In the press this morning. Seems most of the forecast price falls are due largely to cheaper power coming on line from renewables.

I thought the naysayers said renewables and coal power station closures would drive prices up?

I note that in WA which is heavily reliant on gas power plants, the price is set to increase due to rising gas prices....

Now imagine if we got a nuclear power industry off the ground? Being more expensive than gas and renewables where would that send prices?

https://www.aer.gov.au/publications/state-of-the-energy-market-reports/state-of-the-energy-market---data-update-november-2019

It's all relative. Prices might fall, but from what level? If prices go up by 300%, and then go down by 10%, should we be that excited about the apparent 'drop' in price?

My power bill has already fallen. Dec 2018 bill was $77.98. Dec 2019 is $33.05.
That's due to renewables. The input tariff for my SolarPV went from 15c to 21c

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Harrow said..
It's all relative. Prices might fall, but from what level? If prices go up by 300%, and then go down by 10%, should we be that excited about the apparent 'drop' in price?

It's supposed to be a catastrophe if house prices fall a little after doubling in a few years, so the answer is YEEESSSS

And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise. Mind you, they also said the economy is doing well too, lol.
I guess it depends where you want to source your news.

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pepe47 said..
And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise.

any sense in paying for the same real estate more and more? Can we not invest hard earn money in something more useful then profits by financial companies ?

Energy is too cheap. The whole modern lifestyle is what it is purely because of our ready access to energy. We should value it and pay for what it's worth. The average household income is about $ 2,300 a month yet we pay less than $2,000 pa to power the whole lot of it.

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Macroscien said..

pepe47 said..
And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise.

any sense in paying for the same real estate more and more? Can we not invest hard earn money in something more useful then profits by financial companies ?

You are not a property "investor" then? Heaps of people must be, and in a weird way I think some people, probably the younger buyers, are finding that they need negative gearing in order to afford the properties that negative gearing has increased the prices on...

It is indeed a huge waste of investment capital, but I guess the masses are happy when the house prices are going up and they feel rich. The house I am staying in at the moment sold for $350K back in 2007 and is now valued at $200K!

Not everyone is happy!

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Ian K said..Energy is too cheap. The whole modern lifestyle is what it is purely because of our ready access to energy. We should value it and pay for what it's worth. The average household income is about $ 2,300 a month yet we pay less than $2,000 pa to power the whole lot of it.

Agreed, yet elections have been won and lost over this ridiculous hip pocket issue.

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Macroscien said..

pepe47 said..
And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise.

any sense in paying for the same real estate more and more? Can we not invest hard earn money in something more useful then profits by financial companies ?

I guess that leaves out banks then..

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Mr Milk said..
My power bill has already fallen. Dec 2018 bill was $77.98. Dec 2019 is $33.05.
That's due to renewables. The input tariff for my SolarPV went from 15c to 21c

Okay, 21c input tariff is starting to sound like an economic proposition. Is that a generally available offer? Which retailer?

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FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..

pepe47 said..
And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise.

any sense in paying for the same real estate more and more? Can we not invest hard earn money in something more useful then profits by financial companies ?

You are not a property "investor" then? Heaps of people must be, and in a weird way I think some people, probably the younger buyers, are finding that they need negative gearing in order to afford the properties that negative gearing has increased the prices on...

It is indeed a huge waste of investment capital, but I guess the masses are happy when the house prices are going up and they feel rich. The house I am staying in at the moment sold for $350K back in 2007 and is now valued at $200K!

Not everyone is happy!

What the hell you live in ( or under) !?
the bridge?

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Ian K said..
Energy is too cheap. The whole modern lifestyle is what it is purely because of our ready access to energy. We should value it and pay for what it's worth. The average household income is about $ 2,300 a month yet we pay less than $2,000 pa to power the whole lot of it.

Now some of my friends did install solar panels. Sort of 6.6KW at $3000 investment. The bill now is positive every month.
On my farm, I am off the grid, so not much trouble at all.But one annoying like hell is: Off the grid inverters 24V, Chinese knock off rated 1500W can not switch on today 330W aircon!!!Need more advice on what sort of inverter of the grid will work as those numbers on Chinese s*** means nothing. I do understand that for all those devices turned IN there is some initial shock, but instead of limiting max current those cheapy inverters just instantly TURN OFF. Now I am doing some research on what could be the entry-level off-grid inverter that really works with devices like washing machines, pumps, air const up to 1500-2ooo Watt 24 V . Now I am on 2000w rated 24 V Inverter but consumption is only 120W. Try to switch something bigger then 500W and inverter turn off/The battery bank if big enough btw.

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Harrow said..

Mr Milk said..
My power bill has already fallen. Dec 2018 bill was $77.98. Dec 2019 is $33.05.
That's due to renewables. The input tariff for my SolarPV went from 15c to 21c

Okay, 21c input tariff is starting to sound like an economic proposition. Is that a generally available offer? Which retailer?

Origin. About 28c to buy, 21c to sell. From my POV I'm paying about $1/day to connect, 7c/kWh to store my energy and they pay me 21c for the excess.

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Macroscien said..

Ian K said..
Energy is too cheap. The whole modern lifestyle is what it is purely because of our ready access to energy. We should value it and pay for what it's worth. The average household income is about $ 2,300 a month yet we pay less than $2,000 pa to power the whole lot of it.

Now some of my friends did install solar panels. Sort of 6.6KW at $3000 investment. The bill now is positive every month.
On my farm, I am off the grid, so not much trouble at all.But one annoying like hell is: Off the grid inverters 24V, Chinese knock off rated 1500W can not switch on today 330W aircon!!!Need more advice on what sort of inverter of the grid will work as those numbers on Chinese s*** means nothing. I do understand that for all those devices turned IN there is some initial shock, but instead of limiting max current those cheapy inverters just instantly TURN OFF. Now I am doing some research on what could be the entry-level off-grid inverter that really works with devices like washing machines, pumps, air const up to 1500-2ooo Watt 24 V . Now I am on 2000w rated 24 V Inverter but consumption is only 120W. Try to switch something bigger then 500W and inverter turn off/The battery bank if big enough btw.

Did you do any research on inverters first? The start up surge of fridges, washing machines, and microwaves tend to sort the good ones from the bad, and seriously, a 1500W is nothing. Are you sure that aircon is 330W? I am guessing not continuous and averaged out in some way.

A lot of people in RVs and caravans spend up big on inverters, so you might find hints about what to buy if you can find a website for those sorts of people.

Its a worry when you look at the DC current demands on these things when you get up to high power, and then you start to worry about the cabling and distance from the batteries.

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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..

Macroscien said..

pepe47 said..
And yet sky news reports housing prices are going to rise.

any sense in paying for the same real estate more and more? Can we not invest hard earn money in something more useful then profits by financial companies ?

You are not a property "investor" then? Heaps of people must be, and in a weird way I think some people, probably the younger buyers, are finding that they need negative gearing in order to afford the properties that negative gearing has increased the prices on...

It is indeed a huge waste of investment capital, but I guess the masses are happy when the house prices are going up and they feel rich. The house I am staying in at the moment sold for $350K back in 2007 and is now valued at $200K!

Not everyone is happy!

What the hell you live in ( or under) !?
the bridge?

I don't understand your comment. If you are asking about the place I mentioned, its a house in a suburb in Perth, and bought in the mining boom when everyone thought everything was going up. In reality its a crappy suburb that was overvalued.

Lots of people seem to want to keep investment in unproductive housing investment, hence the recent election result. A lot of people appear to not want it to give it up. I think its a waste, but we have been sucked into thinking we can all get rich this way.

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FormulaNova said..

Did you do any research on inverters first? The start up surge of fridges, washing machines, and microwaves tend to sort the good ones from the bad, and seriously, a 1500W is nothing. Are you sure that aircon is 330W? I am guessing not continuous and averaged out in some way

Yes, I did find the least power consuming Aircon on eBay.
Tested today it requires only 300W, window-like box, 10 kg. But I use it to pump cold air into very small compartment to create a very comfortable small space/workplace.
I think that is the future when you don't need to cool the whole home or office, but your workplace.My GC home ducted 3 ph air con is rated 24+Kw but what we need indeed is only this mere 300w to keep us perfectly comfortable, I found.So my next project is exactly to comfy space inside my outback/farmhouse to pump cooled air.
My next project is to make this portable. So I could walk outside with small backpack pumping constantly cooled air into the mine personal clothes ( sort of astronaut suit) but with a backpack and personal air-con.

I am considering now everything portable from 1 ) fan+mising vaporating 2) CO2 bricks 3) heat the pump
for this personal suit of the future.

I don't have a power bill, they pay me

Recycled, re used solar panels and inverter zero cost to me, surprised every one isnt onto it but renewable phobia is indoctrinated in this country

How good is that for a fella from the shire

Prices wont be reducing in WA if we sell off Western Power.

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Buster fin said..
Prices wont be reducing in WA if we sell off Western Power.

Keep building those gas power plants and they definitely won't reduce.

WA has a 15%domestic gas supply guarantee whilst every other state does not.

If we are unlucky we will see them plummet like they promised when they privatized.

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Foghorn said..
WA has a 15% domestic gas supply guarantee whilst every other state does not.

Yet gas power is why the electricity prices in WA aren't tipped to drop like the east, where renewables like hydro, wind and large scale solar are taking up the slack.

You should be making plans to produce your own hydrogen fuel batteries /cells over there with all that sun and wind.

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japie said..
If we are unlucky we will see them plummet like they promised when they privatized.

Yeah, that was the call wasn't it... it always seems to be the argument. but never the reality. I am sure if asked on this they will tell you it would have been worse if they hadn't been privatised.

Not in WA. They won't

Or anywhere else for that matter

I call BS

Last I read,

www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/rise-of-rooftop-solar-power-jeopardising-wa-energy-grid/11731452

WA has too much Solar power, in the SW grid at least.

The fact for the moment is that without the baseload power stations, you can forget about your job and current lifestyle.

Sure, it will be lovely to not rely on fossil fuels at all, but in the mean time reality is a bitch.

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kk said..
Last I read,

www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/rise-of-rooftop-solar-power-jeopardising-wa-energy-grid/11731452

WA has too much Solar power, in the SW grid at least.

The fact for the moment is that without the baseload power stations, you can forget about your job and current lifestyle.

Sure, it will be lovely to not rely on fossil fuels at all, but in the mean time reality is a bitch.

Yeah, so get off your arses and manage your infrastructure better!

There's nothing inherently wrong with solar panels. The issue appears to be, how your managing the grid.

Sooner or later the whole energy market will be stabilized by Electric Vehicles and its batteries.Firstly the amount of EV charging at home ( for a longer time than rapid charging station) - could provide a load for the grid - when energy is abundant and cheap.The smart grid will assure that your car turns in loading when there is a peak in energy production. So you pay for example 20 c per KW.But when energy is expensive, your car could sell power to the grid at 30 cents earning you money and stabilizing the grid.Let us do some math.
10,000,000 EV x 100Kwh each = a lot of storage.So advice for EV manufacturers must be such. Vehicle electric installation must be able to work both ways- Charge battery or works as a grid-tied inverter.

The electricity market is confusing as f. Partially conflicting articles below.

www.afr.com/companies/energy/fresh-power-bill-shock-on-the-way-for-victorians-20191213-p53jpz

www.dailymail.co.uk/money/bills/article-7772787/Cheaper-bills-coming-Energy-wholesale-prices-lowest-decade.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

Plus an except:
'The report points out subsidies like the 20 per cent renewable energy target winding down as reasons for this decrease in green scheme costs.'

So can anyone tell me how much is the wholesale cost of wind energy vs coal?

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holy guacamole said..

Foghorn said..
WA has a 15% domestic gas supply guarantee whilst every other state does not.

Yet gas power is why the electricity prices in WA aren't tipped to drop like the east, where renewables like hydro, wind and large scale solar are taking up the slack.

You should be making plans to produce your own hydrogen fuel batteries /cells over there with all that sun and wind.

They started a trial project in Jandakot last year to convert excess solar to hydrogen last year .Hydrogen to be fed into the gas network.

Hydrogen is super expensive and energy consuming to create, wouldn't it be more effective just to put the solar directly into the grid?