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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Private school fees and tax?

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Created by flanagaj > 9 months ago, 12 Feb 2015
cammd
QLD, 4331 posts
23 Feb 2015 3:11PM
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thedrip said..

And we are telling you how funding is distributed in Australia and the consequences of said funding. You then earlier said "Show me." Well do we need to go get the report and quote it?


I thought that was common practice when putting forward an argument in written form. Maybe that is not taught in English class anymore, I guess personal insults are used in place of referenced sources these days. Another sign of my obtuse ignorance I guess.

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Cal said..
The main point for me is that it is totally unclear how much financial support non government schools receive and possibly worse is the lack of accountability for the associated spending of this public money.


Clearly your unclear


Cal
QLD, 1003 posts
23 Feb 2015 3:40PM
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cammd said...



Clearly your unclear





No cammd, Im clear: my understanding is that, all totalled per student the private sector recieves more funding than the public (including subsidies, tax concessions and so on). This is my understanding and may well be wrong hence Im not arguing that point. What I have put forward to you is that your asertations of subsidising the public purse are at very least unsubstantiated. The most recent definative and unpollitical report is Gonski and its major findings point towards an inbalance in funding, unclear funding paths, duplication of funding and a lack of transparency and accountability of funding expenditure. Note I have argued for funding of non government schooling, just in a more equitable way.

cammd
QLD, 4331 posts
23 Feb 2015 3:58PM
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That's a reasonable point of view and due to the complexity the real numbers may always be a source of contention, my main point was in regard to generalisation's about elitism, and I do acknowledge that you never made any such generalisation's.

Paradox
QLD, 1326 posts
23 Feb 2015 4:57PM
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Cal said..
No cammd, Im clear: my understanding is that, all totalled per student the private sector recieves more funding than the public (including subsidies, tax concessions and so on). This is my understanding and may well be wrong hence Im not arguing that point.


Just on this....with the data I have and may well be incomplete....

As a really crude back of envelope calc...from the Gonski Report (2010 figures) non Gov schools spent around $15bill a year, of which approx $7bill comes from Government. If it takes another $4bill to take that $7bill to public school standard (around $11bill to educate current private kids publically), that is in round figures more than 8 $billion a year at max tax rate (50%) that the old boys would have to be donating each year for the private toffs to be just getting the same funding as public schools.....This is on top of fees of course...$8billion...a year...that's a hell of a lot of Philanthropic dollars...

So, sorry while I agree it should be taken into account, and publicly reported - it certainly does not lend anything to an argument that overall Private School kids are getting a better deal from Gov. The funding gap is just too wide to add up no matter how I look at it or what grants, tax deductions or exemptions are in place.... Again I guess there are some specific examples where this does not hold true, but not overall...

I highlight the above because a significant amount of people in this thread have commented with the firm view that Private Schools cost the community more $per head than Public School. I can't see this, and in fact they seem to receive significantly less Gov money than their Public counterparts, no matter what the source - funnily enough my view before this exercise was that funding per head was similar.

I would question why Catholic Schools get about 20% more than other private schools though?? Are Catholic kids especially challenged?

cammd
QLD, 4331 posts
23 Feb 2015 5:10PM
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I am just guessing the fees at most Catholic schools are much less the other independent schools, I read somewhere sometime ago that overall Catholic Education operates on less money per student the Government schools. If correct it makes one question if more funding is the simple cure all to a better quality education. Again I don't have numbers on hand but I wouldn't mind betting other countries achieve better academic results with less money.

Paradox
QLD, 1326 posts
23 Feb 2015 5:29PM
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cammd said..
I am just guessing the fees at most Catholic schools are much less the other independent schools, I read somewhere sometime ago that overall Catholic Education operates on less money per student the Government schools. If correct it makes one question if more funding is the simple cure all to a better quality education. Again I don't have numbers on hand but I wouldn't mind betting other countries achieve better academic results with less money.



You are correct, according to Gonski total spend per head in Catholic Schools is on par with public Schools, if not slightly below. Other independent Schools are about 30% or so up on that on average.

The figures quote net income though, so it is unclear if operational losses or other deductions/assistance is provided by the Church.

Cal
QLD, 1003 posts
23 Feb 2015 6:32PM
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Paradox, I once believed something along the lines of your back of the envelope calculations however no longer do. For starters you omit tax exemptions on every financial transaction. As Ive stated, Im not interested in an argument as to how much each costs, I am keen however to counter false comments such as the non government sector is necessary as the public couldnt cope. Simple fact is the government sector would be bigger if the non government didnt exist, bigger in numbers and bigger in dollars.

Paradox
QLD, 1326 posts
24 Feb 2015 9:52AM
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Cal, I hear what you are saying, although even with full tax exemptions on everything (no idea if they get that or not), I still can't see the gap being caught up let alone exceeded. And if this is the case every private kid who goes to public will cost the taxpayer more. It would cope, but just be more costly overall.

However, I don't believe the ill's with the public system have anything to do with the Private Schools, and from what I have read, apart from fixing some allocation issues Gonski believed this too. It is about funding (need more), and it is about focussing those extra funds on kids who need it the most...almost all of these are in the public system and that is where the effort and money needs to go.

Interestingly Gonski highlighted a problem where special needs/disabled kids in the Private System were far behind those in the public system with regard to Government assistance, and he recommended this be fixed too.

bakesy
WA, 682 posts
24 Feb 2015 8:41AM
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Special needs funding is one area that both Federal and State Government budget allocations are well below par. In the sector I work in it is very difficult to get fully funded assistance without going through a very detailed process. The basic need is assistance in the classroom through qualified TA's, there are plenty out there but finding the money to employ them is the problem. The criteria for this is based on the level or type of learning impairment, with many of the most common not attracting funding. As a result the classroom teacher is left to pick up the slack and do the best we can for these students. The real funding issue lies in this area and it is one that Gonski identified and I truly hope that it is addressed sooner rather than later. On the main topic of this thread the basic model is that Catholic Education is 80% funded by Federal and State with State Education 100% funded by our tax dollars. Fees are used to cover educational budgets, maintenance and building with the funding covering the wages bill. State schools must use their slice of the pie to cover pretty much everything. The one difference was when Kevin Rudd distributed 49billion to all sectors based on a rather simple first in best dressed policy, my school got around 3mil which we used to upgrade our library and purchase around 300 Macbooks. One other interesting fact is that almost all Catholic schools have a building levy embedded in the fees we pay plus major fundraising from the P&F to supply things like airconditioning. Our P&F raises over 100k each year through the amazing efforts of our community and I can't see why all schools don't do this to some degree. The main thought amongst educators is that more funding is needed but Health professionals will tell you this as well!



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Private school fees and tax?" started by flanagaj