I've currently got an old LC 80 series and I use it for towing and camping. It's heavy and slow. Being diesel it's reasonably good on consumption. So I see the new 3t towing fast and frugal dual cabs and wonder should I upgrade and then I saw the following story and heard a couple of horror stories up at the Daintree recently about abandoned high tech 4wd cars that are left because the owner dropped the keys breaking the fob and being stuck.
Having a car stuck in park in in deep water WTF was he designer thinking?
Um no thanks.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-09-29/wa-farmer-using-tractor-to-rescue-flooded-motorists/9000768

You cant blame any 4wd be it soft roader or tricked up, for getting wet, bogged, hooked up etc.
The common factor in all this is the nut behind the wheel.

Go get your new 4wd and drive it to is limits, not beyond its limits.

These SUV's are now becoming more readily available and the people buying the have very little clue how to drive them in an off-road mode. They have unrealistic expectations and no experience. As Craig mentioned understand the machine and drive it to its capabilities/limits. Any vehicle old or new will get into trouble when submerged. If it can't breath it will drown. One gob-full of water and you're finished, the motor will hydraulic.

Iv'e seen plenty of the older types of 4x4's in a whole load of trouble because the owner thinks now they have a 4x4 they can do anything. They are quickly proven wrong and lose everything and their ego is no more.

I've been owning 4x4's for the last 20 years, i'm no gun but i know the limits of each vehicle or with what i'm comfortable with . The new vehicles actually rock and can do that same stuff as the older ones but with comfort. Upgrade Slammin and treat nature with respect.

I think they have become too hi tech.
Going to be a lot of turbo diesels going really cheap soon when a fuel pump costs $4K and the car is not worth much more than that. Who in their right mind would buy the part? A 10-15 y/o fourby could conceivably need a $10K service for a fuel pump, turbo refresh and a clutch.


My favourite is the Grand Cherokee that went into limp mode as it had a shock sensor in case things get rough. That was on normal average corrugated gravel road.

However looking at this story it is knobs who think their SUV is a fourby.

Internal combustion is just getting too complex. Combustion is such a fickle process. Extracting energy from it on the fly at constantly changing power requirements consistent with 2018 environmental concerned is next to impossible. Pipes within pipes. Double stage turbochargers, Co2 sensors, Nox sensors, Knock sensors, Variable valve timing. 8 speed gearboxes! They sell 8 speeds like it's a good thing. No they're 8 speeds to try and keep the engine in its cleanest operating mode during the EPA drive cycle.

Sooner we go electric the better. An electric motor has 1 moving part. 4wd? Put a hub motor in each wheel. 4 moving parts. What can go wrong?

I am tempted to buy a Landcruiser 200 series Turbo Diesel. But I am reluctant because of the electronic gadgets. A Turbo Diesel 100 would be a better compromise but they are now in their 300,000 Km range. A bit of a dilemma.

However, a neighbour of mine just returned from a 6-month long service leave. They took a LC 200 Turbo Diesel towing a 2-tonne van all the way to NT and down to Alice Springs. I asked and expected him to tell me of horror stories about the LC with its electronics and all. But no. It was his off-road van that was the issue. It snapped its suspensions twice. "What about the LC ?" I asked. Not a problem. I honestly didn't expect that.

I expected the massive corrugations and dust would stuff up the electronics quickly. That made wanting to give the LC 200 a second look.

Yes, the cost of servicing and replacing the high-tech diesel fuel injection systems will be massive. Unfortunately, I believe just about all new diesel cars are like that, unless you go for a petrol one.

Jupiter I've driven the 200's for work and they're awesome, never did any water crossings so can't help there. Just remember that the early ones had oil consumption issues and many were driven with very low oil levels.

Yes i agree it's the nut behind the wheel but a 4wd that can't drive through still water without ending up locked in P is pointless. Or as I know of abandoned because the fob was damaged... I mean c'mon. That'd happen to me for sure. RACQ - "yeah I'm in Lakefield and I wet my fob..."

^^^ for a standard fourby IF you know what you are doing and take it steady , water to the top of the tyres MAX is a good indicator.
Those in the article are softroaders with water almost up to the windows . No wonder their tranny electrics ****ed up ..... cos they sat in the water for 2hrs after the engine ingested water. They are lucky the water was not flowing or they'd be dead. Idiots.

I agree with the key thing, FFS can't we just have normal keys on a man's 4WD.

Now as to wet trannies, well the other forum is the place.....

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slammin said..
Jupiter I've driven the 200's for work and they're awesome, never did any water crossings so can't help there. Just remember that the early ones had oil consumption issues and many were driven with very low oil levels.

Yes i agree it's the nut behind the wheel but a 4wd that can't drive through still water without ending up locked in P is pointless. Or as I know of abandoned because the fob was damaged... I mean c'mon. That'd happen to me for sure. RACQ - "yeah I'm in Lakefield and I wet my fob..."

Yes, the nut. Indeed.

A few years ago, at the local supermarket car park, I saw a man kept pointing his car key at his ute. Intrigued, I watched him a bit. After quite a few attempts, I just couldn't resist and asked what seemed to be the issue there. He told me that the battery on his electronic car key is low, hence he couldn't open his car doors. I then asked if he can get in, can he start the car? He said yes. It is Just that he couldn't get inside the bloody thing, he said.

Then I suggested he used his car key to "manually" open the door, then start it. He thought for a while, and did as I suggested. Too deep in electronics, too shallow in intelligence, I suspect.

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Ian K said..
Internal combustion is just getting too complex. Combustion is such a fickle process. Extracting energy from it on the fly at constantly changing power requirements consistent with 2018 environmental concerned is next to impossible. Pipes within pipes. Double stage turbochargers, Co2 sensors, Nox sensors, Knock sensors, Variable valve timing. 8 speed gearboxes! They sell 8 speeds like it's a good thing. No they're 8 speeds to try and keep the engine in its cleanest operating mode during the EPA drive cycle.

Sooner we go electric the better. An electric motor has 1 moving part. 4wd? Put a hub motor in each wheel. 4 moving parts. What can go wrong?

flat battery

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cammd said..

Ian K said..
Internal combustion is just getting too complex. Combustion is such a fickle process. Extracting energy from it on the fly at constantly changing power requirements consistent with 2018 environmental concerned is next to impossible. Pipes within pipes. Double stage turbochargers, Co2 sensors, Nox sensors, Knock sensors, Variable valve timing. 8 speed gearboxes! They sell 8 speeds like it's a good thing. No they're 8 speeds to try and keep the engine in its cleanest operating mode during the EPA drive cycle.

Sooner we go electric the better. An electric motor has 1 moving part. 4wd? Put a hub motor in each wheel. 4 moving parts. What can go wrong?

flat battery

You'll just have to do the sums, like you do with petrol. Plus one of those pop top tent arrangements made out of solar panel fabric. Never run out of fuel just have to stay put for a sunny day..

It seems strange that you would go on a trip where you could reasonably expect to get stuck, and not take a spare fob. You know the car is not drivable without it. You take jump leads and spare tyres and all the rest. You get a spare fob when you buy the car. Why not have it in the kit?

My take on high tech vehicles:

- the tech is often more efficient and reliable than the previous mechanical stuff. All those linkages and springs and diaphragms and crap that would gunk up and kill your vehicle. High tech is generally much more reliable.

- if your big fat 4WD is stuffed then it's stuffed. It's too heavy to push. You're going to need a jump start if you've got a flat battery. Anything else is going to be too hard to fix no matter what it is. Most electronics have a limp home mode.

- being a bush mechanic is all well and good. I gave that up decades ago. Much better to have a car that works really really well 99% of the time vs a car that works ok 60% of the time.

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slammin said..
Jupiter I've driven the 200's for work and they're awesome, never did any water crossings so can't help there.

How about you do us all a favour, please. Take your company LC 200 and do a road test in water. Don't get too ambitious as you may get into trouble. Just in water as high as your doors will do. I, and many of us will be very keen to find out how it went.

Oh...if the car does stuff up, blame the GPS for leading you into the deep water

I have always had a 4wd and always used them at my leisure really only on beaches. Never really had any issue until my latest 150 series Prado. The bloody turning options off before hitting the sand saw me bogged last xmas for the first time in many decades. I often use the car on remote beaches like Mutton bird and often on my own. To get yourself out of a bog is hard and i can say it dented my offload confidence heavily..

My last Prado a 120 series was i felt to date my best, but i think these days they are getting very confusing..

I agree - traction control just makes you bogged when in sand.
Now they have a sand mode because the tech made them useless so they needed more tech.

Anyone who can make a garden variety live axle 4WD - completely old school drivetrain - but with a decent interior and at a reasonable price would sell them like hotcakes.

The reason newbe 4x4 drivers get bogged in sand is not the tech's fault its the lack of experience drivers fault that thinks the tech should do everything for them.
The tech keeps getting better every year, there have been issues but that is how things progress.
Don't be scared of new technology, They don't make old school basic stuff anymore because no one will buy it. Would be like making an old tube box television set.........financial suicide, except for the only one sold to Markie, lol

^^^ actually if you have traction control that cannot be turned off it IS the tech that gets you bogged in sand. Sand is all about momentum even if some wheel spin occurs (likely) but traction control applies brakes to the wheel that is slipping. That kills your momentum in deep dry sand real quick.
I never said anything about newbies and all the 4WD magazine testers said the same about traction control. I guess they were all noobs too and you told them too huh?

Lotocrap displaying lack of knowledge just to have a shot at Markie. Who woulda thought....

lol, you believe the media too much Markie, done many trips to dry soft sand islands in 4x4 with traction control and if you know your vehicle and what it can do and have the right tire pressure its not an issue. But if you cant work that out, like you said the new tech does it for you anyways so its now an old school issue that's been corrected for the newbies.
And have you told the car manufactures of your brilliant idea to make them millions by going back to the 90's 4x4's, but with a fancy interior ??

You should be in marketing.

The theory that sand driving is all about momentum is what is getting beaches closed to 4wds in the southwest.

On my car it's not the traction control but the stability control that is the problem when off road

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Mark _australia said..
Anyone who can make a garden variety live axle 4WD - completely old school drivetrain - but with a decent interior and at a reasonable price would sell them like hotcakes.

Don't need that flash interior stuff, just bring back proper 4wd's like the LJ50's!!
Forget the optional bits like doors, roof and even the wireless, they only mean extra weight

and while you are at it, crank out a few Mokes too,

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lotofwind said..
..... done many trips to dry soft sand islands in 4x4 with traction control and if you know your vehicle and what it can do and have the right tire pressure its not an issue....

I call bullsheet on that

The manufactures know that the high tech 4wd suit certain markets......most 4wds never leave the tarmac.

Even serious 4wds are "adapted" to the market....when Nissan put out the Patrol with a 4 cylinder turbo diesel....it went to 1st world countries as it met all the emission laws etc by using all the high tech add ons.

The hard 3rd world countries got the new body shape, but with the old 4.2 6 cyl turbo diesel that's been in production since the early 70's

4WD with live axles are still available in some brands. I believe some of the Jeeps like Wranglers still have live axles. Of course the Defenders which is suck in the 70/80 eras with its "modern-ish" internals. Do you know that the Defenders now have air-con, wide-wheel pack, two speed windscreen wipers, and metallic paint?

As much as some of us still think very highly of the live axles, independent axles are here to stay. The Pajaros are doing very well. The new Nissan Patrol G61 are good enough on sand, as proven by the Arabs using them on sand dunes. They are all petrol though.

How about the Hummers. They are all independent axles front and back. I believe many of the new Russian military 4WD have independent suspensions. If you know what the Russians are up to, you know they needed good 4WD in the mud bogs in Siberia in the summers.

Most of the 4wd utes are still rear axles at least but even thats changing too

Partly for that reason I just bought a ford ranger this year and yes its full of electronic gizmos like they all are but compared to my first 4wd - an FJ 40 landcruiser - ill take the increases in on road comfort and normal day to day reliability etc over the ability for some more often needed but doable bush mechanics any day.

Not too many places you are too far from help these days so extreme self reliance isnt the big deal it used to be and like was said most of the electronics has limp modes rather than full failure though they are a bitch when they are "limping" due to faulty sensors rather than an actual problem

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Bara said..
though they are a bitch when they are "limping" due to faulty sensors rather than an actual problem

Yes, time and tide of new technologies. Not too much one can do unless you wish to hold on to 4WD of 15-20 years old. I do.

I spoke with a traveler a few years ago about his Land Rover Discovery 3. He stopped for the night after he has done some 5,000 Km of trips within a few months. He told me that he did have problems with its bloody computer. It kept telling him a fault existed, but didn't say exactly what. The car still went OK, but he got worried.

After two visits to mechanics, and none were any help. He pulled into Geraldton for the local mechanical shop to take a third look. It was quickly diagnosed. It was a loose earth at the left tail light. Apparently it wasn't the first case this clever mechanic encountered.

Computers are great as they give you warnings before a total disaster occurs. But merely telling you that you have a problem, but not telling you what and why, doesn't give much confidence and comfort when you are thousand Km from town.

Talking about live axles I was only using that as an example of "simple"
Nothing against IFS and most have great articulation now. However IRS is an issue if towing lots.
As soon as you load up the rear of a vehicle with IRS, it squats and the rear wheel negative camber increases a lot. Thus if used for towing long distances they chop out the inside of the rear tyres prematurely.

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Agent nods said..


Nissan put out the Patrol with a 4 cylinder turbo diesel....it went to 1st world countries as it met all the emission laws etc by using all the high tech add ons.

and I could cheerfully throttle the mongrels at Nissan who cobbled that hi-tech mess together........

Shortly before Dad died his 'troll did the classic grenade - cost him near on 12k to get it rebuilt and back on the road.
I now have to sort out the inherent Nissan dodgy-ness, since family insist on me taking charge of "Dads 'troll".

: 3" exhaust bolted on, [original exhaust = excessive heat retained, contributing to turbo and engine damage.]

: boost and exhaust temp gauges installed, so I can scare myself with temp. and boost readings,

: At the moment, I'm chopping into the dodgy pneumatic turbo controls, and hooking in assorted manual override valves [so the engine will not under or over boost - either of which result in destroyed engines],

: Cobbling together a glow plug timer over-ride to limit them to 30 seconds [instead of the factory set 5 minutes, which eventually cracks cylinder heads and burns the tips off the glow plugs - making bits drop into the bore]

: engine run-on timer, so the turbo has a chance to wind down / cool down before it shuts off.

bound to be more stuff to do yet that hopefully makes it last a bit longer than "normal"

What really cheeses me off though, is Dad previously had an auto GU 'troll 6cyl. running on petrol / gas - which after a bit over 400000 klicks was checked over by RAC - who reported it was practically as-new, but Dad had been convinced by "experts" that he needed a diesel if he was going to do the Canning / Tanami etc.

^^^^ Also with them was the oil starvation problem. Extend your sump and bend the pickup down a bit.

This is my old truck .it's a 99 Diahatsu Rocky had the old oiler for 10 years now' she's IFS upfront coil back .these vechicals are bulletproof a Jap trait.It has taken me & my family to the best remote beaches all over the east coast.l thought about a new 4be but never brought one because of this law on emissions & pollution control.soft sand not a problem being a 2.8 I.T.D. l simply reduce tyre pressure chuck her in low range if needed & away l go.they don't build trucks like this anymore .

Tech or no tech, if you have the skills, experience and equipment fit for purpose you'll be right. Exceed your skill set or the capacity of your equipment you will fail. The root cause of the issues in the article mentioned is about people making poor decisions, even though the cocky critiques the equipment they use.

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gavnwend said..

This is my old truck .it's a 99 Diahatsu Rocky had the old oiler for 10 years now'

.they don't build trucks like this anymore .

Diahatsu 4WD is one of the best among the lot for its reliability and simplicity. I nearly bought one years ago but was not impressed by the internal space. I am like a snail. I carry my home with me.

In terms of reliability and strength, 4WD magazines have rated them extremely good.