history have been the best and quickest way to an extremist right wing society. The irony is lost on them douches.

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bjw said..

You really appear to not understand the math of running a business. If you're paying 2 or 3 hundred bucks a day in rent. You have 2 staff earning $200 each a day.

Thats $600+ in basic cost. If you're earning $2 a coffee, how many do you have to sell to cover your costs?

The add the hipster cafe architecture cost ($50,000+) every 5 years to look modern, your refrigerator breaks down $5g. Electricity cost, insurance, your mortgage on home and business etc etc.

The left seem to criticize without understanding anything!!

You really appear to not understand the math of passing on the cost of running a business to the customer.

If a buisness is not economically viable, then it should go belly up, simple!

That's how capitalism works.

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KiteboyDave said..

bjw said..

You really appear to not understand the math of running a business. If you're paying 2 or 3 hundred bucks a day in rent. You have 2 staff earning $200 each a day.

Thats $600+ in basic cost. If you're earning $2 a coffee, how many do you have to sell to cover your costs?

The add the hipster cafe architecture cost ($50,000+) every 5 years to look modern, your refrigerator breaks down $5g. Electricity cost, insurance, your mortgage on home and business etc etc.

The left seem to criticize without understanding anything!!

You really appear to not understand the math of passing on the cost of running a business to the customer.

If a buisness is not economically viable, then it should go belly up, simple!

That's how capitalism works.

It should even end up in the realestate rent prices falling. If you can't sustain a business paying $2000 a week rent, and there are no other viable business to use the same space, the rent will fall.

Ultimately you will end up with coffee shops that are all returning roughly the same profit, with the good ones keeping staff based on other factors other than wages.

All of this is moderated by other factors, but simply, if there are not enough workers, then prices will rise as cafes need to pay more to attract and keep staff. If there are limited staff then some cafes will close and costs will rise.

Should there be a need to interfere in these market forces or should coffee shop customers pay what it costs?

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FormulaNova said..
Should there be a need to interfere in these market forces or should coffee shop customers pay what it costs?

Customers should ultimately pay for what it costs, I think that's going to happen. Way too many cafes anyway.

I'm hoping the idea the idea of a big Australia and the our addiction of massive immigration to fill skill shortages/cheap labour is wound right back.

Attention all coffee shop owners, if you see this guy ^^^^^^^^^^ enter your shop charge him $20 for his coffee as he is more than happy to pay for all the overheads of what it actually costs to run a business.

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lotofwind said..
Attention all coffee shop owners, if you see this guy ^^^^^^^^^^ enter your shop charge him $20 for his coffee as he is more than happy to pay for all the overheads of what it actually costs to run a business.

He'll be the guy in the I love Australia Post t-shirt.

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Pugwash said..
He'll be the guy in the I love Australia Post t-shirt.

I'll be wearing a tshirt saying

"Tell It How It Is"

Bar staff in Newcastle cbd earn more then most tradies/ trade labourers and assistants on building sites.
I've got friends who work Friday to Sunday and earn more looking at hot chicks then guys working 6 days a week driving there own Ute n tools around.They don't have to risk there physical health everyday either.

Australia has a lazy people problem not a labour shortage. The building industry needs imports immediately!

unless we boost our immigration, in a few years australia will not have enough workers to support our retirees.

we have a population top heavy in the 50 plus age bracket. the domestic birth rate has not kept pace & without migrant workers and families there simply won't be the taxpayer dollars to keep the place running.

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stamp said..
unless we boost our immigration, in a few years australia will not have enough workers to support our retirees.

we have a population top heavy in the 50 plus age bracket. the domestic birth rate has not kept pace & without migrant workers and families there simply won't be the taxpayer dollars to keep the place running.

Have you ever wondered whether declining birth rates are a symptom of existing costs of living? I.e. huge house prices mean that families have less kids. I wonder if there is data that shows birthrates in different cities and regional areas and compare them?

I think the whole basket case of letting housing get so high has resulted in many other problems, and declining birth rates is one of them. Who can afford to have many kids when both are working full time to cover the cost of a hefty mortgage?

More and more immigration is just kicking the can down the road.

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KiteboyDave said..

bjw said..

You really appear to not understand the math of running a business. If you're paying 2 or 3 hundred bucks a day in rent. You have 2 staff earning $200 each a day.

Thats $600+ in basic cost. If you're earning $2 a coffee, how many do you have to sell to cover your costs?

The add the hipster cafe architecture cost ($50,000+) every 5 years to look modern, your refrigerator breaks down $5g. Electricity cost, insurance, your mortgage on home and business etc etc.

The left seem to criticize without understanding anything!!

You really appear to not understand the math of passing on the cost of running a business to the customer.

If a buisness is not economically viable, then it should go belly up, simple!

That's how capitalism works.

Capitalism also works that if employment costs are too high, people don't get hired that otherwise should.

Hence the growing underclass in Australia.

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FormulaNova said..

stamp said..
unless we boost our immigration, in a few years australia will not have enough workers to support our retirees.

we have a population top heavy in the 50 plus age bracket. the domestic birth rate has not kept pace & without migrant workers and families there simply won't be the taxpayer dollars to keep the place running.

Have you ever wondered whether declining birth rates are a symptom of existing costs of living? I.e. huge house prices mean that families have less kids. I wonder if there is data that shows birthrates in different cities and regional areas and compare them?

I think the whole basket case of letting housing get so high has resulted in many other problems, and declining birth rates is one of them. Who can afford to have many kids when both are working full time to cover the cost of a hefty mortgage?

More and more immigration is just kicking the can down the road.

Spot on, you can raise 2 kids or drag up 4 kids.


But on the flip side people want everything new and shiny, more than the Jones's and they want it now.
Why the hell people need such big houses is bazaar........ oh wait, its so parents and kids can live in the same house and not interact with each other.

Immigration works right up until the point they realize Aussies have it easy and they adopt our attitude

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bjw said..
Capitalism also works that if employment costs are too high, people don't get hired that otherwise should.

Hence the growing underclass in Australia.

You obviously haven't done the maths.

If an employer can't afford to pay someone for their skills it means another employer can. WTF are you on about, Willard?

Where is this growing underclass in Australia, and who are they?

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Craig66 said..
Why the hell people need such big houses is bazaar........ oh wait, its so parents and kids can live in the same house and not interact with each other.

Immigration works right up until the point they realize Aussies have it easy and they adopt our attitude

I don't know if people 'want' big houses, but its more a case of the land cost is so high that the house has to be something decent to make it worthwhile.

I also suspect that a lot of immigrants come here thinking 'wow, $90k is a great wage, I will enjoy living in Australia' and then realise that housing is crazy expensive and that $90k is not so good anymore.

I do agree though that the next generation of those immigrants will become 'Australian' and expect the exact same as the rest of do, which doesn't really solve the problem... unless you just blindly import more immigrants and not worry about fixing the problem.

More and more I am surprised that younger Australians don't get angry about house prices and push it politically, but instead seem to want to push themselves to afford something that shouldn't be so expensive in the first place.

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FormulaNova said..

Craig66 said..
Why the hell people need such big houses is bazaar........ oh wait, its so parents and kids can live in the same house and not interact with each other.

Immigration works right up until the point they realize Aussies have it easy and they adopt our attitude

I don't know if people 'want' big houses, but its more a case of the land cost is so high that the house has to be something decent to make it worthwhile.

I also suspect that a lot of immigrants come here thinking 'wow, $90k is a great wage, I will enjoy living in Australia' and then realise that housing is crazy expensive and that $90k is not so good anymore.

I do agree though that the next generation of those immigrants will become 'Australian' and expect the exact same as the rest of do, which doesn't really solve the problem... unless you just blindly import more immigrants and not worry about fixing the problem.

More and more I am surprised that younger Australians don't get angry about house prices and push it politically, but instead seem to want to push themselves to afford something that shouldn't be so expensive in the first place.

Housing should never have been allowed to become a profit making vehicle, is how i would've put it. Now its f**cked for just about everybody.

i don't know how some cafe owners survive in all honesty.

Government granted license of private property ownership and the enclosure of the rent - allowed to capitalise into the price is the fundamental reason for land price rise and the biggest game in town. That includes resources under the land. Things will never change until that does. Any policy to make housing more "affordable" will just in turn capitalise back into the price and the profits taken by the private owner.

. and yet tax dollars pay for all the infrastructure, the main reason for land/housing price increases.


a better system would be to lease the land at a price, rent payed to the government who then pays the entire population a dividend. Then all the population shares in the lands productive value instead of the few private owners. The lease holder may tthen do what they want to increase the productivity of the land for their own again. This would extract out the rent of the land hence it would not capitalise into the price. Housing - land values would stabilise and speculation would diminish.


works for Singapore. And they have sweet FA land.


but too much money to be made in this game so it won't change.

see the fundamental problem, the wood from the trees.

^^Yep.

We need to gradually move to a model where property is expensive to own, which will make it cheap to buy. This cuts out the legacy of unearned / undeserved wealth, and addresses inequality - particularly the intergenerational sort. The taxes raised on land can be offset by reduced taxes on labour.

Of course you won't win too many votes taking that policy to the next election.

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eppo said..
Government granted license of private property ownership and the enclosure of the rent - allowed to capitalise into the price is the fundamental reason for land price rise and the biggest game in town. That includes resources under the land. Things will never change until that does. Any policy to make housing more "affordable" will just in turn capitalise back into the price and the profits taken by the private owner.

. and yet tax dollars pay for all the infrastructure, the main reason for land/housing price increases.


a better system would be to lease the land at a price, rent payed to the government who then pays the entire population a dividend. Then all the population shares in the lands productive value instead of the few private owners. The lease holder may tthen do what they want to increase the productivity of the land for their own again. This would extract out the rent of the land hence it would not capitalise into the price. Housing - land values would stabilise and speculation would diminish.


works for Singapore. And they have sweet FA land.


but too much money to be made in this game so it won't change.

see the fundamental problem, the wood from the trees.

Great can I lease my piece of land on the Sydney Harbour waterfront opposite the Opera House .. it should be affordable now that speculation has diminished.

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eppo said..
Government granted license of private property ownership and the enclosure of the rent - allowed to capitalise into the price is the fundamental reason for land price rise and the biggest game in town. That includes resources under the land. Things will never change until that does. Any policy to make housing more "affordable" will just in turn capitalise back into the price and the profits taken by the private owner.

. and yet tax dollars pay for all the infrastructure, the main reason for land/housing price increases.

see the fundamental problem, the wood from the trees.

Sorry Eppo. I know you read a book on this, but the reason for today's crazy house prices, at least in cities, is the push from investors. Its cheap to buy investment properties as you can offset the losses against your PAYG income. Lots of people do it. Some make huge profits, some make losses. Unfortunately the media pumps up the stories of people that make fortunes and own dozens of houses and leaves out the stories of people that lose a motza on them.

If you sat down and looked at an investment property and used the rental income to work out what you could afford to pay for it, you would need to pay much less. In Sydney at least, most rental properties would return a very low yield, and its only the demand from investors that keeps up the price. If you weren't able to claim a 50% free pass on the capital gain, you would probably not bother.

When I bought a house in Sydney years ago the idea of investing in property was not so common. People did it, but it was off the back of low values and changes to the CGT discount. John Howard introduced this in 1999 and when people started seeing the effect of it, people started snapping up housing and it has been self perpetuating ever since. Values kept going up so much that all you had to do was eat the losses for a few years and then sell. Banks were tripping over themselves to lend and they did, to anyone.

Now, we have crazy prices of housing where rental returns are independent of price.

The worst thing in my opinion is that we need low interest rates to encourage investment in businesses. Without it people dont build businesses.

Now, interest rates are dominated by the effect of over-spending in housing, so the RBA will need to increase interest rates to stop it imploding, when in reality we need low rates for business development.

The only way this can change is to change the tax bonus on capital gains that applies to housing. Wind it back to an indexed method or take it away entirely.

You would do well to read more then. I've done far more than read a book.

You couldn't be more wrong above. But alas you are spewing out the usual suspects bar flies espouse everyday.


Plenty of countries with differing tax policies on capital gains, negative gearing, housing affordability schemes etc etc etc And these have also been vastly different throughout history, but Housing affordability has always been an issue and it always will be.

Allow the economic rent to be enclosed on land through private property ownership and people will chase it, speculate and even go to war. Heck America itself was one big speculative land grab chasing the rent.

the fundamental structure is the issue. Change anything within that structure wont do anything over time. It all ends up going "pop" eventually. Always has, always will.

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eppo said..
You would do well to read more then. I've done far more than read a book.

You couldn't be more wrong above. But alas you are spewing out the usual suspects bar flies espouse everyday.


Plenty of countries with differing tax policies on capital gains, negative gearing, housing affordability schemes etc etc etc And these have also been vastly different throughout history, but Housing affordability has always been an issue and it always will be.

Allow the economic rent to be enclosed on land through private property ownership and people will chase it, speculate and even go to war. Heck America itself was one big speculative land grab chasing the rent.

the fundamental structure is the issue. Change anything within that structure wont do anything over time. It all ends up going "pop" eventually. Always has, always will.

Bar flies must be more academic where you live. I would expect them to say 'bloody politicians, can't get anything right' and be done with it. Most would probably just complain that house prices are increasing and not even understand how or why. (just like you?)

Nah, I still think you are stuck on just what you read in a single book. It sounds ideal to change things, but is that ever going to change? I am not even sure I understand what you are saying... are you saying not to have private property ownership? If so, clearly that would never change in our society, so you may as well stick to solutions that are able to be implemented instead of championing an idea that may be right, but never able to be tested.

I think your response is typical of a lot of people now. They think its too hard and bring up arguments that other countries have the same problems. Well, its not that hard to understand what's happening. Excess demand. Demand from investors, and in some countries excess demand from foreigners.

Houses in the USA are cheap. Houses here where we have a lot of available land are crazy expensive and still going up. This seemed to have changed around 2000. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out what changed at that time and see the link between that change and the change in behavior of investors and the impact on housing.

Labor have given up on trying to fix this problem as they have lost two elections where they had these policies. The Libs are just ignoring the problem and relying on baby boomers and other investment property owners to keep voting for them. The younger people seem to be just ignoring the reality of the problem and blaming 'boomers' not the government that have created an environment where investors are pushing up housing prices.

We sure aren't going to move away from private land ownership, and the way things are going the government are not going to actually solve the problem and will even push policies to push up prices even more by offering people ways of using their Super or lower deposits to make the problem worse.

Some of us were just lucky to be in the right place at the right time.

It's not only tax laws favouring property investors.

There is plenty of "funny money" from foreign investors and widespread money laundering feeding the Australian property bubble.

Hospitality venues start to raise prices as worker shortage, goods costs hit hard after COVID - ABC News www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/coffee-dining-prices-rise-covid-worker-shortage/100604126

has anyone considered the worker shortage has come about because anyone with half a brain is refusing to take the clot shot....?
and maybe property prices are about to crash due to the many and every increasingly unreported deaths due to side effects....?

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KiteboyDave said..
It's not only tax laws favouring property investors.

There is plenty of "funny money" from foreign investors and widespread money laundering feeding the Australian property bubble.

Hospitality venues start to raise prices as worker shortage, goods costs hit hard after COVID - ABC News www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-09/coffee-dining-prices-rise-covid-worker-shortage/100604126

Yeah, that's the way capitalism works. You are right. More demand for labour pushes up the wages.

When reading that link I also came across this article which tells us what we already know. That if there was a genuine shortage in areas, the wages would go up, but for most they haven't gone up at all.
www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-19/verrender-the-great-skilled-worker-shortage-wages-oecd/100077706

It mentions some of the migrant workers themselves finding it difficult to get work, which clearly tells you that in those cases there is no shortage.


As for funny money pumping up housing, I wonder how much effect Chinese money had. A lot of people in China are/were nervous that the money they made was something that they were not supposed to have so they have gotten it out of the country before the government could take it, and Australian property was probably a good bet, with the potential to get residency as well.

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theDoctor said..

has anyone considered the worker shortage has come about because anyone with half a brain is refusing to take the clot shot....?
and maybe property prices are about to crash due to the many and every increasingly unreported deaths due to side effects....?

Over here in the west of A, there are shortages of bar staff and cafe workers it seems. There is no restriction on whether you can work if you are unvaccinated, so that can't be the problem. Unvaxxed people are not stopped from working.

My personal feeling is that these industries were supported by international students doing their work. Where I used to work all the staff at the cafes were international students, and with those having returned home, there are few people that want to do those jobs.

Our cycling group got told off the other day for turning up at a coffee shop that only had two staff and the owner started telling us his problems getting workers.