Select to expand quotekersh said..UncleBob said..kersh said.
I didn't know that this was considered conservative. But I can't see the point of religion. From my observations over the years, nothing good has come from it.
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
What? Moses went out and said Commandment 11 is "Thou must develop sailing and go out thereby to carry thine pestilence to other lands"?
In case you missed history classes, it was the Moslem, Hindu and Confucian parts of the world that were more economically and scientifically developed than Europe until sometime in the 16 or 1700s
You Do Understand that Like Christianity cammd Islam is also an off shot of Judaism
Let me break it down in simplistic terms
First comes The Talmud the Jewish Religious text with all its prophets. God was mean and vengeful. This is what we as Christians call the Old Testament.
Then along comes Jesus the prophet of the Christians. He's got a New deal and says God has turned in to a Kind and compassionate God
Then along comes Muhammad the Prophet of Islam. He says that Humanity has broken the deal Jesus laid out and God is going back to his old ways and imposing all the old restriction like the food ect. And he's pissed so you better do as he says
It just amazes me so much violence all in the name of the same God
Select to expand quotecammd said..
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
Have you visited anywhere in China in the last 5 years? Obviously not. I f you had, you would have seen 'with your own eyes' that they are maybe 50 years ahead of us. It would blow your tiny mind.
I know you are stupid and can tell you never made it past high school. I'm not saying that you need a university degree to be worldly, but you come across as dumb as a bag of hammers.
I'm willing to put $50 that the only book you ever read was Storm Boy as part of the school curriculum, and you didn't even read that, you watched the movie.
C'mon Cammd, get triggered and get banned
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..
Have you visited anywhere in China in the last 5 years? Obviously not. I f you had, you would have seen 'with your own eyes' that they are maybe 50 years ahead of us. It would blow your tiny mind.
Don't get me started as to why Australia is so F'ing useless ! 
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..cammd said..
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
Have you visited anywhere in China in the last 5 years? Obviously not. I f you had, you would have seen 'with your own eyes' that they are maybe 50 years ahead of us. It would blow your tiny mind.
eh ? So you reckon anywhere in China is 50 years ahead of Australia in living standards and human rights ?
Can you expand on this a little ?
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
eh ? So you reckon anywhere in China is 50 years ahead of Australia in living standards and human rights ?
Can you expand on this a little ?
I was in China in 2011, doing business, visited a number of factories, workers lived on site 50 weeks a year and worked 7 days. 2 weeks off for chinese new year. Earning about 800usd a month. Safety standards were non existant.
Some of the businesses I visited were scraping by, owners with families living on site. Others, that had the right connections were doing great, big offices european cars etc.
A big divide between haves and have nots, those with connections and those without, guess that is equality of socialism for you.
Food was great and cheap every restaurant was like underwater world.
Couldnt see the sky for air pollution, traffic was crazy
Btw IanR are you not amazed by the violence of Atheists, is it expected?
Select to expand quotecammd said..
Couldnt see the sky for air pollution, traffic was crazy
I like visiting big Asian Cities, and not even Tokyo compared to Shanghai, I reckon it was 10 years ahead of Seoul and Tokyo.
I also travelled to Jingdezhen on a bullet train, I have an acquaintance who is successfuly selling pottery glazes to the Chinese and the rest of the world from there. He has a factory in Nanning and some showrooms in Jingdezhen. I visited some industrial areas, where they fire pottery on a huge scale and can tell you that OH&S is a thing now.
Homosexuality has been decriminalized. Gay marriage is not recognized, transgender individuals face stringent, medicalized criteria for legal gender changes and I don't think they know what a pronoun is. So yes - the Chinese are not as 'woke' as us.
Air polution is always something I haven't liked about the big Asian cities, especially with the high humidity.
I don't know if it was the time of year but the air was very clean in Shanghai in November. 70% of cars there were electric - they have green number plates. 15 years, since you've been there. I'm sure a lot has changed, the Chinese are advancing their society at an 'eye watering' rate.
It's no wonder Trump wants to make America great again, they are well behind China from what I saw with 'my own eyes'.
Enormous divide between the haves and have nots! Huge highly visible drug, homeless and mental health problems in most cities. Very dirty. Many people barely scraping by. Yet the swamp has double the number of billionaires of China.
.
Select to expand quotecammd said..kersh said..UncleBob said..kersh said. I didn't know that this was considered conservative. But I can't see the point of religion. From my observations over the years, nothing good has come from it.
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
You can believe that, some of us might believe that the human rights and standards you point to have come about despite your Judea Christian traditions.
Select to expand quoteD3 said..cammd said..kersh said..UncleBob said..kersh said. I didn't know that this was considered conservative. But I can't see the point of religion. From my observations over the years, nothing good has come from it.
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
You can believe that, some of us might believe that the human rights and standards you point to have come about despite your Judea Christian traditions.
Doesnt surprise me, some of you believe men can get pregnant too.
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..
Human rights/Living standards....
No idea why human rights (as our understanding of them are) are more progressive if you have an army of Kung-Fu robots.
Or why having to live in a giant city of 10M+ people that requires 20 lanes highways with 15 exits puts people's living standards over those of anyone else.
I guess it depends on what you look for when assessing your own requirements for living standard and human rights.
Here's a question for you.
Do you think the National Socialist Network sh would be allowed to form a political party in China ?
This is directly related to the topic at hand.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
No idea why human rights (as our understanding of them are) are more progressive if you have an army of Kung-Fu robots.
Or why having to live in a giant city of 10M+ people that requires 20 lanes highways with 15 exits puts people's living standards over those of anyone else.
I guess it depends on what you look for when assessing your own requirements for living standard and human rights.
Here's a question for you.
Do you think the National Socialist Network sh would be allowed to form a political party in China ?
This is directly related to the topic at hand.
Hey, I'm no human rights/political expert, like either yourself or Cammd.
I just visited China as a naive Westerner with no understanding of their language. I just made some observations using my 'own eyes' and only relayed whats commonly referred to as 'Empirical Evidence'.
The Chinese are doing pretty good from what I saw. Generally, the people seem better off in Shanghai than people in all cities I've been to in the U.S. I left thinking that China was 50 years ahead of Australia.
If you type into Google 'human rights abuses in China' and then 'human rights abuses in Australia' you might get a better answer than I could give you.
Fair enough MSN, fair enough. Don't get ya knickers in a twist and I get what you are saying about technological advances and control of society to produce what may appear to be a utopian future (even if that future is actually more dis-topian below the surface). And maybe in 50 years time Australia will no longer be a democracy, will have a single socialist government determining what is best for society and will need 20 lane highways for the population of 500 million people who fled mainland China to swamp Australia for the higher living standards and improved human rights....so maybe China is 50 years 'ahead'.
....but to be fair, you gave cammd's three sentence comment about where our living standards and human rights came from a pretty brutal response claiming cammd was stupid, knew nothing whilst your worldly experience and knowledge was far superior.
All I was trying to do was to learn from your expertise,
Because whilst I beLIEve it is fair bit more nuanced than cammd's three sentence comment, the premise that I read into cammd's claim I'd generally think is at least plausible, if not actually correct.
Things like the separation of church and state, the rule of codified law with the separation of the law makers, the law upholders and the judiciary, valuation put on all human life, occur relatively strongly in societies that have a long term Judeo-Christian background. Not exclusively for sure, but I'd suggest those things do have a significant foundation in providing our values, living standards and human rights.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't agree religion has never done any harm, doesn't mean western culture is perfect, doesn't even mean the effect is solely linked to a single cause, but I didn't really understand the notion that appeared to be arguing atheist societies, such as post revolutionary China, have a better record at delivering superior living standards and human rights.
I would also add that I am not sure China could have achieved what it has achieved in the last 50 years (since its pivot away from 'cultural revolutions' to market-based capitalist reforms) in lifting 1 billion people into modernity by being a democratic state with a westminster style governmental regime and strong religious beliefs and controls. But that is not directly related to the topic at hand.
I agree, the Chinese aren't as 'woke' as those from a Judeo-Christian background.
Cammd saying people from a Judeo-Christian background are superior is a very naive, racist and un-worldly opinion, in my opinion.
Every country has evolved. Some better than others. In the past 50 years I would argue that China has evolved way faster - lifting 1 billion people into modernity - than any country from a Judeo-Christian background.
It's easy to see why America harks back to the past with slogans like 'make America great again', and now have a president who is seeking to roll back democracy, human rights and wokeness. America, is still the leading superpower, but for how much longer?
They are certainly not commanding and promoting the same influence on other nations as they once so successfuly did. They appear to be doing the opposite, by becoming a far more insular society.
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..America, is still the leading superpower, but for how much longer?
That was the point of my post. The US of A seems to have lost its way compared to the majority of the world. So much potential thrown away with the focus on military spending rather than healthcare and affordable housing. Now they want to crash the worlds economy to level the playing field more in their favour.
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..
Cammd saying people from a Judeo-Christian background are superior is a very naive, racist and un-worldly opinion, in my opinion.
I didn't take cammd's point to be that. If it was then I'd agree with ya.
I thought the point was : A claim religion has done nothing good and the response : It has helped create western civilisation, and western living standards and human rights compliance is good. Hence at least some religion has done some good.
I am sure you could have probably used perhaps the Buddhism practices of giving out free food to the needy as a better example, but it was still an example of something good religion has delivered humanity.
In the additional off-topic discussion in regards to China in the last 50 years, yep, no doubt one of the largest changes a human society has ever experienced (as indeed Carantoc initially pointed out).
The western world did similar, but over a period of 200 or 300 years. So you could ask why did China have to play sudden catch-up in the last 50 years ? What held China back in those previous times ? Introspective Imperialism and then Socialism with it's required atheism (atheism to ensure only the one socialist governing body had any form of societal control) ? Something else ? Too nuanced to describe ?
And is it arguable the last 50 years of progress were a requirement to ensure 1.5 billion people didn't rebel against the CCP ? Are both the method and destination of that progress not modelled on western style market-based capitalism with a social safety net ? Is this market-based capitalism with social safety-net being an original product, at least in part, by the Judeo-Christian heritage of western values ?
As mentioned above, I am not convinced that level of progress could have been achieved in 50 years by 1 billion people via a western style democratic government. It probably could have been done to a greater or lesser extent over a period of 300 years. But much like Carl Marx theorized you couldn't go from capitalism to communism without travelling through socialism, Carantoc is theorising you can't take 1 billion people from agrarian feudal to industrialised democracy in 50 years without going through dictator based socialism. That does not necessarily make either Carantoc or Marx fans of mandated-atheistic Socialism or Carantoc beLIEve that those unique 50 years in one unique society prove religion provided nothing good in previous 2,000 years of just about every other high living standard, human right accepting society.
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..
They are certainly not commanding and promoting the same influence on other nations as they once so successfuly did. They appear to be doing the opposite, by becoming a far more insular society.
No disagreement there, the decline of USA does certainly appear to be occurring. But I'd suggest it wasn't Trump that started it. It was more likely your so-called US 'woke'-ness.
USA - first super-power in history that doesn't seek territory based imperialism. USA can't win a war because occupying the land, installing your government over the people and taking the wealth of the defeated isn't accepted by the woke American public (or the woke American public institutions if not the actual public).
Result - you can start a war but you can never win it.
Second best in history was the 19th C British Empire. Win a war, occupy the land but respect the human rights of the natives.
Result - you can start war, you can win it, but in the end you have to give it all back anyway.
Third best is everyone else. Start a war and its war so the enemy population has no human rights. The enemy's friend's population has no human rights and anyone who isn't a dedicated un-questioning ally is effectively the enemy so burn all their places of worship.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
USA - first super-power in history that doesn't seek territory based imperialism. USA can't win a war because occupying the land, installing your government over the people and taking the wealth of the defeated isn't accepted by the woke American public (or the woke American public institutions if not the actual public).
I might be missing something or maybe you don't know about the recent threats U.S.A. have made to Greenland. The rehtoric by Trump sounds like he's seeking 'territory based imperialism' to me.
Well, yes to be a pedant perhaps it would have been more accurate to say 'territory based colonial conquest'.
and yes OK, the USA since 1776 has gained significant amount of territory. But most has been by purchase, agreement or treaty and not by more traditional empire building conquest. In fact I'd think the majority of territory gained has been by purchase or agreement from other colonial powers, not by conquest of the native population.
Not sure one rant from Trump defines 250 years of USA foreign history, and as Mark_Oz says the US public and public institutions have very broadly condemned the idea, and we will have to wait and see what happens, so far nothing.
Having a think now - the current USA territory won by USA direct conquest of the native population:
1) Original 13 colonies that declared independence (starting point so doesn't count anyway)
2) Hawaii late 1800s, although wasn't this more of a civil uprising, although perhaps an uprising by USA immigrants against the native rulers so not USA military conquest directly but maybe add it to the list because maybe it was politically supported by US government
3) Alaska, Texas, Florida all purchased or gained from other colonial powers
4) The vast number of US military bases around the world. Count these ? Not many taken and retained by conquest and arguably many were retained after WW2, after the rest of the country or territory was returned to the native population following Allied victory. So maybe if you add these, you have to also subtract the fact the rest of the country was handed back.
5) umm, any others ? Maybe Guam and pacific islands, maybe Puerto Rico ? not sure history of those.
So I get a grand total of maximum of about 1 ? Put that up against any other super-power / colonial power since the rise of the Egyptian Pharaohs and it seems statistically equivalent to zero.
Part of the cause for the American Revolution was the Crown's declaration that the colonies couldn't take any more natives' land.
Except for the Louisiana Purchase of stolen land, almost all of the USA's westward expansion came by conquest of First Nations.
Select to expand quotemyscreenname said..
I might be missing something or maybe you don't know about the recent threats U.S.A. have made to Greenland. The rehtoric by Trump sounds like he's seeking 'territory based imperialism' to me.
Didn't Trump offer to purchase it?
Greenland has a population of what ? 40,000 people or something and a military of exactly zero personnel.
If the USA wanted to take Greenland by miliary force it would be over in 4 seconds. By the time Denmark worked out what was happening and pedaled home from the Lego factory to grab their water-pistols it would be over.
I don't think it is a fear of military failure that is holding Trump's regime back. More like political considerations of the USA public and public institutions. More likely the US military would say 'no we won't because it isn't politically acceptable' than say 'no we can't'.
Best just hope the Chinese and Russian military (and the Martians when they get here) will always say the same thing. Although I doubt that very much.
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
Part of the cause for the American Revolution was the Crown's declaration that the colonies couldn't take any more natives' land.
Except for the Louisiana Purchase of stolen land, almost all of the USA's westward expansion came by conquest of First Nations.
Was it ? Wasn't a lot of that taken from Mexico when Mexico was the original colonial power.
Remember the Alamo. One of the greatest Hollywood films ever. Jim Bowie, John Wayne and a ratbag group of Texans and southerners fighting off the might of the army of General Antonio Lopez Santa Anna. I am sure it brings tears of pride to any true blue MAGA member just thinking about it. It is where the Bowie knife was invented and where Jim Crockett first added a racoon tail to a hat, later adopted by QAnon Shaman man.
I get all my history from Hollywood films by the way so I might have embellished a few things.
Select to expand quoteCarantoc said..
Didn't Trump offer to purchase it?
Select to expand quotecammd said..D3 said..cammd said..kersh said..UncleBob said..kersh said. I didn't know that this was considered conservative. But I can't see the point of religion. From my observations over the years, nothing good has come from it.
You haven't noticed Western Culture, it stems directly from the Judea christian tradition. It has produced the best living standards and human rights in the history of the world. Pretty good stuff I think but easy to miss I guess.
You can believe that, some of us might believe that the human rights and standards you point to have come about despite your Judea Christian traditions.
Doesnt surprise me, some of you believe men can get pregnant too.
And look at you being unable to deal with the concept that people who aren't like you should be allowed to exist.
Select to expand quotehilly said..myscreenname said..America, is still the leading superpower, but for how much longer?
That was the point of my post. The US of A seems to have lost its way compared to the majority of the world. So much potential thrown away with the focus on military spending rather than healthcare and affordable housing. Now they want to crash the worlds economy to level the playing field more in their favour.
Trump has been riding a wave of nationalism, his whole MAGA schtick about putting America First and Making America Great Again has led to this.
What is the one thing the USA is the undisputed World Leader in?
Military spending.
When the only tool you've got is a hammer.....?
I suppose the current administration could have committed to improving Health, Education, domestic industry and become such a beacon of the Western Hemisphere they could exert diplomatic power.
But that's not what the voters wanted.
