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japie said..

Macroscien said..
By going to my farm near Dalby from Gold Coast I could see the straight contrast.
200km of the sea and land is completely dry.But when you drive you will see many Deepwater markers on the roads inside.
It means that once in the year there is an abundance of water even deep inland.So the main concern for our engineers was to drain this water as soon as possible to the sea.You can't find a single project to capture this water that falls and may last for years if retained beside dams.We simply need to build more lakes inside wast Australian land. Capture this rain that falls once or few times a year in excess.

Read this:

https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-au/books/peter-andrews/back-from-the-brink-how-australia-s-landscape-can-be-saved/GOR006151836?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4oaCrb7X3AIVk6mWCh01wAnLEAQYASABEgLbwvD_BwE

Hard call to spend $11 on the book for drought hit farmer .Anyway I have some suspicious about title.
Australia Landscape preservation ? I think that in era we talk about processing whole Mars into Earth like planet , Australie deserve also some geo engineering.We don't want to preserve 90 % surface as a dry desert if we could convert into green pasture, bush or lakes.Australia is driest continent on Earth but don't need to be.

I don't know if I read about this here, or if I saw it on a tv program, but is this the future of farming here?

www.sundropfarms.com/

reneweconomy.com.au/world-first-solar-tower-powered-tomato-farm-opens-port-augusta-41643/

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actiomax said..
Ok there is another solution I've heard to irrigate the interior & its to build a kilometer high moutain range down the west coast inland a bit .
This would create the conditions to give us rainfall in the interior buy changing our climate.
Ireland has less average rainfall than Australia its how we use & store it thats the problem .
But if we did use the desalination plant in Sydney at least it wouldn't be a total waste of money like it is .

The planets flat, let's leave it that way

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FormulaNova said..
I don't know if I read about this here, or if I saw it on a tv program, but is this the future of farming here?

www.sundropfarms.com/

reneweconomy.com.au/world-first-solar-tower-powered-tomato-farm-opens-port-augusta-41643/

As I understand the concept of concentrated solar failed completely, so the company now decided to grow tomatoes on useless steel construction. Nobody else build concentrated solar anymore since PV cells cannot be beaten on economic grounds.I doubt that growing tomato needs complex structure involving endless grants from Green renewable fundings to survive. They obviously could switch anytime from growing tomato to hemp to increase profits but this still doesn't have anything to do with rational sustainable energy production. In such case those useless mirrors could be used to concentrate more sunlight on every hemp/marihuana plant, so will grow much faster (?)


One may wonder how this financial scam works, how much taxpayer cost because is no way that shipping 15 billion tomatoes to Sydney or Brisbane could be an ever economical feast. Manufactured water also could be bottled and sold as mineral, clean solar water in Coles outlets at the cost more the milk per liter.

It's really very simple. There is more than enough water to feed the nation if we all turned to eating mainly fruits and vegetables. Whole food is totally sustainable ,its healthy and economically sound . Hospitals would not be swamped with sick people who have done it to themselves .
And yes I was one of those people but have made the necessary changes and feeling great at 70.
We don't need to be rescuing graziers who are using valuable resources and in many instances exporting their animals to foreign countries by the boatload.
Stop importing food from overseas countries that we can easily grow here in Australia. We have more than enough land but it's being wasted by graziers who understandably are just in it for the money.
What I don't get is the government help out to these drought stricken people giving them money to sustain an unsustainable business.
Simplistic view I know but there is definitely a better way and it's not farming cattle and sheep.

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rockmagnet said..
It's really very simple. There is more than enough water to feed the nation if we all turned to eating mainly fruits and vegetables.

That is where rational thinking ends.But driving fresh tomatoes 2000km from Port Augusta to Sydney, because nobody could build /( or know how to )a greenhouse on the eastern side is financial madness.

I have always wondered what would happen if we pumped salt water from the coast to somewhere like lake Eyre... Its already salt so no issues with contaminating the ground but would that water then replenish aquifers and/or create a change in climate to induce more natural rain in the area?? More rain, more moisture, more vegetation and then boost the cycle to self sustainability??

Massive cost for sure and no direct payback but would it work??

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Macroscien said..

rockmagnet said..
It's really very simple. There is more than enough water to feed the nation if we all turned to eating mainly fruits and vegetables.

That is where rational thinking ends.But driving fresh tomatoes 2000km from Port Augusta to Sydney, because nobody could build /( or know how to )a greenhouse on the eastern side is financial madness.

There is or was a trend, I don't know if it's still a go whereby supermarkets would source produce locally where possible. So yes. keep it local and as you say learn how to do it, it can't be that hard. You know the old saying in business, change or die.

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Macroscien said..

rockmagnet said..
It's really very simple. There is more than enough water to feed the nation if we all turned to eating mainly fruits and vegetables.

That is where rational thinking ends.But driving fresh tomatoes 2000km from Port Augusta to Sydney, because nobody could build /( or know how to )a greenhouse on the eastern side is financial madness.

Fake meat ...plant based & its cheaper to produce ..

Its already here , sources say farming meat animals will be minimal by the end of the century , Air NZ has introduced meatless patties already much to the farming communities dismay ...
www.traveller.com.au/air-new-zealands-meatless-burger-ruffles-kiwi-feathers-h129n8
www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/06/21/482322571/silicon-valley-s-bloody-plant-burger-smells-tastes-and-sizzles-like-meat
16hr 35mins flying farm to sydney dosn't sound right .

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bazz61 said..

Fake meat ...plant based & its cheaper to produce ..

I agree I may be the only farmer in Australia keeping 50 steer pets, wondering around and enjoying life.

that scorching heat or common drought that caused small Angus to have a bath?

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FormulaNova said..
I don't know if I read about this here, or if I saw it on a tv program, but is this the future of farming here?

www.sundropfarms.com/

reneweconomy.com.au/world-first-solar-tower-powered-tomato-farm-opens-port-augusta-41643/

Reading through this again, it seems crazy that they can produce 15 million Kgs of tomatoes per year, yet they are in an area that is otherwise useless. Heaps of solar energy though and heaps of salt water to turn into fresh water using that solar energy, so it actually seems like a good idea.

I hope the people in Adelaide like tomatoes as 15 million Kgs sounds incredible. I guess you can always process them down into something else locally if that is an issue, but given that Coles have signed up for the tomatoes must mean that they think they can use that quantity cost effectively.

So, maybe the future is pumping salt water inland a bit and then using a similar setup? Producing freshwater from salt and then selling both? I guess the economics of pumping come into it again, so maybe again it is not financial?

It works for high value crops. Not for growing grain and grazing.

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Mr Milk said..
It works for high value crops. Not for growing grain and grazing.

Yeah, I agree. Anything else does not make sense.

This also brings up the argument of whether our traditional farming and grazing could get more efficient easily. If you have rainfall that is light but falls across a large area, I guess that land is capable of of supporting a certain number of cows. The same land probably wouldn't support crops as there may not be enough water for that.

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FormulaNova said..

So, maybe the future is pumping salt water inland a bit and then using a similar setup? Producing freshwater from salt and then selling both? I guess the economics of pumping come into it again, so maybe again it is not financial?

My criticism regards only small technical side of the project, Concentrated Solar.seems to be outdated thinking, no longer economical, Thousand of a drawback if you go into detail: from airplanes, bird killing to many others.If your mirrors are stack by a chance your mirrors are now free to reflect to everything around etc.I saw desert base greenhouse producing veggie from sand, salt water and sun possibly anywhere in Israel.But without solar tower.Maybe SA should ask Israelis experts from the field accustomed with the desert environment, not the Norwegian that most likely use solar melt their ice bergs.But it looks that power tower manic on high decision-making level live in SA as another stupid Aurora solar plant is base on similar nonsense.To be build there 2020.Google initially supported a similar project in US but quickly withdraw when calculations shower that PV solar panel is more cost-effective.

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FormulaNova said..

The same land probably wouldn't support crops as there may not be enough water for that.

The land support also kangurru and rabbits. So alternative to sparse cattle could be kanguru meat and minced rabbits.

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cisco said..
The solutions to all Australia's problems exist,..............except the politician problem, or should I say the electorate problem.

While the electorate keeps swinging Labor, Liberal, Labor, Liberal, Labor, Liberal, nothing of importance will ever be achieved.

The pollies over the years have legislated themselves such a sweet deal that all any of them care about is getting re-elected.

Whichever party becomes government just cancels whatever good the previous government did just on principle because it is them and us.

It is a hopeless situation because the electorate has been dumbed down so much that it does not know what it's vote means.

Call me cynical but that is the way I see it. I have stood at polling booths many times for both Labor and Liberal and watching the voters and their attitudes is a mind blowing experience.

Do we still have Australia or is it just one of the states of Facebook???

voteflux.org/

If I understand it correctly, Flux is the Scientific Method applied to democracy. Anyone can debate and use their votes on the policies they are interested in, while ignoring the ones they aren't interested in. Experts in the field will naturally be more active in policies they understand, and vice versa.

There are no representatives, career politicians, personalities, voting blocs, etc.

There's a short video, and a short whitepaper on the above link. It's interesting at the least. I wouldn't label it "revolutionary", more "really sensible".

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

So, maybe the future is pumping salt water inland a bit and then using a similar setup? Producing freshwater from salt and then selling both? I guess the economics of pumping come into it again, so maybe again it is not financial?

My criticism regards only small technical side of the project, Concentrated Solar.seems to be outdated thinking, no longer economical, Thousand of a drawback if you go into detail: from airplanes, bird killing to many others.If your mirrors are stack by a chance your mirrors are now free to reflect to everything around etc.I saw desert base greenhouse producing veggie from sand, salt water and sun possibly anywhere in Israel.But without solar tower.Maybe SA should ask Israelis experts from the field accustomed with the desert environment, not the Norwegian that most likely use solar melt their ice bergs.But it looks that power tower manic on high decision-making level live in SA as another stupid Aurora solar plant is base on similar nonsense.To be build there 2020.Google initially supported a similar project in US but quickly withdraw when calculations shower that PV solar panel is more cost-effective.

if you read the article, it is a very new installation (2015?) and not a failed attempt at anything else. So, any discussions of other projects are not relevant.

Its funny that for a guy that comes up with all sorts of wacky ideas that you are now criticising an actual build that is actually delivering product on a commercial scale.


Sure, turn up and tell them 'they are doing it wrong' but I think their business seems to be running fine.

Kudos to anyone that can take a novel concept and get it through to a commercial solution.

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FormulaNova said..

if you read the article, it is a very new installation (2015?) and not a failed attempt at anything else.

Will see once tomato shows up in my nearest Coles.At $20 per kg
Concentrated solar! again was good 50 years ago when nobody thought about other means of energy storage.
Now we have Tesla lithium battery in Australia already and a new generation of flow batteries will flood energy market soon.
Besides I look at Port Augusta map and see some hills nearby, So you could pump sea water up the hill and create pumping storage on a massive scale, proven technology.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

if you read the article, it is a very new installation (2015?) and not a failed attempt at anything else.

Will see once tomato shows up in my nearest Coles.At $20 per kg
Concentrated solar! again was good 50 years ago when nobody thought about other means of energy storage.
Now we have Tesla lithium battery in Australia already and a new generation of flow batteries will flood energy market soon.
Besides I look at Port Augusta map and see some hills nearby, So you could pump sea water up the hill and create pumping storage on a massive scale, proven technology.

Nah, if Coles have already signed up to exclusively take their 15 Million Kgs of tomatoes each year, you know they won't be selling them for $20 a kg. Unless of course Coles sells all of its tomatoes for $20 a kg.

Coles or Woolworths don't appear to favour producers when buying goods, so you can bet they think its a good deal.

See, this is where people can over complicate things. Sure photo voltaic is getting cheaper, but in this case you want heat to convert salt water to fresh water. Why convert it to electricity first? even if you could use desalination, is the added complexity worth the minute increase in efficiency?

Again, sometimes what you think are simple ideas may not necessarily be so. In order to pump salt water into a dam for hydro storage, the local producers or farmers or whatever, are not going to be happy about your salt water pushing into the fresh water water-table. So you need to line that dam, which no doubt will increase your costs a lot.

Sometimes its better to put your money where your mouth is. You can come up with all sorts of ideas. Some may be good, some may not be, but to see someone that has actually deployed an idea is far superior to someone saying "I would have done it this way...".

Me personally, I think it would be an awesome idea to have solar powered desalination plants every 10kms, where the heat of the sun evaporates the water, and then condenses it at a higher point, so that you don't need to pump it. You can then use that pressure to pipe it further to the interior. Would it work? NFI. Would it be economical, again, no idea, as without proper costings and feasibility, its just a hare-brained idea.