People banging on about EV & clean energy need to watch Michael Moores - Planet of the Humans

I was very happy with Scomos decision, we really don't need any more disadvantages, we already have enough.

It's easier to fool the masses than to convince them that they are being fooled. -Mark Twain

Fark this beach

Great Video Make the change like King Greta . Mabe even tag the CCP in it I'm pretty sure they care about keeping the inventory and products stocked up on the Kmart shelves over global emissions ...as much as you enjoy purchasing it. The change starts at home or else your pissing on your feet in the wind.

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MickPC said..
It's easier to fool the masses than to convince them that they are being fooled. -Mark Twain

That statement works both ways Mick. We all have to watch out for our conformation bias when consuming any info. This "documentary" with Michael Moore's name on it has so many holes in it, with a lot of the facts over 10years old. Things have change a lot with renewables and the grid. It seems the main intent of the doc was to talk about the finite resources of the planet, but it got a bit off track.

www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2020/05/13/what-michael-moores-new-climate-documentary-gets-wrong-about-renewables/?sh=48fbd9e0464d

You think we are disadvantaged now.. What about when the rest of the world puts a tax on our goods because we have done next to nothing about climate change.

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MickPC said..
It's easier to fool the masses than to convince them that they are being fooled. -Mark Twain

Oh, here is some more with actual data.

Why is the government deciding what sort of cars we should drive? Suddenly cars become political too. It's crazy.

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Mobydisc said..
Why is the government deciding what sort of cars we should drive? Suddenly cars become political too. It's crazy.

FFS

Is she really complaining that the fact that the government isn't subsidising cars that only the rich can afford?

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GavGav said..

puts a tax on our goods ..

Good one!

No need to over analyse juice media... just watch and enjoy

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bjw said..
Is she really complaining that the fact that the government isn't subsidising cars that only the rich can afford?

Yeah that's right, I agree, it should stick to subsidising the O & G industry building tax payer funded gas fired power generators FFS!

And you gotta love being bent over at the bowser every long weekend, Easter, Christmas and generally whenever they need to squeeze more blood from that stone.

So who stole the weekend?

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Pugwash said..
No need to over analyse juice media... just watch and enjoy

I watched with the sound turned off

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AUS1111 said..

Pugwash said..
No need to over analyse juice media... just watch and enjoy

I watched with the sound turned off

You'll miss all the valuable messages if you do that

Here is another great video... I'm sure some of our former pals here would see Loz as being a massive media baron...

...I should add that provided a thorough cost benefit analysis has confirmed that subsidising EVs is the most efficient way to use taxpayer dollars to mitigate climate change, I'm all for it.

Thing is, I have a hunch it isn't...

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AUS1111 said..
...I should add that provided a thorough cost benefit analysis has confirmed that subsidising EVs is the most efficient way to use taxpayer dollars to mitigate climate change, I'm all for it.

Thing is, I have a hunch it isn't...

Correct, 10 year battery pack consumes as much co2 in production and *recycling as a Diesel engine, best thing to do would be to limit vehicle ownership within a cap and trade market mechanism with a ceiling price and regional rebates.

got a hunch that ain't gunna happen

what at they aren't telling you is that the oil is already more than half gone, decent supplies only exist half a world away, and we import 97% of consumption, aus should be looking at renewable hydrogen ASAP if we wanna keep food on the table

* no real recycling yet, but will be a market to watch

Currently the fossil fuel industry is sucking on the Australian taxpayer teat to the tune of $10.3 billion, some estimates $12 billion. Global subsides (2017) are estimated at $5.2 trillion

australiainstitute.org.au/post/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-hit-10-3-billion-in-2020-21/#:~:text=Fossil%20fuel%20subsidies%20cost%20Australians,today%20by%20The%20Australia%20Institute.

www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/

www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies

There's a long list of problems associated with burning fossil fuels the main ones:
- Annual Australian deaths from petrol and diesel tail pipes more than 1750
- Deaths from air pollution Australia 5000, globally 8.7 million
- Dependency on foreign fuel supply, current estimates around 20 days
- Australian Health costs from pollution > $14billion
- Inaction leading to irreversible environment damage

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Rails said..

AUS1111 said..
...I should add that provided a thorough cost benefit analysis has confirmed that subsidising EVs is the most efficient way to use taxpayer dollars to mitigate climate change, I'm all for it.

Thing is, I have a hunch it isn't...

Correct, 10 year battery pack consumes as much co2 in production and *recycling as a Diesel engine, best thing to do would be to limit vehicle ownership within a cap and trade market mechanism with a ceiling price and regional rebates.

* no real recycling yet, but will be a market to watch

So a diesel engine and battery pack pack have the same production CO2 emissions? That means you need to factor in the 10 years of additional tailpipe emissions for the ICE??
I took this photo yesterday. The thing to remember is that not only are the 20+ cars around you emitting assorts of pollution, there are 19.8 million vehicles in Australia all doing it. That is why the smog looked bad in the still Melbourne autumn air yesterday and today.


Hydrogen for heavy vehicles and BEVs for personal transport is the way to go.

I don't see the point of Hydrogen for personal cars as you can't make your own Hydrogen therefore you will have to pay someone else for it, but you certainly can make your own electricity!


EVs currently do not cover everyone's use cases, but eventually they will.

It'd be interesting to know if it is cleaner to produce energy directly to the wheel shaft via a petrol motor or create electricity 100km away using coal, transport it via copper wires, then charge a battery.

It doesn't sound cleaner to do it via a battery (except at a local level), it seems inefficient, but I have no idea about this.

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bjw said..
It'd be interesting to know if it is cleaner to produce energy directly to the wheel shaft via a petrol motor or create electricity 100km away using coal, transport it via copper wires, then charge a battery.

It doesn't sound cleaner to do it via a battery (except at a local level), it seems inefficient, but I have no idea about this.

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GavGav said..

Rails said..

AUS1111 said..
...I should add that provided a thorough cost benefit analysis has confirmed that subsidising EVs is the most efficient way to use taxpayer dollars to mitigate climate change, I'm all for it.

Thing is, I have a hunch it isn't...

Correct, 10 year battery pack consumes as much co2 in production and *recycling as a Diesel engine, best thing to do would be to limit vehicle ownership within a cap and trade market mechanism with a ceiling price and regional rebates.

* no real recycling yet, but will be a market to watch

So a diesel engine and battery pack pack have the same production CO2 emissions? That means you need to factor in the 10 years of additional tailpipe emissions for the ICE??
I took this photo yesterday. The thing to remember is that not only are the 20+ cars around you emitting assorts of pollution, there are 19.8 million vehicles in Australia all doing it. That is why the smog looked bad in the still Melbourne autumn air yesterday and today.


Hydrogen for heavy vehicles and BEVs for personal transport is the way to go.

I don't see the point of Hydrogen for personal cars as you can't make your own Hydrogen therefore you will have to pay someone else for it, but you certainly can make your own electricity!


EVs currently do not cover everyone's use cases, but eventually they will.

Rails made an assertion there without backing it up.
Meanwhile there's a company on the East Coast trying to get battery powered trucks up and running for long distance freight. Their idea is that you swap a battery pack in and out of the prime mover halfway between Sydney and Melbourne or Brisbane

Swap and go: electric trucks to run between Sydney and Brisbane using exchangeable batteries | Transport | The Guardian

Edit ... not sure why copying the link isn't working

Yeh, I made it up but far from a silver bullet these EVs. We just move the carbon debt to the place of manufacture:

When comparing to the most effecient internal combustion engine vehicle, a typical electric car in Europe produces 29% less greenhouse gas emissions over 150000km.

theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf

The logical fallacy is to believe you save anything by consuming more

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bjw said..
It'd be interesting to know if it is cleaner to produce energy directly to the wheel shaft via a petrol motor or create electricity 100km away using coal, transport it via copper wires, then charge a battery.

It doesn't sound cleaner to do it via a battery (except at a local level), it seems inefficient, but I have no idea about this.

As opposed to exploration, wells, ships to transport, refine, store, ship again, store, transport to bowser, then put in your car. Have I missed a step? And everyone gets a cut every step of the way and subject to prices set by cartels and the fluctuating dollar.
Factor that in against local electricity production, even with coal.

We'll all have electric cars soon , even the most right wing gas burning climate denier. As all the car manufacturers have now announced when they'll stop making ICE cars and switching what are you going to buy?
It's interesting to read the history of cars v horses and see the same arguments come up as people are using now. The world is changing .......

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kato said..
We'll all have electric cars soon , even the most right wing gas burning climate denier. As all the car manufacturers have now announced when they'll stop making ICE cars and switching what are you going to buy?
It's interesting to read the history of cars v horses and see the same arguments come up as people are using now. The world is changing .......

And what a shame it was... horses were much much better than ICE.

Just yesterday I was saying to my colleagues, I wish we could just mount this thingemy-bob on a horse...

Well, there you go. Finally some sort of plan from the Vic gov, shame there is nothing from the federal.
www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-01/victorian-plan-to-boost-zero-emission-cars/100108626?fbclid=IwAR22WoPfhxi892aE-ZTV1DNJUU6IcRGRiN__7aTPgoe7v3XSo8ZzFURCt5E