Depends on a few factors no one can predict but yes, generally less demand for services can lower prices. You're not going to save 20% though because the only thing that would get cut is builder's margin and that's not usually more than 20% of the total cost. You'd be lucky to save 10% max. in a very depressed market.

You might be waiting a while though....

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Adriano said..
Depends on a few factors no one can predict but yes, generally less demand for services can lower prices. You're not going to save 20% though because the only thing that would get cut is builder's margin and that's not usually more than 20% of the total cost. You'd be lucky to save 10% max. in a very depressed market.

You might be waiting a while though....

Would not local suppliers of materials have to be more competitive also if they have a large supply on not much demand?

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vosadrian said..

Adriano said..
Depends on a few factors no one can predict but yes, generally less demand for services can lower prices. You're not going to save 20% though because the only thing that would get cut is builder's margin and that's not usually more than 20% of the total cost. You'd be lucky to save 10% max. in a very depressed market.

You might be waiting a while though....

Would not local suppliers of materials have to be more competitive also if they have a large supply on not much demand?

Not for 1 kitchen!

Do yourself a favour - get a kitchen design fully documented by a designer (don't just get the cheapest designer go for someone with experience ) then get 5 kitchen companies to price it for you. Pay a good price for a detailed design. Don't get talked into the designer doing the build work for you. Any extra you feel you are paying in design costs will be saved 5X in construction doing it this way.

Thats how you get the best result.

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Main said..

... then get 5 kitchen companies to price it for you.

Are you being serious ? I recall a thread I started a while ago about my shower base leakage and the warranty was not honoured by the builder. A tradie here was complaining about the fact that his clients are getting multiple quotes, resulting in him not getting the job.

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Jupiter said..

Main said..

... then get 5 kitchen companies to price it for you.

Are you being serious ? I recall a thread I started a while ago about my shower base leakage and the warranty was not honoured by the builder. A tradie here was complaining about the fact that his clients are getting multiple quotes, resulting in him not getting the job.

Absolutely!
5 requests for quotes will result in about 3 actual quotes which is the minimum you need to see what the job really costs.

Ideally you hope two will be close. In which case you can pick the bloke you prefer of the two.

This is the 80/20 rule. Im sure there's plenty of examples where people have done it differently and ended up with a good job.

Yep.
One usually doesn't respond.
One puts in the "piss off price".
One puts in the "no idea but I'm desperate" price and hopefully two are close and about right.

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Main said..

Absolutely!
5 requests for quotes will result in about 3 actual quotes which is the minimum you need to see what the job really costs.

Ideally you hope two will be close. In which case you can pick the bloke you prefer of the two.

This is the 80/20 rule. Im sure there's plenty of examples where people have done it differently and ended up with a good job.

Well, I don't know if that is possible to even get more than 3. I wanted to get my entire house repainted. One painter promised and set up a time and date to check out the place. He never did turn up. The other one I rang didn't reply to my call and mt text message. The third one I spoke to did grudgingly agree to provide a quote, but complained all the same about the potential loss of his time if he didn't ultimately get the job.

May be the people I got in contact with have had it too good ?

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vosadrian said..

Adriano said..
Depends on a few factors no one can predict but yes, generally less demand for services can lower prices. You're not going to save 20% though because the only thing that would get cut is builder's margin and that's not usually more than 20% of the total cost. You'd be lucky to save 10% max. in a very depressed market.

You might be waiting a while though....

Would not local suppliers of materials have to be more competitive also if they have a large supply on not much demand?

Usually material cost don't come down (unless you are buying in very large quantities). From 1st September reinforcing steel prices would go up by more then15% in matter of just a few months (that is 2 price increases of around 6% and 9% with in few months).

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Jupiter said..

Main said..

Absolutely!
5 requests for quotes will result in about 3 actual quotes which is the minimum you need to see what the job really costs.

Ideally you hope two will be close. In which case you can pick the bloke you prefer of the two.

This is the 80/20 rule. Im sure there's plenty of examples where people have done it differently and ended up with a good job.

Well, I don't know if that is possible to even get more than 3. I wanted to get my entire house repainted. One painter promised and set up a time and date to check out the place. He never did turn up. The other one I rang didn't reply to my call and mt text message. The third one I spoke to did grudgingly agree to provide a quote, but complained all the same about the potential loss of his time if he didn't ultimately get the job.

May be the people I got in contact with have had it too good ?

You're starting to see the picture, Jupiter. The tradies have been getting work on their terms, 'cos of demand ( I guess), quality of work is a non-priority, let alone customer relations. Now things are on the downturn, it doesn't seem to affect them, though I wish it would.
They are an overpaid, seemingly unregulated embarrassment.

A friend who is really smart with money gave me great advice for people wanting to get into housing market, he said

"get a good job that pays good money"

But I said it is just so expensive, and he said

"No. Look, if housing were unaffordable in Sydney, no one would be buying it,"

it makes sense

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evlPanda said..
I have reevaluated.

I do not think the RBA would put us into a recession to keep inflation within it's arguably too tight brackets. At lease I hope they wouldn't.

...not sure which is worse : \

Inflation is actually one way to reduce debt; we could inflate our way out of all the debt we are in.

I know; the genie and the bottle.

Man, they've painted themselves into a corner in a few different rooms.

Not trying to be a doomsday prophet, but if inflation takes off (nominal) rates have to rise in order to keep real rates positive, or at least not negative. Inflation may remain benign for some time yet, but keep in mind that if it will starts it will most likely be imported. Domestic fiscal and monetary policy can only do so much; look at this;





Anyone who has borrowed interest-only (as most investors do) must be mindful that their costs could increase dramatically. From 4% a 1% rate rise is 25% on top of your interest bill. This is a genuine risk and if people are heading for the exits....you know the rest.

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Buster fin said..

You're starting to see the picture, Jupiter. The tradies have been getting work on their terms, 'cos of demand ( I guess), quality of work is a non-priority, let alone customer relations. Now things are on the downturn, it doesn't seem to affect them, though I wish it would.
They are an overpaid, seemingly unregulated embarrassment.

Yes, why they seemed to be immune to the property downturn in WA? I done a bit of thinking about that. Then it hits me. It actually helps them in a bad time for property owners.

Speaking for myself, it gets harder to get new tenants. They demanded lower rents, and even bargain for a lower rate than that advertised. And they got it too. To bring them in past the door, you need good presentation. And that is why I have spent so much money lately just to tart up the bloody place ! Painting, windows, blinds, kitchen, the damn lot. So tradies are actually doing better in time of a property downturn.

Talking about rents, I reckon the constant complains about bad landlords and tenants are copping a raw deal is very false. Being managed by agents, maintenance is done as soon as needed. So what seems to be the problem there? Then I believe the government also like the idea being on the side of tenants.

When WA was in a boom, people queued up, all 10 of them, wanting to get a place to rent. Some even offered to pay over and above what I advertised for. Legally I am not allowed to accept bids from potential tenants. So I missed out on extras. Now, why is it legal for tenants to bargain for a lower than advertised rate ?

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TonyAbbott said..
A friend who is really smart with money gave me great advice for people wanting to get into housing market, he said

"get a good job that pays good money"

But I said it is just so expensive, and he said

"No. Look, if housing were unaffordable in Sydney, no one would be buying it,"

it makes sense

You are sounding more and more like the real deal

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TonyAbbott said..
A friend who is really smart with money gave me great advice for people wanting to get into housing market, he said

"get a good job that pays good money"

But I said it is just so expensive, and he said

"No. Look, if housing were unaffordable in Sydney, no one would be buying it,"

it makes sense

I remember your mate.

Joe "poor people don't drive cars" Hockey!
Didn't they ship him off to the US where it seems you can put your foot in your mouth as much as you want

Read the ABC news this morning about the property prices in Sydney and Melbourne. An insider reckons properties there are at least 30% overpriced. So a $1,000,000 one should be around $700,000. He reckons a correction, when it comes, will not be as savage as a 30% drop, but more like a 10%. I suppose that is to do with the government which will do its best not for such a dramatic and drastic drop to occur. He reckons Perth property prices ares about right.

NAB and ANZ bank now predicted that next year there will be two rate rises ! Not going to be pretty if that eventuate.

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stoff said..

I remember your mate.

Joe "poor people don't drive cars" Hockey!
Didn't they ship him off to the US where it seems you can put your foot in your mouth as much as you want

He is taking the piss

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Jupiter said..
Read the ABC news this morning about the property prices in Sydney and Melbourne. An insider reckons properties there are at least 30% overpriced. So a $1,000,000 one should be around $700,000. He reckons a correction, when it comes, will not be as savage as a 30% drop, but more like a 10%. I suppose that is to do with the government which will do its best not for such a dramatic and drastic drop to occur. He reckons Perth property prices ares about right.

NAB and ANZ bank now predicted that next year there will be two rate rises ! Not going to be pretty if that eventuate.

bet he wasn't a real estate agent..

seriously - know one knows..!

Buster fin .
Why do you think tradies are over paid ?
They are all running a business have all those expenses especially insurances plus etc they have to invest in tools truck still pay accountant etc
I know in my case my truck &tools cost more than a degree and they constantly need replacing .
Its a fact that some people cant get there head around I know especially ones who only have to turn up to work &everthing is supplied .
And why shouldnt tradies get a fair pay they risk there lives every day.
Do you think I should undervalue myself just because in Australia we have bigotry to people with tradies?
And its funny because people with your attitude come across & tradies pick up on that so because we know you will stuff us around we charge you more .
I think maybe you should reevaluate your attitude &maybe the way your treating your tradies &then see how your quotes go.
Same for you Jupiter .
You have even spelled it out you get quotes & some factor in your stuffing them around .&you run the gauntlet of quotes the bloke who can do the job but charges more for whingers because they are flat out or the bloke who is desperate &probably cant do the job

I mean if I made an up account turn up at my place &dumped a box of papers on the table &said go through that for the next two hrs while i make my mind up on what i want &now see you later ive got another account coming to give me another quote would that be fair?
Its exactly the same thing .
People & quotes .
I dont do it anymore to much time wasted.
Ive got salesman who do that my time is to valuable .
Im a tradie .

I can only go from experience, and those experiences are woeful. The work has been shoddy. The timing suits only them to the detriment of the project. The agreements have usually been ill-met, but they want full payment regardless.
I consider that over-paid.

I've even had to repair work once the tradies have left.

I'm pissed off again now that you've made me remember it!

Ways to ensure a bad job from a tradie -

- no design or specification
- poor design
- verbal brief as opposed to written
- verbal agreement as opposed to written - time, quality and price expectation.
- picking the cheapest quote if there are higher ones all around the same number

I reckon about 90% of the problems are actually the fault of or stem from the client - not the tradie

Totally agree main .
Its why I use salesman.
Written contract.
Plus I dont get my time wasted by people who just want free building advice .
The last quote I did I had customer ask every question about how its built drew up plans &then they said right well lets go there &buy the materials with your account &get discount &then I will build it myself .
I just got in truck &drove off without another word &thought never again .
It used to be for every 10 quotes you would get 8 jobs now its probably 2 & that requires multiple vists till they make up there mind
If you are quoting your own work you spend more time doing quotes than working .
Its cheaper to pay somebody to do that &let you concentrate on doing the work .

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stoff said..
One of my good mates currently manages a large manufacturing building supplies company in WA. With the downturn his company has been losing money for a while but they love him because he's made the tough calls that have stopped them losing even more.

He's just accepted a large pay rise and is moving to Sydney in a couple of weeks to run the NSW division...

wasnt brickworks was it?
from the annual results today justifying the various closures of plant in WA (and job losses) -

"according to Brickworks, expensive domestic freight rates means it costs twice as much to ship bricks and tiles from Perth to Sydney as it does to import them from Spain."

Funny country we have created...

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Main said..

I reckon about 90% of the problems are actually the fault of or stem from the client - not the tradie

Pffffttt... shoddy work is the fault of the client? Interesting point of view... and a point of view I can guess is shared by many WA tradies.

I've had mixed experience and generally I agree workmanship in WA is pretty poor... often I can do better myself - with no training, just patience.

And what is it with tradies and rubbish? The "site" (us client's tend to call that our home) is left untidy, nothing is made good and is it possible there is any other place you could find to hide a coffee milk container???? Surely it would be faster to put it in a bin then poke it amongst rocks... garden... part bury it... etc... etc...

My advice - find a plumber you can trust (virtually impossible), a sparky you can trust (a fair bit easier) and start from there... my sparky is awesome...

My favourite thing from tradies: sucks air through teeth and says "it's a lot of labour"... instant loss of job...

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actiomax said..
Buster fin .
Why do you think tradies are over paid ?
They are all running a business have all those expenses especially insurances plus etc they have to invest in tools truck still pay accountant etc
I know in my case my truck &tools cost more than a degree and they constantly need replacing .
Its a fact that some people cant get there head around I know especially ones who only have to turn up to work &everthing is supplied .
And why shouldnt tradies get a fair pay they risk there lives every day.
Do you think I should undervalue myself just because in Australia we have bigotry to people with tradies?
And its funny because people with your attitude come across & tradies pick up on that so because we know you will stuff us around we charge you more .
I think maybe you should reevaluate your attitude &maybe the way your treating your tradies &then see how your quotes go.
Same for you Jupiter .
You have even spelled it out you get quotes & some factor in your stuffing them around .&you run the gauntlet of quotes the bloke who can do the job but charges more for whingers because they are flat out or the bloke who is desperate &probably cant do the job

I mean if I made an up account turn up at my place &dumped a box of papers on the table &said go through that for the next two hrs while i make my mind up on what i want &now see you later ive got another account coming to give me another quote would that be fair?
Its exactly the same thing .
People & quotes .
I dont do it anymore to much time wasted.
Ive got salesman who do that my time is to valuable .
Im a tradie .

Wowooo, hold off there ActionMan. So you think only tradies's business does cost a lot to run? How about other businesses that used tradies? Are they doing it easy? One sided and one eyed. Even to the point of being self-grandiose. So you reckon you are a protected species which is "entitled" to charge to the max because "...those expenses especially insurances plus etc they have to invest in tools truck still pay accountant etc " The last I check, I have the same problems just like you do. Stop being a drama queen for a minute, and try to think there are people other than tradies who are facing the real world. Judging by your self-grandiose assertions, you probably still believe tradies are very special.

You had a go at Buster Fin, then I copped one too. And how the f did you know that I stuffed tradies around? I didn't because ALL my work were conducted via my real estate agents. They dealt with them, and I don't. Got that? I got a quote. If I am lucky, I get two if a tradie felt he was up to it. I then picked one that is "fair price for a fair work done". I hope that principle does apply to you? May be not ?

So it is time wasted to do quotes, and your time is valuable. OK. I suppose you think my time as a person chasing quotes are not as important then?

Your last proclamation is quite funny and almost ridiculous. Im a tradie . OK. I am NOT a tradie. I am a PROFESSIONAL in software engineering. See that keyword? Professional. A professional needs to live up to his claim, and not just making empty assertion. As they said: Words are cheeeep !

So come off your high horse and be a professional ! And please remember this...We are all here to make ends meet. No one is any more important than any others.

Are you stupid. ?
Of course I understand the cost of running a business I'm running one .
The simple fact is 98%of customers are not &they dont understand the costs involved .
Im professional at what I do so what if I have pride in myself as a tradie &my work & we have to be just as competitive as any other business.
All my work comes with warranty just like the products that I use
My time is valuable its why I use a salesman .
He gets a job out of it for a start.
Got a problem with tradies employing people or do you think somehow were not good enough to do that .
Do you make them use the servants entrance also .
Get off your high horse .
If you got a problem with the tradies &real estate gets them for you change real estate agent. Ffs its so simple.
No the proffesional would rather bag out tradies than actually deal with the coarse of the problem .

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actiomax said..
Are you stupid. ?
Of course I understand the cost of running a business I'm running one .
The simple fact is 98%of customers are not &they dont understand the costs involved .
Im professional at what I do so what if I have pride in myself as a tradie &my work & we have to be just as competitive as any other business.
All my work comes with warranty just like the products that I use
My time is valuable its why I use a salesman .
He gets a job out of it for a start.
Got a problem with tradies employing people or do you think somehow were not good enough to do that .
Do you make them use the servants entrance also .
Get off your high horse .
If you got a problem with the tradies &real estate gets them for you change real estate agent. Ffs its so simple.
No the proffesional would rather bag out tradies than actually deal with the coarse of the problem .

Definitely stupid enough to allow some tradies to run rings around me.

If you do understand the costs f running a business, then why in the bloody hell you carried on about as if you and tradies alone have costs burdens? If some tradies did their job properly, and charged fairly, then many businesses will not have to deal with exuberant maintenance costs, innit ?

So you are a professional, good work. But "professional" is not just a badge you lump around, you do need to demonstrate you can live up to that expectation. The cases I listed where one didn't turn up as promised and organized, and the other didn't even bother to reply. Now that is professional standard, perhaps you guys do have a very loose interpretation of such. And then you carried on and accused me of stuffing them around. How could I be if I haven't even got to get them to provide a quote, let alone starting work. You are on shaky ground there trying vainly to defend someone whom you have no clue what the real situation was.

So your time is valuable. Yes, everyone's time is valuable. You drive out to a job is valuable. You begin charging as soon as you turn your ignition on at your driveway. I don't charge my client until I arrived on site and seeing them face to face.

In my last full-time employment, we were trying to bid for a large contract. Nearly a quarter of the staff was allocated just to prepare the bid. It was a full three months solid day plus night challenge to prepare it. And guess what? We lost to a lower bid. And can you imagine how much it cost us just to prepare the bid? What about the current submarine contracts to the French. A "Competitive Evaluation Process", a wanky term for quotation, meant many nations had a go to win. And all but one won. And should those other losers be whinging and carrying on because they didn't get it? Or if they behave like you and your mates, stop bidding, or get a salesman to do the bidding?

Not bagging tradies. I use the all the time. There are good one and some rather ordinary. Not all are qualified or fit to be called a professional. So please stop getting so touchy as there are definitely bad apples, or those who prefer "low hanging fruits" I hope you are not one of them.

I dont advertise .
Im booked out till next march already.
Ive had many customers get me back repeatedly to do new jobs .
Word of mouth drives my business.
I got salesman so he is there on time to give quotes.
And I've got to be competitive as people get multiple quotes .
If you have had bad experiences I'm sorry for you &I agree there are some shocking tradies out there.
But some of us take pride in what we do .
Maybe you got to find the one's who do .
I dont charge from when I leave .
Ive got a contract to build whatever for whatever.
You must be confusing tradesmen with handy man.
And its part of quoting you win some you lose some .
And you odviously missed the part 98% of customers dont run there own business so they have no idea of costs .

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actiomax said..
I dont advertise .
Im booked out till next march already.
Ive had many customers get me back repeatedly to do new jobs .
Word of mouth drives my business.
I got salesman so he is there on time to give quotes.
And I've got to be competitive as people get multiple quotes .
If you have had bad experiences I'm sorry for you &I agree there are some shocking tradies out there.
But some of us take pride in what we do .
Maybe you got to find the one's who do .
I dont charge from when I leave .
Ive got a contract to build whatever for whatever.
You must be confusing tradesmen with handy man.
And its part of quoting you win some you lose some .
And you odviously missed the part 98% of customers dont run there own business so they have no idea of costs .

I don't know what your trade is, but I'll get you to do my next job.

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actiomax said..
I dont advertise .
Im booked out till next march already.
Ive had many customers get me back repeatedly to do new jobs .
Word of mouth drives my business.
I got salesman so he is there on time to give quotes.
And I've got to be competitive as people get multiple quotes .
If you have had bad experiences I'm sorry for you &I agree there are some shocking tradies out there.
But some of us take pride in what we do .
Maybe you got to find the one's who do .
I dont charge from when I leave .
Ive got a contract to build whatever for whatever.
You must be confusing tradesmen with handy man.
And its part of quoting you win some you lose some .
And you odviously missed the part 98% of customers dont run there own business so they have no idea of costs .

I think that's a great idea. I think some people grow a business and have a good way of dealing with people, so they do the sales and the work. Other people may not be as good with people, or prefer to do the work, so using a sales person is a great idea.

I hope that is working for you, as it should. The customer should feel confident, and you don't have to worry about wasting your time doing quotes if you don't want.

Sometimes people can be excellent trades people but no good at running a team, or no good at selling their services.