Pedestrians and jay walking.

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Created by

ka43 > 9 months ago, 24 Aug 2014

ka43

NSW

3097 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:04pm

Off for a SUP today, 14' board on roof. Saw a middle aged woman with small dog on lead stop at kerb, look both ways and as I neared her she stepped straight off and walked at a diagonal across road. We were 20 meters from an intersection with a crossing.
Obviously I slowed down and gave a quick beep on horn.
No reaction, another louder longer beep as I thought she might be hard of hearing. She looked over her shoulder, saw me and proceeded to wander down the MIDDLE of the lane. I hit the horn full blast, nothing. She reluctantly moved over enough so I could get by. I lowered window and shouted at her that if I hadve been going the speed limit I could've hit her.
Her reply, I kid you not. "Im in the right, you have to stop".
She wandered off up the road oblivious. A guy walking on the footpath looked at me, shrugged his shoulders and shook his head.
Is this what pedestrians are like these days or is it a indication of what society has become??

kk

953 posts

24 Aug 2014 5:56pm

Nah, it was the 14' SUP that set all of that off

jn1

2683 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:43pm

ka43, you need three of these puppies fitted to your front grill

139dBA

FormulaNova

15090 posts

24 Aug 2014 6:35pm

Nah, that's society today for some. She was in the right. She could have been dead, but she was still in the right.

I am sure there are parents teaching their children this same old crap of not backing down and using their 'rights'.

I have to admit that in the past where I have crossed the road (not near a crossing) and someone in a car has gunned it, to show me they are king, I have sometimes slowed down to annoy them. It could be the last thing I do if I pick the wrong person

I wonder about the crossing diagonally thing. I see this a lot, and especially with old people for some reason. I think they think 'its the shortest path' not realising its the shortest path for them but exposes them to traffic for longer. There also seems to be this thing of running up to a crossing, then walking across. Come on. You ran up to it, why do you suddenly want to walk.

Another one of my pet peeves was where in the CBD people would keep walking across the crossing against the lights, well after they went red for them. They are still in the right, but it is a very inconsiderate thing to do when the time to make it through some of these lights in the city is pretty short.

saltiest1

NSW

2562 posts

24 Aug 2014 8:43pm

pisses me off no end.
every day i miss people with the same attitude and I'm dreading the day i don't see them.
had a very close call a few months ago when a young girl of 10 or so did it to me and i didn't see her. thought id hit her as i went passed and she went out of view so i pulled over to check and she ran off. thankfully. similar age to my daughter.
but she was in the right.

saltiest1

NSW

2562 posts

24 Aug 2014 8:46pm

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FormulaNova said..

There also seems to be this thing of running up to a crossing, then walking across. Come on. You ran up to it, why do you suddenly want to walk.

i had a cop, plain clothed, do that to me but stopped at the crossing, pointed at me, then gave me a fine for not stopping.

unclethirsty

385 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:11pm

There was an old cartoon from Disney I remember watching as a young bloke it had the Goofy character in it & he was "Mr Driver, while driving & Mr Walker as a pedestrian" see if you can find it and have a look. Its gotta be made in the 50's but things havn't changed. when you drive you act a certain way & when you're on foot yo do as well . S**t i found it, have a giggle ."

Ian K

4164 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:11pm

We've only been running around in cars for 60 yrs or so and have yet to develop an appropriate culture with regard to pedestrians. You're king in your car, as soon as you step out you're low life. Technically the road rules require vehicles turning at uncontrolled intersections to give way to pedestrians. Try doing that, see how you go! Try smiling at the pedestrian waiting to cross in example 9 and wave him across. From page 72 of the Australian road rules, similar for turning left.

Harrow

NSW

4521 posts

24 Aug 2014 9:16pm

I have lost count of how many people I have seen hit by cars in the Sydney CBD. At least once a week I see someone walk into 6 lanes of moving traffic on George St without looking at all.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:25pm

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Harrow said..
I have lost count of how many people I have seen hit by cars in the Sydney CBD. At least once a week I see someone walk into 6 lanes of moving traffic on George St without looking at all.

The city can be crazy sometimes. I have seen people walk through the malls looking at something on their phone, assuming everyone else will get out of their way. I worry that these same people cross with everyone else and do the same, and all it takes is one inattentive driver...

I used to work in a building on Pitt street and every now and then you would hear the ambulances and see the crowds as someone has been hit.

Ian K

4164 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:29pm

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Why does anybody really need to drive a car down George Street? Where are they going? Looking for a car park is all I can think of. George street was laid down before cars were even thought of.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

24 Aug 2014 7:43pm

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Ian K said..

Why does anybody really need to drive a car down George Street? Where are they going? Looking for a car park is all I can think of. George street was laid down before cars were even thought of.

I used to have to drive in the CBD when doing a job where we had to install equipment that was picked up from the CBD office and installed in other offices in the CBD. Where we could use a trolley and walk it there we did.

These days, I only drive through there by accident. I think the CBD has some of the worst layed out roads and the signs are sometimes put where you can't see them until too late, and if you are driving there, you are looking at all the other crazy drivers. I feel a bit sheepish that I have driven from North Sydney over the bridge, and been caught in a lane where it looped back to the bridge and sent me back to North Sydney. It really is a bad layout and doesn't seem to have much thought put into it. Even trying to park in the domain car park seems to be less easy than it should be, and you would think you would want to direct people there to avoid them driving through the CBD.

Maybe they need to colour code some routes in the CBD so that people like me can just get out as quick as possible. Some flashing arrows that show me the way out of China town would be perfect.

gavnwend

1373 posts

24 Aug 2014 9:37pm

l usually cut through the city to avoid the tolls on my way through l quiet often observe people walking across the streets with ipods .seriously these people have got no road sense l too have had near misses with pedestrian running red men (lights) not to mention some of the bike couriers. interesting to note ,in the first half of the year there's been 6 CBD. road deaths 5 pedestrian & 1 skateboarder.

Mark _australia

23526 posts

24 Aug 2014 10:49pm

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Ian K said..
We've only been running around in cars for 60 yrs or so and have yet to develop an appropriate culture with regard to pedestrians. You're king in your car, as soon as you step out you're low life. Technically the road rules require vehicles turning at uncontrolled intersections to give way to pedestrians. Try doing that, see how you go! Try smiling at the pedestrian waiting to cross in example 9 and wave him across. From page 72 of the Australian road rules, similar for turning left.

Spot on with regards to rules but I'd not say we have not developed anything. In WA at least, you have to give way to a pedestrian who is crossing the road.

NOT a pedestrian who steps out onto the road after you initate your turn.

Also a pedestrian who does not cross the road at right angles (unless very obviously unable to do so) is jaywalking so you do not have to give way to them so KA43 is right, she can get farked. Should have given her a bumpernudge.

mick14

343 posts

25 Aug 2014 1:30am

Last time I was in Melbourne I saw one intersection in the city patrolled by 12 police officers.... just to make sure the pedestrians stop on red man.

Dezman

NSW

818 posts

25 Aug 2014 7:09am

I think a walking pace speed limit in shopping areas would be great, so everyone can be on the road!

A chance to wind down the window and say Gidday, check out the talent etc. Walking along

FormulaNova

15090 posts

25 Aug 2014 6:18am

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Mark _australia said..

Spot on with regards to rules but I'd not say we have not developed anything. In WA at least, you have to give way to a pedestrian who is crossing the road.

NOT a pedestrian who steps out onto the road after you initate your turn.

Also a pedestrian who does not cross the road at right angles (unless very obviously unable to do so) is jaywalking so you do not have to give way to them so KA43 is right, she can get farked. Should have given her a bumpernudge.

In reality, after the fact, who is going to get the blame. Unless you have video footage or witnesses that can prove that the pedestrian jumped out in front of the car, the car driver is going to get the blame. I suspect that even your typical 'honest' citizen would claim that they crossed safely, even if they didn't. People don't like to accept blame.

I can imagine arguing that the pedestrian was not crossing at right angles, which is why I ran her down 'your Honor'... even in WA

Lambroast

177 posts

25 Aug 2014 6:55am

+1 for these bad boys :)

I have one and it was well worth putting in... Even just for the comedy factor of giving someone a blast :)

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jn1 said...
ka43, you need three of these puppies fitted to your front grill

139dBA

Ian K

4164 posts

25 Aug 2014 8:15am

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Interesting point Mark. It gets down to the definition of "Give way". I've tried to find clarification in the rules ( www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/R/Australian%20Road%20Rules.aspx . They're standard across Australia. ) It is my interpretation that "give way" means you need to observe the pedestrians actions. If he is heading in a direction that looks like he's intending to cross, or he is at the kerb looking left and right, obviously intending to cross then I see that you "give way" and let him go first.

By analogy a right turning vehicle "gives way" to a left turning vehicle, even if they've both paused at the intersection in sorting out who goes first. I can't find a distinction in the rules between "giving way" to another vehicle and "giving way" to a pedestrian.

What can you come up with in the rules? Maybe "give way" and "right of way" are different. The term "right of way" isn't defined in the dictionary at the end of the road rules.

da vecta

QLD

2515 posts

25 Aug 2014 2:37pm

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Slightly ironic.

Elroy Jetson

706 posts

25 Aug 2014 1:05pm

In WA Pedestrians cross only when it is safe to do so. The East definitely has a different rule or culture. We dont have signs at traffic lights reminding us to 'give way to Pedestrians'. They have to wait until the green man starts flashing. Car is king here. The only time I would cross the road in WA without looking 3 times is at a thoroughly signed and marked pedestrian crossing.

Kamikuza

QLD

6493 posts

25 Aug 2014 3:38pm

In NZ the law is, IIRC, you can be ticketed for jay walking within 20m of a crossing... I'd be surprised if Oz is different.

I'm so sick of all these special people who put my safety, well-being, and financial security in jeopardy because they fell the need to exercise their right to be assholes and damn the consequences

Milsy

NSW

1176 posts

25 Aug 2014 4:01pm

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Kamikuza said..
In NZ the law is, IIRC, you can be ticketed for jay walking within 20m of a crossing... I'd be surprised if Oz is different.

I'm so sick of all these special people who put my safety, well-being, and financial security in jeopardy because they fell the need to exercise their right to be assholes and damn the consequences

Financial Security? Pfffff, fair dinkium man, get a life, its just someone crossing the road, slow down, be cool

As if someone merely crossing the road was doing it to stuff with your well being, financial security.....back to reality buddy, slow down, be cool,

Mark _australia

23526 posts

25 Aug 2014 2:07pm

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Ian K said..

Interesting point Mark. It gets down to the definition of "Give way". I've tried to find clarification in the rules ( www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/R/Australian%20Road%20Rules.aspx . They're standard across Australia. ) It is my interpretation that "give way" means you need to observe the pedestrians actions. If he is heading in a direction that looks like he's intending to cross, or he is at the kerb looking left and right, obviously intending to cross then I see that you "give way" and let him go first.
By analogy a right turning vehicle "gives way" to a left turning vehicle, even if they've both paused at the intersection in sorting out who goes first. I can't find a distinction in the rules between "giving way" to another vehicle and "giving way" to a pedestrian.
What can you come up with in the rules? Maybe "give way" and "right of way" are different. The term "right of way" isn't defined in the dictionary at the end of the road rules.

Not to much hinging on the definition of give way or right of way - the key in WA is in the words in italics
"Give way to pedestrians who are crossing the road"
So like Elroy says, we don't give way to the guy who looks like he is waitng to cross the road. The pedestrian waits until no cars are coming.
Cars only give way to people aready crossing the road.
So if you approach a corner and a slow one is still crossing, you wait for him.

But it makes sense to me, guess it is just what you're used to

Maybe that's why so many eastern staters get run over here

Elroy Jetson

706 posts

25 Aug 2014 2:53pm

It's why I nearly run over an innocent Victorian Pedestrian each year. Every time. First day of our family holidays and a Pedestrian crosses in front of the hire car I'm driving. The arrow is green at the traffic lights for the cars to turn and in an apparent suicide attempt a person just walks in front of the incoming turning cars.

Ive had a few close encounters in country Victoria, before quickly realising to re adjust my driving habits. Nobody does that in WA, well ok not true, the crazy Trolley lady in Scarborough does. She crosses the road when she feels like it, but her trolley had some dents to prove that crossing at the lights in WA before it is totally clear is not a good idea.

FormulaNova

15090 posts

25 Aug 2014 3:35pm

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Elroy Jetson said..
It's why I nearly run over an innocent Victorian Pedestrian each year. Every time. First day of our family holidays and a Pedestrian crosses in front of the hire car I'm driving. The arrow is green at the traffic lights for the cars to turn and in an apparent suicide attempt a person just walks in front of the incoming turning cars.

Ive had a few close encounters in country Victoria, before quickly realising to re adjust my driving habits. Nobody does that in WA, well ok not true, the crazy Trolley lady in Scarborough does. She crosses the road when she feels like it, but her trolley had some dents to prove that crossing at the lights in WA before it is totally clear is not a good idea.

Its because WA is so small, you all know each other. Over here, we just walk in front of anyone. We will never see them again.

Over here though, we go more than 100kmh in a 110 zone in the right hand lane.

Ian K

4164 posts

25 Aug 2014 3:36pm

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Mark _australia said..

Ian K said..

Interesting point Mark. It gets down to the definition of "Give way". I've tried to find clarification in the rules ( www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/R/Australian%20Road%20Rules.aspx . They're standard across Australia. ) It is my interpretation that "give way" means you need to observe the pedestrians actions. If he is heading in a direction that looks like he's intending to cross, or he is at the kerb looking left and right, obviously intending to cross then I see that you "give way" and let him go first.
By analogy a right turning vehicle "gives way" to a left turning vehicle, even if they've both paused at the intersection in sorting out who goes first. I can't find a distinction in the rules between "giving way" to another vehicle and "giving way" to a pedestrian.
What can you come up with in the rules? Maybe "give way" and "right of way" are different. The term "right of way" isn't defined in the dictionary at the end of the road rules.

Finally found someone on the net quoting a policemen who had an explanation. It all gets down to the lawyers who said you couldn't use the term "right of way" when drafting the road rules. If they used that term then one party could be fully responsible. The term "give way" allows fault to be partitioned between the parties colliding.

So a right turning vehicle "gives way" to a vehicle turning left onto the same road. In effect the left turning vehicle has "right of way" but we're not allowed to say that.

A turning vehicle "gives way" to a pedestrian crossing at the road into which it is turning. This is where the road rules differ even if they are expressed in an analogous manner. Unlike the left turning vehicle, the pedestrian does not have "right of way". The car has an unstated "right of way" as long as the pedestrian is not already in the collision zone. "Give way" in this instance just means "if push come to shove don't run him over if you can help it".

The whole deal on the different meaning of "give way" when referring to cars and pedestrians is apparently legally covered by the one overriding, hard-to-find rule no. 236 in the huge volume of road rules.

"

<div class="page">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">236—Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction (1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver. "

Elroy Jetson

706 posts

25 Aug 2014 9:16pm

Well it looks to me that Pedestrians, not in a shared zone or on a Pedestrian / Childrens crossing, who step out in front of moving vehicles are totally in the wrong.

I'm happy to be corrected but it appears that people in WA do it right! Who would have thought eh.....

* A driver must give way to any pedestrian on a pedestrian
crossing.

* A driver driving in a shared zone must give way to any
pedestrian in the zone

* A driver approaching a children’s crossing must drive at a
speed at which the driver can, if necessary, stop safely before
the crossing.

Check out Rule 80, Rule 81 and Rule 83 (starting on page 106) ww38.woj.com.au/AustRoadRulespts1-21.pdf

Kamikuza

QLD

6493 posts

25 Aug 2014 11:38pm

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Milsy said..

Naturally, you know more about the place I live than I do, so I'm loathe to burst your bubble...

saltiest1

NSW

2562 posts

25 Aug 2014 11:41pm

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Elroy Jetson said..
In WA Pedestrians cross only when it is safe to do so. The East definitely has a different rule or culture. We dont have signs at traffic lights reminding us to 'give way to Pedestrians'. They have to wait until the green man starts flashing. Car is king here. The only time I would cross the road in WA without looking 3 times is at a thoroughly signed and marked pedestrian crossing.

thats not what i find around here. they often have the mentality of "he won't hit me i will be ok, i don't need to check how close that 4wd is getting to me... OH F*&@#!!!"

mick14

343 posts

26 Aug 2014 12:12am

There is no such thing as "right of way", only the obligation to give way.

I heard a story about a guy who got out of his car to threaten the other motorist in a road rage situation. The other motorist drove his car at the "threatening pedestrian", who went straight to the police, expecting them to charge the other guy with assault with a deadly weapon or similar. But the police told him "what were you doing on the road? The road is for cars. You should have stayed in yours".

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